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  1. #121
    I agree. I always thought that content creators who pushed for removal of borrowed power were wrong.

    The problem with BFA and Shadowlands was not the borrowed power itself but the bad implementation of it. In SL for example you had to grind conduits witch you will completely replace next season. In BFA you had too farm azerite armor witch you will replace.

    Renown system in SL was awfull too. It was basicly just a waiting simulator. You had to wait one week, make you chores in an hour, and then wait another week to do it again. This system was made to keep players log in every week, not to create meaningfull progression system.

    But when borrowed power was done right (in Legion) it was great. Blizzard (i guess) tried hard to make new borrowed power systems somehow different from Legion, does not matter how, but different, so people would not say: This is the same thing again. And by doing so they ended up "inventing a bicycle" for the second and third time in a row.
    Last edited by ZeroTool; 2023-10-04 at 02:12 PM.

  2. #122
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Having just base classes (talents + tier) makes the game super boring imo.
    Then make them good ? Your whole post makes no sense...

    How is putting a third system on top of 2 "bad ones" any better ?
    How is a team who allegedly made 2 bad system sudenly making a third but "good one this time we swear" ?

    If you want something better, make it better. Don't just add clutter on top of it, it just never works.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I don't understand... I see the usual suspects claiming that DF doesn't have any grinds whatsoever, that you are free to pursue any kind of activities at your own pace, that there are no mandatory grinds and in general, that DF is the best thing since sliced bread.

    Yep, that's what I like.
    I can pop in whenever without having to worry that I *have* to log in every day or I fall behind.
    Still grind gear either in M+ or raid or PVP, but otherwise reps are cosmetic and purely optional, which is neat.
    That's enough grind for me.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    The game could have literally just been WOTLK and new classes, and abilities added over time and it would have been perfect leave the talent trees as they were and I would love it to this day, it is why I play Classic after all. The second you killed a boss and it didn't drop loot off of it I was done with retail. Its just like Diablo all we have wanted for years was D2 with Better graphics and new classes and they keep screwing it up trying to improve on perfection.
    Exactly, what is this bizarre desire to improve on perfection? Sure some things are improved but there seems to be 0 accountability for poor design choices and they are rarely(if ever) reverted to past design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    Yep, that's what I like.
    I can pop in whenever without having to worry that I *have* to log in every day or I fall behind.
    Still grind gear either in M+ or raid or PVP, but otherwise reps are cosmetic and purely optional, which is neat.
    That's enough grind for me.
    I agree that's a good feeling, but it's still the FOMO of missing out on a month of trading post, or entering a new season simply waiting for the chill train of mid>end season to come uncapping point caps. Or conversely being in a hurry each week to get an upgrade is stressful especially with the knowledge that in 3 months time it didn't mean anything cuz of the catchup.

    Atleast the seasons are long right now so there's plenty of chill time after the 3 month waiting period ends.
    Last edited by nvaelz; 2023-10-04 at 02:30 PM.
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  5. #125
    Borrowed power from shitty mandatory systems was just bad because you'd just be forced into them.
    And lol at people defining MMOs with grinds.
    What would be better is to also get the tier sets removed and instead have something like corruptions, just not as ridiculous and imbalanced.

  6. #126
    Borrowed power and grinds were often connected, but they're not the same thing, and they don't have to work the same way.

    Grinds aren't a problem per se. "Mandatory" grinds are, by which we mean grinds that offer a reward so substantial you cannot be competitive at most levels without it. Those are a problem because it doesn't give players a choice - it's do this, or you're gimping yourself for all to see. These are not 0.1% advantages, but are much more significant than that. Grinds like that are generally considered bad, because they burn people out and make even otherwise enjoyable things feel like chores. That being said, they aren't always or universally bad, and there's gradation within what constitutes a "grind", too - one might argue gearing is a grind, for example, but that's a very different grind from, say, "do 250 Island Expeditions to reach the next AP level" or whatever.

    Optional grinds are different, too, and far less of a problem. By which we mean grinds that offer rewards that are either not significant enough to really impact competitiveness (those 0.1% advantages) or that offer rewards that don't impact performance at all, lime cosmetics etc. Those can usually exist just fine because people who want to do them have the option, while everyone else can simply ignore them and not really be affected in any kind of meaningful way. But this of course means FAR fewer people do them, which raises the question of how well development resources are being spent if it's on content almost nobody ever does.

    It's not an easy situation to straddle, and not an easy problem to solve. But it's definitely a lot more complex than borrowed power=grind, or all grinds=bad.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    snip
    No what I'm seeing from your post is that you want some sort of progressive power that builds each week with minimal effort. The problem is that makes it too "mandatory" for the rest of us.

    I'd rather have what we have in DF now than the AP crap we had to deal with in Legion/BFA
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Yes, how borrowed powers were implemented was not good - grinds are generally unwelcome/unhealthy.

    BUT

    Having just base classes (talents + tier) makes the game super boring imo.

    If you ignore how they were obtained and any imbalances, weren't Essences and Corruption actually really cool? Big beams blasting, tentacles, kiss/curse corruption, melee slappers, Lucid dreams for casters, etc.

    Class and Spec talents just feel extremely bland right now - just tons of passives and no exciting buttons to press.

    Having a new borrowed power each patch, all ramping up together into GIGA mode in the final season of the expansion was a cool power fantasy ramp up. And wouldnt feel bad to be removed next expansion if something similar, fun and temporary was added instead.

    Corruptions allowed for massive customizations, Essence abilities felt powerful and satisfactory to press. Current specs all play the same and even with some minor variety of a rotation or a passive, there is nothing EXCITING in them, IMO.
    I agree, but people don't realise grind is part of the mechanic to keep you playing. They can't cause you to endlessly level, so you have to level in some way.

    What most people didn't want was to "have to play constantly "to keep, which is exactly what blizzard want so you subscribe to their game, they have to give you something to do.

    However thanks to some youtubers, everyone got it in their head that it was terrible because they had to play, and because they started quitting precisely because of it. They got convinced that straining for continuous power was so tiring it was worthy of quitting, this is inducement... someone said it was, and explained why it was, and all their followers started feeling the same way because of it.

    Was their some truth? yes, but it didn't match, most of these players would have played on if you continually gave interesting things.

    For example, if you gave Dragonflight, with borruowed power, with the proper catch up mechanisms, they would.,

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    If you ignore how they were obtained and any imbalances, weren't Essences and Corruption actually really cool? Big beams blasting, tentacles, kiss/curse corruption, melee slappers, Lucid dreams for casters, etc.
    No they weren't. 99% of the time you used the same shit and most of them weren't usable because of massive nerfs from the world first assholes. Most of them were the passive stat increases for almost every spec in the game. But no the concept wasn't cool because they ruined it themselves instead of letting it be fun, just like everything the dev team touches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I agree, but people don't realise grind is part of the mechanic to keep you playing. They can't cause you to endlessly level, so you have to level in some way.
    What a shit take lmao. If the game is good, people will play it. We have the evidence for this with how BC and Wrath had the largest growth the game ever had. There were no "power gains" that you had to grind for. It encouraged alt play without you feeling punished like how ANY kind of recent expansion has. I say again, if the game is good, people will play. But they don't even have a good foundation anymore because they ruined their lore, they cater to the .01% for raids and M+, and the world content they do add is bland and completable in less than a couple hours after the content releases.
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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Gear isnt really borrowed, because every season you basically regrind the same gear with different colors, but end up with the same stats and doing dmg the exact same way. Tier bonuses and trinkets are too inconsequential and passive, similar to class and spec talents.
    That's exactly what borrowed power entails though.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    the world content they do add is bland and completable in less than a couple hours after the content releases.
    And given how unrewarding it usually is, it should be no surprise that it's dead in the water in a couple of weeks. Which also begs the question of who are they actually designing that @#%& for.
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  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Itori View Post
    Borrowed powers are heavily regarded as a bad addition to WoW because it created an unnecessary grind, Grinding to increase a borrowed power just to have it taken away the next expansion.

    The only way it would have been a great addition is if they went the FFXIV route and used it as a catch up mechanic and something to collect and show off later.
    A grind is a grind though lol. It has always existed in MMOs. Instead of the borrowed power, its Mythic + all day every day across 5 + toons. Id rather have something engaging that has a tangible return vs 'hurr durr +20 key today". At least the borrowed power systems they have had in the past provided some more content to do.

  13. #133
    Borrowed powers were better than what we have now with a billion different currencies which are just a new form of alt focused borrowed powers.

    The gap between a newbie and someone new is just as bad as ever even if alt gearing has improved.

    Go back to the BfA system for gearing. Update all the world events so they provide equivalent gear and can eventually get you to normal mode raiding like they could in BfA with a long slow grind still available through them to get you a couple of heroic raid level gear. Bring back emissaries.

    Make LFR drop normal mode gear level. Let normal mode organized raiding still be a thing if people want.

    Solo queue bgs are awesome but the barrier for entry even 2-3 weeks later into a patch is absolutely massive for both pve and pvp. Something needs to help shorten it and the only way is the above with faster gearing available for newbies. This will NOT effect the seasoned vets or those with alts. They'll still have all their catch up.

    Consolidate all of the currencies to two; one for normal mode gearing one for eventual heroic raid level gear. Same for PvP.
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  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    a billion different currencies which are just a new form of alt focused borrowed powers.
    quite the long-winded way to say that you have no clue what borrowed power even means

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Consolidate all of the currencies to two
    yes, but this is anything but borrowed power.
    Last edited by Flaim; 2023-10-04 at 08:06 PM.

  15. #135
    aside from hardcore mythic raiders or key pushers the rest of you are just liars. there was no need to be online 24/7 farming ap. you just couldnt stop yourselves from doing it, at least be honest about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    And given how unrewarding it usually is, it should be no surprise that it's dead in the water in a couple of weeks. Which also begs the question of who are they actually designing that @#%& for.
    what you have to understand is that the folks that made wow big are gone and you have to accept that. fudge knows who their target audience is anymore. the game lost its cool vibe after legion tbh and the final knife in the heart was the butchering of established lore in SL. its 3 bad expansions in a row now, im not keeping my hopes up anymore.
    There is a void in my heart. Have you come to fill it?

  16. #136
    Borrowed power was bad and is still bad one of the few good things with DF was the talent system.

  17. #137
    Borrowed power hasn't been removed, tier sets are still in the game, and busted trinkets are still in the game.

  18. #138
    So some of my friends and I we have this thing. Its a little theory. We call it "As we get closer to launch".

    Its a theory we proposed that as we get closer to a major announcement or release, especially for World of Warcraft, MMOChampion, the Official Forums, Reddit, and WOWHead experience what I would like to call a dumbening where the quality of the posts, the replies to the posts, and the thread titles just get so outlandishly off the wall insane, sometimes even stupid, that you have to attribute the posts existence to the excitement surrounding the imminent announcement or release.

    Why have I described this in this thread today? You may choose your own reasons.

  19. #139
    I'm glad they removed those fake grinds designed to keep the addicts playing and instead started focusing on normal people, tier sets are enough, they just need to be more impactful rotationally.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    While it is true that plenty of people operate like that, bear in mind that not everyone turns into a sulky conformist in fear of rejection (especially in games). Read: yeah, there were people who customized the shit out of it, sorry you missed the fun.
    Lmao, okay dude. If that's the case then there's still plenty of customization in the game - you can wear all grey gear and play a "no stats" build if you want.

    I'd put money on me having had more slots with more corruptions to choose from than you, I just don't think that deciding whether you want "big laser beam but dodge the ghosts and circles" or "lots of haste but dodge the ghosts and circles" is actually customization. Not to mention the fact that for the vast majority of its existence corrupted gear was a cesspit of RNG and you couldn't choose how your 'customization' was actually going to go, or that you had to do a mindless timewaster scenario over and over again to entitle yourself to use any of it.

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