More specs or more classes?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So according to the book the Dracthyr is...... what exactly?

I think I'll stick to the developer statements. They make more sense.

There Dracthyr what do you even mean?

Like the first elf also wasn't mortal, or a troll nor like any race this world had ever seen as it was the first, are all elfs now actually trolls because the first one a new race?

and any way it's a moot point, I was contesting that the lore never said they weren't a type of dragon and that's objectively wrong the lore explicitly and irrefutably says they are in fact not dragons.

[Ielenia]

So according to the book the Dracthyr is...... what exactly?

According to the book, the dracthyrs are not dragons, but something else.

I think I'll stick to the developer statements. They make more sense.

Oh, so you'll accept that dracthyr are just draconic hybrids?

[Triceron]

You should read what Lorgar posted. If anything it leads to nowhere. Which is exactly where you'll end up if you blindly follow lore instead of common sense.

I mean, what other common sense do you need to acknowledge that Dracthyr are a unique race that is not directly equatable to any one pre-existing one?

So according to the book the Dracthyr is...... what exactly?

They are Dracthyr.

What exactly are you confused about here? Do you need to equate it to an existing race like Elves and Dwarves in order to understand what they are?

Just like if you asked what are Goblins, you don't need to quantify comparing them to other existing races like Orcs or Ogres or Gnomes. They're Goblins, dimunitive greenskinned beings that are known to be native to Kezan.

[Teriz]

Why can't warriors throw their shields? They have shields. Why can't mages call a rain of fire? They have fire magic. Why can't paladins dual-wield weapons? They have two hands. Why can't monks wear plate? Why can't rogues use two-handed axes? Why can't mages use polearms? Etc, etc. Gameplay decisions.

Moving goalposts once again....

But if you want me to guess a reason? It's easy: their wings are too weak to sustain flight, therefore they're too weak to create a gust of wind powerful enough to push people away.

More likely Blizzard associated Wing Buffet with dragons and gave it to the dragon class.

You argue that a character doesn't have to represent the entire spec of a class, or even be that class. By that logic, you're arguing that Varian is a representative of the paladin class because part of its ret spec concept is weapon fighting, which Varian embodies.

Uh to be a representative of a class you should at least have some of that class' abilities. I'm not aware of Varian having any Paladin abilities.

That is the popular media's description of the necromancer, and what people expects when they hear the term 'necromancer'.


You're talking about Diablo. Diablo is not Warcraft.

I'm talking about Blizzard who makes both Warcraft and Diablo. The point is that a Necromancer doesn't need to be ranged to be a necromancer. Being ranged is optional as displayed both by Xal and by the DK class.

No. No, you can't.

Wow, so in your view you're not fighting in WoW unless you're doing a full rotation?

... What do you think "popular media" is, Teriz? Do you think "media" refers exclusively to MMORPGs? Newsflash: it doesn't. 'Popular media' encompasses all genres of games, comics, books, shows and movies that are-- shock of all shocks-- popular.

You didn't say popular media, you said fantasy RPG trope.

No, you said "you have to be a dragon to breathe fire", which is a false statement since: a) dracthyr are not dragons yet they breathe fire; b) Yu-Lon has a 'dragon breath' but is not a dragon; and c) monks are also not dragon but they show that you can breathe fire, regardless if you're using alcohol, or magic.


"No lore in the game", he says, when 99% of the NPCs your dracthyr interacts with calls them "dracthyr", not dragon. "No lore in the game" he says, when the tablets in the dracthyr's starting zone calls them draconic hybrids. "No lore in the game" he says, when you can see a vision of Neltharion in the Waking Shore when he has the idea of mix dragon essence with the essence of mortals.

I'm still waiting for you to provide a single developer stating that Dracthyr aren't dragons. Over a year since their debut, you've never provided that quote. Meanwhile I've provided multiple examples of devs literally saying that the Dracthyr are dragons.

And since you won't provide that quote, and since I tire of posters like yourself arguing headcanon in the face of facts (and since this isn't even on topic), it's best to let the topic of what the Dracthyr are rest. Feel free to have the last word.

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I mean, what other common sense do you need to acknowledge that Dracthyr are a unique race that is not directly equatable to any one pre-existing one?

So you're saying that in all of fantasy there is no equivalent to a magical, fire-breathing, and winged reptilian race?

They are Dracthyr.

What exactly are you confused about here? Do you need to equate it to an existing race like Elves and Dwarves in order to understand what they are?

Just like if you asked what are Goblins, you don't need to quantify comparing them to other existing races like Orcs or Ogres or Gnomes. They're Goblins, dimunitive greenskinned beings that are known to be native to Kezan.

The difference here is that the Goblin race isn't solely interlocked with the powerset of a mythological creature, and given racials and physiological attributes that completely align with said mythological creature.

[Triceron]

So you're saying that in all of fantasy there is no equivalent to a magical, fire-breathing, and winged reptilian race?

Depends on what you mean by equivalent

Dracthyr, Dragons and the god-like Bahamut all fit that description, yet are not equivalent to each other.

The difference here is that the Goblin race isn't solely interlocked with the powerset of a mythological creature, and given racials and physiological attributes that completely align with said mythological creature.

Because the Goblins weren't engineered to be a perfect soldier with those capabilities. Dracthyr are, which explains why they have similar characteristics to said mythological creatures.


I'm not sure why you're hung up on trying to prove they are one and the same. You can accept that Blood Elves and Void Elves are different races despite having a shared history and many similarities, right? Yet you can't accept that Dracthyr are a unique race unto themselves? I have to question why.

[Teriz]

We're clearly talking about a race that has explicit lore explaining that they are not equivalent to any single pre-existing race or creature. I'm not sure where you're confused.

A race or creature that is reptilian, fire breathing, magical, and has wings.... Hmmm where have I seen that before in fantasy?

Oh yeah...

I'm not sure why you're hung up on trying to prove they are one and the same. You can accept that Blood Elves and Void Elves are different races despite having a shared history and many similarities, right?

Yeah, which is why they're both elves.....

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. Back to talking about future classes and/or specs.

[Triceron]

A race or creature that is reptilian, fire breathing, magical, and has wings.... Hmmm where have I seen that before in fantasy?

Oh yeah...

Hey cool, I can post pictures of magical fire breathing winged reptilians too!

Let's see, we got the Rylaks in Draenor



Dragonhawks of Quel'thalas



The wyvern Rathalos from Monster Hunter



The firebreathing Pterosaur, Rodan



The malevolent fairy, Maleficent



and Mushu from Disney's Mulan



So which are one were you looking for an equivalent to?

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. Back to talking about future classes and/or specs.

Guess we won't know which one you were actually talking about :/

[Lorgar Aurelian]

A race or creature that is reptilian, fire breathing, magical, and has wings.... Hmmm where have I seen that before in fantasy?

Oh yeah...

Purple skinned humanoid with pointy ears and worships the moon.

Obviously a elf.

[Teriz]

Specs.

Ultimately, if you want new classes all you really want to see is new colors on your Details meter. Its not really surprising given the state of education right now though that people would prefer it that way. There is no downside to new specs, there are many downsides to new classes

I want a new class because none of the current classes can house a tech-based class. That said, once we get that, there won’t be much need for anymore new classes because pretty much every archetype will be filled. At that point I could see Blizzard pushing out specs or a more robust heroic talent system.

[Ielenia]

Moving goalposts once again....

Do you even know what "moving goalposts" mean? Your argument was "why can't X class do Y? They have Z!" I just literally used your argument on other classes to show that it's all a gameplay decision.

More likely Blizzard associated Wing Buffet with dragons and gave it to the dragon class.

Which is an argument easily debunkable by going to WoWhead, searching for "wing buffet", and realizing the myriad of non-dragon creatures that use that ability, proving that the claim that "Blizzard thinks 'wing buffet' is a dragon ability" is nothing but bull.

Uh to be a representative of a class you should at least have some of that class' abilities. I'm not aware of Varian having any Paladin abilities.

Varian can swing a sword and wield a shield, just like paladins. "But Varian does not have Holy abilities!" you might say, and yeah, Alexstrasza does not have any blue dragon magic either. You can't be a representative of a class if you can't even represent a single spec of said class. That's the point I'm trying to make here.

I'm talking about Blizzard who makes both Warcraft and Diablo.

And Diablo is not Warcraft. That is not a concept hard to understand, I hope. After all, the Diablo demon hunter is not an elf who consumed and absorbed the essence of demons, using their powers alongside a pair of warglaives. It's just a rogue dual-wielding hand crossbows and utilizing gadgets such as traps and bombs. The Diablo monk is not a fighter that utilizes the power of chi, brews and mists, but one that utilizes the power of holy magic. Mages in Diablo fully utilize the power of lightning, unlike the Warcraft mage.

The point is that a Necromancer doesn't need to be ranged to be a necromancer. Being ranged is optional as displayed both by Xal and by the DK class.

The death knight class does not have a "ranged" option. Stop trying to lie. That's like saying mages have a "melee mage" option because they have auto-attack.

Wow, so in your view you're not fighting in WoW unless you're doing a full rotation?

I'm not going to answer strawman stupidity I've already addressed several times over.

I'm still waiting for you to provide a single developer stating that Dracthyr aren't dragons. Over a year since their debut, you've never provided that quote.

I've already done so. Several times over, throughout the entire year since the dracthyr were announced, because they said so in the very same Deep Dive video of the announcement, they explain how dracthyr came to be, how they are the result of hybridization by mixing dragon essence with mortal essence.

Meanwhile I've provided multiple examples of devs literally saying that the Dracthyr are dragons.

While completely ignoring the context of all that likely being hype speech to get people excited to try the newest expansion...

And since you won't provide that quote,

If only you would take your head out of the sand and actually honestly engage with posters.

[Teriz]

Do you even know what "moving goalposts" mean? Your argument was "why can't X class do Y? They have Z!" I just literally used your argument on other classes to show that it's all a gameplay decision.

No, the argument was that if Wing Buffet is only about having wings, why doesn't the other class with wings also have that ability? Your counter argument would only make sense if someone made the argument that any class with shields should have a shield throwing ability. No one said that. YOU implied that creatures with wings get Wing Buffet.

Which is an argument easily debunkable by going to WoWhead, searching for "wing buffet", and realizing the myriad of non-dragon creatures that use that ability, proving that the claim that "Blizzard thinks 'wing buffet' is a dragon ability" is nothing but bull.

Unless of course the ability is coming from HotS instead of WoW, which is supported by the fact that Evokers got far more abilities from HotS than they did from older iterations of WoW.

Varian can swing a sword and wield a shield, just like paladins. "But Varian does not have Holy abilities!" you might say, and yeah, Alexstrasza does not have any blue dragon magic either. You can't be a representative of a class if you can't even represent a single spec of said class. That's the point I'm trying to make here.

So any class that can swing a weapon or use a shield is using Paladin abilities? I suppose we've just reached a new level of silliness from you.

As for Evokers, their specs are combos of 2 or more Dragonflights, so of course no single dragon is going to represent their entire spec. That doesn't alter the fact that dragons like Alexstraza, Kalecgos, Chromie, Ysera, etc. are standard bearers of that class.

And Diablo is not Warcraft. That is not a concept hard to understand, I hope. After all, the Diablo demon hunter is not an elf who consumed and absorbed the essence of demons, using their powers alongside a pair of warglaives. It's just a rogue dual-wielding hand crossbows and utilizing gadgets such as traps and bombs. The Diablo monk is not a fighter that utilizes the power of chi, brews and mists, but one that utilizes the power of holy magic. Mages in Diablo fully utilize the power of lightning, unlike the Warcraft mage.

You're missing the point that if Blizzard is willing to create a melee Necromancer in any of their games, that means to Blizzard a Necromancer can in fact be melee. Which means that while you may not view a melee character as being capable of being a necromancer, Blizzard clearly does. Hence the Death Knight class being WoW's necromancer class.

The death knight class does not have a "ranged" option. Stop trying to lie. That's like saying mages have a "melee mage" option because they have auto-attack.

I mean "optional" as in a Necromancer can be either melee or ranged. As shown by Xul, LK, and Death Knights; Melee characters and classes that are melee necromancers.

I'm not going to answer strawman stupidity I've already addressed several times over.

Okie dokie.

[Ielenia]

No, the argument was that if Wing Buffet is only about having wings, why doesn't the other class with wings also have that ability? Your counter argument would only make sense if someone made the argument that any class with shields should have a shield throwing ability. No one said that. YOU implied that creatures with wings get Wing Buffet.

I didn't say "creatures with wings get Wing Buffet". I said that any creature with wings can get that ability, which is proven right by taking a simple look at the WoWHead search for the ability and seeing many, many non-dragon creatures with that ability. Once again, this removes more and more doubts about your willingness to have an honest conversation, as you never, ever properly represented my arguments, not even once.

Besides, if we go by that logic, if "wing buffet" is a dragon ability, why do we have dragons without that ability?

Unless of course the ability is coming from HotS instead of WoW,

Which you not only can't prove it is, but I can argue that it's not, because "wing buffet" in HotS is an upgrade to an already existing ability "flame buffet" that is triggered when Alexstrasza uses her transformation cooldown, and not a standalone ability like it is in WoW. None of your dracthyr or evoker abilities are replaced by 'wing buffet' when you change into dracthyr form. So, no, the dracthyr's "wing buffet" ability is not the same as HotS Alexstrsza ability of the same name.

So any class that can swing a sword or use a shield is using Paladin abilities? I suppose we've just reached a new level of silliness from you.

Except I never said that. The only "new levels of silliness" being reached here are your strawmen. The more I correct you, the worse you get.

As for Evokers, their specs are combos of 2 or more Dragonflights,

Which completely disqualifies all dragonflights from being a representative of the class. Because none of them embody even a single spec of the class.

You're missing the point that if Blizzard is willing to create a melee Necromancer in any of their games, that means to Blizzard a Necromancer can in fact be melee.

But they did not do that for their Warcraft franchise. The necromancer in Warcraft is decidedly ranged. Again: go to WoWHead and search for 'necromancer', and count how many actual melee necromancers you find, in the myriad of ranged spellcasting necromancers.

Which means that while you may not view a melee character as being capable of being a necromancer, Blizzard clearly does.

Not for Warcraft, they don't.

Hence the Death Knight class being WoW's necromancer class.

No, WoW's death knight class is WoW's death knight class. What you're doing is the same as saying the paladin is WoW's priest class.

I mean "optional" as in a Necromancer can be either melee or ranged. As shown by Xul, LK, and Death Knights; Melee characters and classes that are melee necromancers.

It''s not optional. Stop lying. WoW death knights do not have an "optional ranged mode".

[Teriz]

I didn't say "creatures with wings get Wing Buffet". I said that any creature with wings can get that ability, which is proven right by taking a simple look at the WoWHead search for the ability and seeing many, many non-dragon creatures with that ability.

So why don't Demon Hunters have that ability?

Which you not only can't prove it is, but I can argue that it's not, because "wing buffet" in HotS is an upgrade to an already existing ability "flame buffet" that is triggered when Alexstrasza uses her transformation cooldown, and not a standalone ability like it is in WoW. None of your dracthyr or evoker abilities are replaced by 'wing buffet' when you change into dracthyr form. So, no, the dracthyr's "wing buffet" ability is not the same as HotS Alexstrsza ability of the same name.

Evokers turn into dragons when they use Wing buffet. It's a Dracthyr form only ability, just like Wing Buffet is a dragon form only ability under Alexstraza.

Except I never said that. The only "new levels of silliness" being reached here are your strawmen. The more I correct you, the worse you get.

Uh that's what you're literally saying. You're trying to equate Varian swinging a sword and a shield being a paladin attribute (pro tip: It's not a Paladin attribute) with Alexstraza having abilities in the Evoker class.

Yes, it's complete silliness on your part.

Which completely disqualifies all dragonflights from being a representative of the class. Because none of them embody even a single spec of the class.

Except Dragonflights are mentioned in the specs themselves. So how can the dragonflights be disqualified from representing the class when the class references them directly?

But they did not do that for their Warcraft franchise. The necromancer in Warcraft is decidedly ranged. Again: go to WoWHead and search for 'necromancer', and count how many actual melee necromancers you find, in the myriad of ranged spellcasting necromancers.

Death Knights are Necromancers on steroids. Which is why they have the Necromancer WC3 abilities.

Not for Warcraft, they don't.

Again, Death Knights. They have the Necromancer unit's abilities from WC3.

No, WoW's death knight class is WoW's death knight class. What you're doing is the same as saying the paladin is WoW's priest class.

Well no because we have a Paladin class and we have a Priest class. Blizzard themselves said they took the Necromancer concept and rolled it into the DK class, so it's not the same situation.

It''s not optional. Stop lying. WoW death knights do not have an "optional ranged mode".

Again you're confused. I'm saying that in RPGs there are melee necromancers and ranged necromancers. The combat range doesn't determine what is or is not a necromancer. Blizzard has shown this both with Xul in HotS and with the Death Knight in WC and WoW.

[Ielenia]

So why don't Demon Hunters have that ability?

Did you even read what I wrote? Oh, what a silly question. Of course not. You're just looking for things to argue against. And if you can't find any, you create strawmen. After all, that's your M.O.

Again, I already gave you one possible explanation why. Not to mention that not all winged creatures get that ability. Hell, not even all dragons have that ability.

Evokers turn into dragons when they use Wing buffet. It's a Dracthyr form only ability, just like Wing Buffet is a dragon form only ability under Alexstraza.

That's not the same thing though, and I've already explained why. But, in the highly unlikelihood of you actually reading what people are writing, I'll repeat it: the dracthyr's Wing Buffet ability of the same name is not the same as HotS Alexstrsza ability of the same name, because Alexstrasza's ability is an upgrade to an already existing ability, which replaces said ability, while the dracthyr's Wing Buffet ability does not replace any other existing ability. Alextrasza also cannot use 'wing buffet' in visage form, while the dracthyr can, even if it immediately transforms them back into dracthyr form. Alexstrasza must first actively use her 2.5 minute cooldown ability to turn into a dragon and THEN use 'wing buffet', while at the same time losing access to the 'flame buffet' ability.

Uh that's what you're literally saying.

No, that is what the strawman you constructed is saying.

You're trying to equate Varian swinging a sword and a shield being a paladin attribute

Is it not? Wearing heavy armor and wielding weapons and/or shield are indeed attributes of the paladin concept. It's literally what separates them from just being priests.

Except Dragonflights are mentioned in the specs themselves.

Because they have their magic artificially grafted into them. What you're doing is saying druids are plants (because their power come from nature), or that shamans are elementals (because their powers come from elementals).

So how can the dragonflights be disqualified from representing the class when the class references them directly?

I'll repeat: because none of them are evokers. Because none of them represents even a single spec of the class.

Death Knights are Necromancers on steroids.

And paladins are priests on steroids, yet both classes exist separately.

Again, Death Knights. They have the Necromancer unit's abilities from WC3.

What? The "unholy frenzy" ability? Not only they don't have it anymore, but that is not a defining feature of the concept. Do you perhaps mean the ability to raise the dead? Well, paladins share the priest's abilities of healing with holy magic, and both classes co-exist simultaneously.

Well no because we have a Paladin class and we have a Priest class.

Which is proof-positive that two classes that share a theme can co-exist.

Blizzard themselves said they took the Necromancer concept and rolled it into the DK class, so it's not the same situation.

They literally did not say that. They said they took the ideas they were thinking in using for the runemaster and necromancer class and put them in the class. At no point they said they're merging the DK and necromancer concepts into one.

Again you're confused. I'm saying that in RPGs there are melee necromancers and ranged necromancers.

And what other RPGs do has no bearing on Warcraft, because the necromancer concept in WoW is firmly set as a ranged spellcaster, and it's a concept that has been repeatedly reinforced from Vanilla all the way to today. Whenever new necromancers are added into the game, they're always ranged casters, not melee fighters.

[Teriz]

That's not the same thing though, and I've already explained why. But, in the highly unlikelihood of you actually reading what people are writing, I'll repeat it: the dracthyr's Wing Buffet ability of the same name is not the same as HotS Alexstrsza ability of the same name, because Alexstrasza's ability is an upgrade to an already existing ability, which replaces said ability, while the dracthyr's Wing Buffet ability does not replace any other existing ability. Alextrasza also cannot use 'wing buffet' in visage form, while the dracthyr can, even if it immediately transforms them back into dracthyr form. Alexstrasza must first actively use her 2.5 minute cooldown ability to turn into a dragon and THEN use 'wing buffet', while at the same time losing access to the 'flame buffet' ability.

The ability was simply modified for WoW. That happens all the time when abilities are moved from RTS or MOBAs into the MMO. For example, Force of Nature doesn't require a tree. Bloodlust isn't a toggle. Raise Dead isn't a toggle, doesn't create two skeletons and doesn't require corpses. Evasion isn't a passive. Metamorphosis is a melee demon instead of a ranged demon that lobs fireballs.

In short, the abilities are altered constantly for balance or mechanic purposes. This isn't something that began with the Evoker class.

No, that is what the strawman you constructed is saying.


Is it not? Wearing heavy armor and wielding weapons and/or shield are indeed attributes of the paladin concept. It's literally what separates them from just being priests.

Crazy how you say that I'm straw-manning you and then in the very next response you say exactly what I claimed you said.

Because they have their magic artificially grafted into them. What you're doing is saying druids are plants (because their power come from nature), or that shamans are elementals (because their powers come from elementals).

Yeah, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that Blizzard created a class so that players can play as dragons with dragonflight abilities. Which is why Alexstraza (And the other dragonflight dragons) represents the class. They're literally where the concept came from.

I'll repeat: because none of them are evokers. Because none of them represents even a single spec of the class.

And yet again the dragonflights are mentioned throughout the class. Your denial is indeed not just a river in Egypt.

And paladins are priests on steroids, yet both classes exist separately.

Not really, since Priests can also wield Shadow magic.

What? The "unholy frenzy" ability? Not only they don't have it anymore, but that is not a defining feature of the concept. Do you perhaps mean the ability to raise the dead? Well, paladins share the priest's abilities of healing with holy magic, and both classes co-exist simultaneously.

That's a false equivalence, since DKs have multiple abilities where they raise and control the dead. Meanwhile, Priests and Paladins have very different abilities in general which justify there being two different classes.

They literally did not say that. They said they took the ideas they were thinking in using for the runemaster and necromancer class and put them in the class. At no point they said they're merging the DK and necromancer concepts into one.

You're free to pull up the interview and use whatever semantic gymnastics you wish. The simply fact of the matter is that necromancer class was literally absorbed into the DK class in WotLK, and those themes have been expanded on expansion after expansion.

And what other RPGs do has no bearing on Warcraft, because the necromancer concept in WoW is firmly set as a ranged spellcaster, and it's a concept that has been repeatedly reinforced from Vanilla all the way to today. Whenever new necromancers are added into the game, they're always ranged casters, not melee fighters.

Well the RPG in question is WoW, since Xul was largely based on the DK class.

[Nightshade711]

Tbh I think the gameplay/mechanics concept behind Necromancers exists with Warlocks. I haven’t really seen a concept that made them that different from Warlocks except for the visuals.
If blizzard really wanted to they could make it a hero talent thing to reskin demons to undead but they won’t.

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Tinker would be cool but I could see Blizzard pulling the rug out from under us again and introducing an entirely new class out of nowhere.

I could see them doing something akin to Bard, or maybe they’d expand the whole “Void Hunter” concept w/ Alleria and introduce them so we can have another ranged class that actually uses ranged weapons.

[Teriz]

Tbh I think the gameplay/mechanics concept behind Necromancers exists with Warlocks. I haven’t really seen a concept that made them that different from Warlocks except for the visuals.
If blizzard really wanted to they could make it a hero talent thing to reskin demons to undead but they won’t.

Warlocks are definitely a summoner class, which removes a Necromancer niche. Death Knights however have the Necromancer theme of raising and controlling the undead. Taken together, they remove a lane for a Necromancer class to exist in.

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Tinker would be cool but I could see Blizzard pulling the rug out from under us again and introducing an entirely new class out of nowhere.

I could see them doing something akin to Bard, or maybe they’d expand the whole “Void Hunter” concept w/ Alleria and introduce them so we can have another ranged class that actually uses ranged weapons.

I don’t know why people think Evokers came out of nowhere. People in this forum predicted a race/class dragon class based on the dragonflights when the hints of a dragon expansion emerged.

As for Tinkers, their inclusion is inevitable. It’s the last unique archetype that isn’t in the class lineup, and there really isn’t much left in terms of remaining WC heroes to pull classes from. The Tinker class will likely be Tank, DPS, and Heal/Support.

Every other class concept can be attached to existing specs /classes.