More specs or more classes?

[Teriz]

You don't even play DH, so not like that opinion really matters. You're just criticizing based on your impressions of a class you won't ever play seriously. The argument itself is apples and oranges. You might as well say all classes feel incomplete compared to Druids since they don't have 4+ specs.

That feeling of incompleteness is purely subjective.

And yet we have DH players requesting a third spec on a constant basis. Even moreso since Augmentation's reveal.

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy DH tears. However, it's rather hard not to notice the constant whining.

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The problem is even if blizzard releases two spec classes they aren't going to add more classes at a faster pace we'll just get less content

I believe that three spec is the norm. Demon Hunters were just gimped with a very shallow design space. I highly doubt we're getting a 2 spec class again.

[Gimlix]

"New class" is a selling point of an expansion. "New specs?" Not so much.

Depends. If you make a brand new spec with talent tree and actual new skills, then new specs on all classes any day over a new class.

[Wildberry]

I wouldn't say DH feels incomplete. The class more or less feels fine. I have to assume that the desire for a third spec is motivated, at least somewhat, by people who want to play DH DPS, but dislike Momentum, which is a perfectly understandable position.

Still, overall I think new classes make more sense than more specs. The only "New Spec" I can think of that I'd actually be excited about would be giving Blood DK the "Feral/Guardian" treatment and bringing back Blood DPS. However, given how far removed Classes are from their WotLK iterations, I doubt it'd actually be as fun as it used to be.

[Swnem]

Personally i would prefer new classes with new ways to play the game rather than new specs which are just variations if what we already got.

[Triceron]

And yet we have DH players requesting a third spec on a constant basis. Even moreso since Augmentation's reveal.

Not sure if you've noticed, in this very thread you have people asking for 4th specs too. And just entering this topic at all, each and every person in this discussion has a level of expectation that isn't met by what the game already satisfies. That's the whole reason people are discussing the prospects of more specs or more classes. They aren't complete.

It plays into the exact narrative that you're trying to peddle, that certain people will always feel the classes don't feel complete until they have 4+ specs. 'Incompleteness' isn't really ever going to be satisfied as long as people have different bars of expectation beyond what the game already provides.

Even now, there are players who want Death Knights to get actual mounted combat, which is actually being talked about with the Riders of the Apocalypse Hero Talents that were unveiled for War Within. Are we actually going to get mounted combat? Probably not. But there are people out there who feel the DK is incomplete until it happens, and that's just the way things are.

I mean even when the devs talk about the prospects of creating new Support specs and brought up the Shaman as an example... that immediately opens up the idea that the Shaman is incomplete because the devs went down that rabbit hole.

[Ielenia]

And yet we have DH players requesting a third spec on a constant basis. Even moreso since Augmentation's reveal.

But we do have players of all classes wanting fourth specs on a constant basis. Did you forget about shaman players wanting a tank spec? Paladins wanting a ranged holy spec? Warriors want Gladiator back as a spec. Etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy DH tears. However, it's rather hard not to notice the constant whining.

Seems rather an ironic statement coming from someone who's been asking for a tinker class longer than people have been asking for fourth specs, or worse, longer than DH players wanting a third spec.

[Teriz]

Not sure if you've noticed, in this very thread you have people asking for 4th specs too. And just entering this topic at all, each and every person in this discussion has a level of expectation that isn't met by what the game already satisfies. That's the whole reason people are discussing the prospects of more specs or more classes. They aren't complete.

It plays into the exact narrative that you're trying to peddle, that certain people will always feel the classes don't feel complete until they have 4+ specs. 'Incompleteness' isn't really ever going to be satisfied as long as people have different bars of expectation beyond what the game already provides.

Even now, there are players who want Death Knights to get actual mounted combat, which is actually being talked about with the Riders of the Apocalypse Hero Talents that were unveiled for War Within. Are we actually going to get mounted combat? Probably not. But there are people out there who feel the DK is incomplete until it happens, and that's just the way things are.

I mean even when the devs talk about the prospects of creating new Support specs and brought up the Shaman as an example... that immediately opens up the idea that the Shaman is incomplete because the devs went down that rabbit hole.

Except 4th specs are viewed as a nice to have. DH is being viewed as gimped and unfairly treated because it lacks a third spec by DH players.

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But we do have players of all classes wanting fourth specs on a constant basis. Did you forget about shaman players wanting a tank spec? Paladins wanting a ranged holy spec? Warriors want Gladiator back as a spec. Etc, etc.

Like I said, it’s largely viewed as a nice to have, not a need to have. We don’t have Shaman players saying that Blizzard is treating them unfairly because they don’t have a tank spec.

Seems rather an ironic statement coming from someone who's been asking for a tinker class longer than people have been asking for fourth specs, or worse, longer than DH players wanting a third spec.

Mainly because the Tinker class is inevitable.

A DH third spec on the other hand, is not.

[Julmara]

did wonder when the first person would spew out tinker wasnt disapointed

[Seiken3]

Specs imo. Allowing everyone to get 4 specs should allow for the diversity a player might want for their class, without having to resorting to alts. Not saying anything against alts, but if I could for example heal on my mage or rogue, I'd prefer that than having to go for an alt class just to get my healing fix. (Sure I can just main a healer and play their dps spec, but it's more often the "struggle" to find a comfortable DPS class and spec where I'd take any healing specc. Well, alteast in my case

[Triceron]

Except 4th specs are viewed as a nice to have. DH is being viewed as gimped and unfairly treated because it lacks a third spec by DH players.

Not really. Most of that criticism prolly comes from players who don't even play DH, like you.

DH players would just the same see a 3rd spec as a nice to have.

We don’t have Shaman players saying that Blizzard is treating them unfairly because they don’t have a tank spec.

We don't have people saying Blizzard is treating DH unfairly because they lack a heal spec either.

[Lynexia]

There are still plenty of distinctive class concepts that could be implemented that would have little to no overlap with existing classes/specs. For example, Tinker:

• Tank spec where you pilot a mech. Works like D.va's mech from Overwatch in that if the mech is destroyed, the player does not die and is instead mechless for a while. Could borrow the parts customization mechanic from FF11's puppeteer job with the tinker being able to swap out different parts on their mech, different chassis, weapons, locomotion, etc.

• Support or heal spec that builds fortified bases that players can take refuge in, also has turrets that deal damage or shield generators, like the Engineer from Lego Univers.

• Damage or heal spec that uses a big raygun, or a backpack that has claw arms, etc.

Stop tryna make tinkerer happen, it's never gonna happen. It's legit imo the worst idea for a class.

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On topic;

While I don't think every class should be able to do every role variation I would have nothing against MOST classes (not all) being able to tank, heal and DPS... What I would like to see is new specs that put real spin on classes.. Survival hunter is a good example, although not in the best spot atm it's a good example of a spec blizzard just couldn't seem to get right until the just devoted it to being a melee spec.

It would be cool to see, paladin support specs, melee mages and warlocks, ranged warriors... Sure it all sounds a bit strange but there's no real reason not to do it

[Lodidop]

New specs is more fun and easier to balance. DK Necromancer would be awesome

[username993720]

All the ones that you like to play

Cynicism aside, i do wonder that if they weren't bound by the 3 specs pattern at launch, which specs wouldn't have seen the light of day and which ones would have been added on top of that.

[Teriz]

Not really. Most of that criticism prolly comes from players who don't even play DH, like you.

DH players would just the same see a 3rd spec as a nice to have.

Not really. They view it as a problem with the class' general design. For example the following is from a lvl 70 DH;

This is exactly what I would want - maybe the dual cross-bow wielding…mid range would be fine with me. Everyone that says lore doesn’t support it - maybe not but the Diablo franchise does exactly this with a class of the same name. I love my DH but also love ranged classes way more and this would instantly become my main if they did this. I also feel (like others have said) that DH being the ONLY class with only 2 specs at this point sucks…because if HAVOC is designed poorly by devs (not saying it is or is not at this point), then you are stuck with tanking, and if tanking is badly designed for an expansion, you are stuck with one DPS…at least give us a third option…how often do we see Blizzard having one of three specs in the gutter while the other two are at least OK…

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ding/1702306/5

Here's another, again from a max level DH;

I want a third spec, i want to be able to play other elf races, there is literally no reason not to.

So tired of my class being ignored, and not having bugs fixed, the only time a bug gets fixed is when it possibly works in our favor, because you wouldn’t want our class to do well.
I will also never be inviting this new evoker class to mythic plus, id rather a third dps that actually does damage.

Here's one from a level 61 DH same thread from about a week ago;

Yeah was just going to make a ragebait thread asking what you all did to make the devs hate you so much. Was sure dh was going to get a 3rd spec after seeing evokers get theirs, and then when I saw only 2 hero specs on the panel for dh, i was like, wow. Someone is blizzard’s redheaded stepchild and they don’t even want to mask it.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ren/1586996/85

There's several such posts and threads on the DH forum over on the official forums, mostly stemming from the introduction of Augvoker. I imagine this will blow up once again when the hero talents get fully revealed. As you know DHs only get two while all other classes get three to four.

We don't have people saying Blizzard is treating DH unfairly because they lack a heal spec either.

THIRD spec, not a heal spec.

[Ielenia]

Like I said, it’s largely viewed as a nice to have, not a need to have. We don’t have Shaman players saying that Blizzard is treating them unfairly because they don’t have a tank spec.

I mean, if we're throwing claims without showing evidence for them, I suppose I can say I've seen people saying that this game needs "fourth specs".

Mainly because the Tinker class is inevitable.

Seems quite evitable from where I'm standing, considering we're closing in on 20 years without it.

A DH third spec on the other hand, is not.

I'd say it's more likely than your beloved class, but you do you.

[Geckoo]

Personally i prefer more specs, but i understand why they prefer more classes.

A new class simply has more potential to reach more people as a new expansion feature than a bunch of new specs, mostly because the key is that by adding a new class they add a new archetype with its own theme and playstyle, but by adding a new spec you are essentially adding a variation of the existing archetype. All those specs are great for the already active players, but precisely because they are active players they are more likely to buy an expansion no matter what.

[Teriz]

I mean, if we're throwing claims without showing evidence for them, I suppose I can say I've seen people saying that this game needs "fourth specs".

I provided evidence in the post right above yours.

Seems quite evitable from where I'm standing, considering we're closing in on 20 years without it.

20 years and multiple expansions and more new classes to go. Further technology remains the last major archetype not present in the class lineup, yet rather common in other MMOs.

[Ielenia]

I provided evidence in the post right above yours.

Well, a quick Google search got me this:

Shaman “tanking” spec please

Free us from “having” to play a boring/repetitive Druid if we want to play a ranged spec on the side

20 years and multiple expansions and more new classes to go. Further technology remains the last major archetype not present in the class lineup, yet rather common in other MMOs.

That's what you've been saying for over a decade. It's always "coming in the future", and yet we're no closer to that now than we were back then.

[Faerillis]

I mean.... Yes? Both.

As stands, and I realize this is controversial on this forum, Tinker is a very obvious missing class with a robust fantasy currently not overlapping significantly with any existing class and quite substantial grounding in the setting. I'm quite partial to the often floated idea of a D.Va like Tank spec (God I miss OW1), a more alchemically inspired Support/Healing spec like the Alchemists in Motherlode, and some sort of turret-y DPS spec. But I also don't see us getting this class until The Last Titan at the earliest.

But I am also VERY strongly on the side of more Specs. The absence of Earthwarder Shaman tanks is still heartbreaking to me. I am also a big fan of the idea of a Battlemage Tank spec that utilizes all 3 schools of Mage spells but defensively (also being built around having a 1h and a Staff as an off-hand Gandalf style). Obviously DHs really want a new spec as well, I would personally have it be Ranged (or Evoker medium range) with heavy blood theming and call it Sacrifice.

[Triceron]

Not really. They view it as a problem with the class' general design.

The problem is those people have issue with what they already have, not with the class being incomplete.

Their desire for change stems from not liking how Havoc is designed. And that's what needs to be tackled first and foremost. A class with 3 specs and none of them being 'fun' would also run into the same problem. And frankly, we had that with a while with Warlocks and Shamans, where plenty of players were shitting on every spec for underperforming and wanted an update overall.

THIRD spec, not a heal spec.

So what 3rd spec would a Demon Hunter need in order to be considered complete? Can you elaborate?

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Cynicism aside, i do wonder that if they weren't bound by the 3 specs pattern at launch, which specs wouldn't have seen the light of day and which ones would have been added on top of that.

There were no real specs at launch. There were talent trees, and you were left to your own devices in how you wanted to plop your points. Hybridization was a legitimate way to play a class.

The only reason things became cookie cutter and specialized is because the Talent Tree system was quite imbalanced and prone to min-maxing. Most of the trees were filled with fluff, while other talents were considered key or necessary for a certain types of gameplay (ie Innervate, Blessing of Kings for Raiding).

And instead of tackling Min-Max cookie cutter builds with better balance, Blizzard decided to double down on them and keep them as the meta. And they designed and balanced encounters around those cookie cutter builds instead, and chose to fine-tune balance every cookie cutter build, until they were considered the 'true way' to play the game.

That's why we have Specs today, really. It's all evolved from cookie cutter builds instead of retaining the open gameplay that Vanilla originally offered, where you could be a Feral Druid that both DPS and Tanks in one spec, or have a Warrior that could tank by switching a stance and equipping a shield with no real talent change, or have a Paladin go buffing just by throwing on some spirit gear. That doesn't exist today, because classes are now built around Specs, rather than the other way around. It's just a different game altogether. And as a result of being evolved from cookie cutter builds and Specs defining roles, we have a lot of homogenization and redundancy between various classes and specs. A Guardian Druid, for example, is designed like a Warrior with slightly different abilities, rotation and stat priority. The gameplay isn't really filling the fantasy of 'playing a Shapeshifter' like you might have in other games like Diablo 4 or Path of Exile 2. In those games, you feel the real impact of playing as a massive 'Werebear' and swapping back to toss out a few spells, whereas in WoW a Guardian Druid is basically a Warrior with different buttons and it doubles down on using only one form, performing one role, at a time.