The Raiding+ KEYSTONE

[epigramx]

[Consolidating all the threads that are exclusively on this topic: in this thread and: the rest threads on it are closed]

After countless of threads and forum posts and after the great help of many commenters in this very forum: I believe I have reached a solution that handles the actual details of how the Raiding+ lockouts will work and: everyone knows the devil is in the details.

a) First of all the Raiding+ Keystone will be a global weekly lockout similar to how hard core raiding works; but don't worry about its difficulty as a gametype in general; it would start from practically LFR-difficulty and be flexible up to a level so everyone will clear level 1.

b) It will have a global weekly timer of X hours; for example: you have 8 hours to complete the raid this week; if you do complete it within the 8 hours you will upgrade your Keystone by +1 levels and on the next kill the loot from a boss will be upgraded.

c) It will be REPEATABLE in the same week; that's what I believe will be the ..key of success here; if you are a semi-casual guild you may reach heroic early but the hard cores may reach mythic early but even they will run out of week-time eventually.

Bonus advantage: AMAZING STREAMING OPPORTUNITIES for extremely-fast-"LFR" runs first week; imagine the hilarity of seeing the most hard core guild in the world going after lootbags; but also: it will have an end soon since they'll key-upgrade.

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Other design ideas that will probably (or at least potentially) improve it further and are necessary in the general context of discussion for the design:

1) Per-boss keys on the journal and per-boss on-kill-loot; that means you would change raid leader and improve your key further and on better loot (per-boss on top); it would be extremely pug friendly.

2) Not counting out-of-combat time at all; this is an absolute necessity for raiding especially for casual and semi-hard core guilds; it's probably a required improvement for 5man+ too.

3) The timer can remain global per-raid even on the per-boss loot and level system; it's probably the smoother option also for Lore; a kill of a boss may add +X hours to the raid-keys.

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Other resources and older locked threads:

A) threads:

Older thread (less fleshed out: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2644791

Even older thread (even less fleshed out): https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2644436

The War Within general suggestions (PvE+ is not exclusive there): https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2645931

B) Previous text of this thread:

Mythic+ is so superior in its design in terms of competition that raiding feels like something coming from 40 years in the past before the game genre was developed; people saying the timer of Mythic+ is bad is just utter nonsense; the timer is the final element that makes it perfect because not only it makes competition truly clean and quick but also it fixes the worst problem of MMMORPGs since their inception: potentially wasting the entire life of people with grinding.

Now there's an issue of course; first: if you do make Raiding into Raiding+ (i.e. gain all the mechanics of timing from Mythic+) then it will be harsher for people wanting to be too casual because it can potentially be never-ending; but the only true alternative to not make Raiding feel primitive against Mythic+ is to just delete Mythic+ from the game but that doesn't sound right so it appears that Raiding+ is a necessity.

C) The previous thread on this topic: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2646036

[Mamut]

Your Raiding+ is calleed Fated Raid. I'm pretty sure there will be fated versions before new exp release.

[Lynexia]

Mythic+ is so superior in its design in terms of competition that raiding feels like something coming from 40 years in the past before the game genre was developed; people saying the timer of Mythic+ is bad is just utter nonsense; the timer is the final element that makes it perfect because not only it makes competition truly clean and quick but also it fixes the worst problem of MMMORPGs since their inception: potentially wasting the entire life of people with grinding.

Now there's an issue of course; first: if you do make Raiding into Raiding+ (i.e. gain all the mechanics of timing from Mythic+) then it will be harsher for people wanting to be too casual because it can potentially be never-ending; but the only true alternative to not make Raiding feel primitive against Mythic+ is to just delete Mythic+ from the game but that doesn't sound right so it appears that Raiding+ is a necessity.

M+ is not Superior lmao. M+ is the epitome or mindless smash and zerg game play that only seems to be popular with people who have little to no patience.

[jrfvnkldertvc]

im good. thx though.

[Relapses]

In today's episode: OP argues for something that already exists with a different name but doesn't realize it because they haven't played the game in a decade.

[Harrold]

If you mean it can scale up indefinitely then no that isn't better design. Much like speed running were you glitch through a level to skip 80% of a game is arguably terrible design as well.

Fated raids are alright. I enjoyed them as a novelty rather then a long last patch but they are a novelty.

[epigramx]

Fated Raid

Not enough. It also has to upgrade. It loses that advantage of Mythic+ otherwise; the fluidity of starting gradually from easy and going to hard; it would keep "Raiding+" worse without it.

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In today's episode: OP argues for something that already exists with a different name but doesn't realize it because they haven't played the game in a decade.

I ignore the personal attack (I just reported it (maybe they'll do something this time unless you're just a sock puppet of an admin which would explain their inaction). On topic: it's not enough. It would also have to upgrade with a timer; that's one of the main advantages of mythic+; it would keep "raiding+" worse without it.

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If you mean it can scale up indefinitely then no that isn't better design.

It is though. You also do the mistake of only looking at the hard part of it, because it also has the advantage of gradually going from very easy to harder which is something "normal -> to heroic -> to mythic" doesn't have or doesn't have as smoothly (especially heroic to mythic!).

[Fitsu]

Mythic+ is so superior in its design in terms of competition that raiding feels like something coming from 40 years in the past before the game genre was developed; people saying the timer of Mythic+ is bad is just utter nonsense; the timer is the final element that makes it perfect because not only it makes competition truly clean and quick but also it fixes the worst problem of MMMORPGs since their inception: potentially wasting the entire life of people with grinding.

Now there's an issue of course; first: if you do make Raiding into Raiding+ (i.e. gain all the mechanics of timing from Mythic+) then it will be harsher for people wanting to be too casual because it can potentially be never-ending; but the only true alternative to not make Raiding feel primitive against Mythic+ is to just delete Mythic+ from the game but that doesn't sound right so it appears that Raiding+ is a necessity.

Your posts are always wild man, I appreciate the level of effort that goes into baiting people. I can never predict what the next one is going to be.

[froschhure]

I also stated this several times. They should get rid of all the 4 current raid versions and introduce raid+. On top they have to give players the free choice between personal loot / group loot and master loot. Stacking classes tho should have a diminishing factor (speaking for perso loot) . A wide variation of classes needs to be the main task.
And when they are at it. Release 2 raids at once so players get 6 raids per expansion in total.

Raid+ does not need to be a timed activity, since the mechanics always require more time to adapt and coordinate.

[Tech614]

There is nothing wrong with raiding. There is nothing wrong with M+. Yet there is a post every week about trying to "fix" one. Hilarious.

[Lolites]

There is nothing wrong with raiding. There is nothing wrong with M+. Yet there is a post every week about trying to "fix" one. Hilarious.

maybe bcs there is something wrong with those posters

[DPA]

Ok I'll bait.

There is a major flaw in your argument that you're not considering. In a m+ environment you're putting off time for 5 people of 30 minutes to an hour. This is fairly narrow, and everyone is capable of completing or staying for the entire duration.

Introducing a raid with a timer for the entirety of the raid is a bad idea with the current way grouping for raids are designed for the majority of players. Most people have a raid guild or pug, which the flexible design caters to. Adding a timer to a raid would effectively exclude these people from content, which in a business model is bad.
You already have content exluding a lot of players from the hardest content (mythic raiding) requiring 20 people rosters, and enough time dedicated to this activity.
A raid timer would not allow for the flexible way raidforming are meant to be in the current form.

In the argument for "fixing" content, (m+, raids) I'm curious on statistics showing percentages of active accounts completing 20+ instances and perhaps even mythic raiding or even hardcore raiding.

[Kilpi]

WTF this sounds like the stupidest idea. The timer is what makes M+ runs usually unbearable.

[Loveliest]

M+ is not Superior lmao. M+ is the epitome or mindless smash and zerg game play that only seems to be popular with people who have little to no patience.

?? M+ on higher keys and not being overgeared requires a lot of effort, awarenes and good reactions.

For example, was doing this Throne of the Tides 18 in my sorry naked tank ass last week with an equally non meta guild group and you wouldn't believe the amount of effort and coordination it took to survive the stupid dogs, the stupid gauntlet and the stupid last boss that spawns stupid splotches 60 yards away. Had to plan a rotational CD for every single ink whatever, was working around my cheat death trinket as a CD, had to make sure we still have space to sit, would never fail to bring and interrupt all the ads, dispel all the crap and so on. Thank god it's all getting nerfed.
Yeah, if you do an M15 Atal or something with an ok geared group, you breeze through it. Just like you do if you do normal raid and overgear it.

EVERY type of content has an easy silly rush through version. Hell, a normal raid clear can take less than doing the hardcore regular Dawn Dungeon. And all of them get harder and harder and require better gear and better "skills" (knowledge of dungeon and class, awareness, reaction, teamwork etc). Mythic raid, high M+ dungeons etc. Pretending otherwise is choosing to be obtuse just for the sake of being obtuse.

[Relapses]

I ignore the personal attack (I just reported it (maybe they'll do something this time unless you're just a sock puppet of an admin which would explain their inaction). On topic: it's not enough. It would also have to upgrade with a timer; that's one of the main advantages of mythic+; it would keep "raiding+" worse without it.

D-do you even know what a personal attack is? Speaking about somebody in the third person doesn't qualify as an attack. Please don't clog up the mod queue because you can't handle other people criticizing your posts.

Nobody wants to do raids on a timer. There's no precedent for it and if there was you'd think in the twenty years that WoW has existed they might've tried it by now. There's a reason they haven't: The entire dynamic from raiding to dungeon grinding is different. This is painfully, abundantly clear to anybody who has ever done a single dungeon or a single raid. You're drawing parallels that don't exist, pointing to a conceptually terrible idea then gesturing that the game is worse because a thing that's bad doesn't exist.

Having seen your posting patterns I know this advice will ring hollow but trust fam I'm speaking from a place of good intention: Some WoW shower thoughts are better left in the WC.

[notthebees]

Yet another post of "I'm a game dev and know what direction the game should take." Wish Ignore+ existed, so I wouldn't even see the inane threads themselves.

[Lynexia]

There is nothing wrong with raiding. There is nothing wrong with M+. Yet there is a post every week about trying to "fix" one. Hilarious.

TBF... Mythic+ is shit, it's a flawed system that should have undergone more development before being introduced.

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?? M+ on higher keys and not being overgeared requires a lot of effort, awarenes and good reactions.

For example, was doing this Throne of the Tides 18 in my sorry naked tank ass last week with an equally non meta guild group and you wouldn't believe the amount of effort and coordination it took to survive the stupid dogs, the stupid gauntlet and the stupid last boss that spawns stupid splotches 60 yards away. Had to plan a rotational CD for every single ink whatever, was working around my cheat death trinket as a CD, had to make sure we still have space to sit, would never fail to bring and interrupt all the ads, dispel all the crap and so on. Thank god it's all getting nerfed.
Yeah, if you do an M15 Atal or something with an ok geared group, you breeze through it. Just like you do if you do normal raid and overgear it.

EVERY type of content has an easy silly rush through version. Hell, a normal raid clear can take less than doing the hardcore regular Dawn Dungeon. And all of them get harder and harder and require better gear and better "skills" (knowledge of dungeon and class, awareness, reaction, teamwork etc). Mythic raid, high M+ dungeons etc. Pretending otherwise is choosing to be obtuse just for the sake of being obtuse.

IF you say so. I had 2k rating week 1 as a healer this season and barely broke a sweat.. Literally all you need is DPS that aren't trash so the healer can chip in on DPS and you can so 20 - 23s with very little effort.. As for over geared... our tank was still ilvl 446 at the start and only 450 by the end... not exactly what I would call overgeared.

One thing that doesn't change in M+ is the zerg rush mentality, doesn't matter how high you go doing big pulls and ridiculous DPS is just how it works. Sure if you're not interrupting, Stunning, and dealing with Affixes properly you're going to have a bad time but you get all that right and low 20s are literally faceroll. Sure once you get to mid to high 20s that's another skill cap and you need to be even better at the game but that's such a low percentage of the player base that it doesn't even matter.

[Tech614]

TBF... Mythic+ is shit, it's a flawed system that should have undergone more development before being introduced.

Nah, there is no "tbf". M+ was a great addition to the game that offered a unique pve progress path outside of raiding. Seethe more about how it's "bad" because you don't like it. It's not going to make it true no matter how much you guys keep posting these terrible takes.

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IF you say so. I had 2k rating week 1 as a healer this season and barely broke a sweat

Statements like these are cool story bros if you don't link an IO to back it up. That would of been all 20s/19s week 1 which isn't even unbelievable but the fact you're claiming you did every dungeon at that level as a healer and didn't break a sweat it's easy to call the bs when there where some clear overtuned healing checks in some of them.

[Lynexia]

Nah, there is no "tbf". M+ was a great addition to the game that offered a unique pve progress path outside of raiding. Seethe more about how it's "bad" because you don't like it. It's not going to make it true no matter how much you guys keep posting these terrible takes.

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Statements like these are cool story bros if you don't link an IO to back it up. That would of been all 20s/19s week 1 which isn't even unbelievable but the fact you're claiming you did every dungeon at that level as a healer and didn't break a sweat it's easy to call the bs when there where some clear overtuned healing checks in some of them.

ok... I can't stress this enough. Your belief isn't necessary, Yes, I did mostly 19s, the only one that was even remotely a challenge was ToT because of the completely overtuned gauntlet at the end. So you can say cool story bro all you like. Your belief that what I said isn't true doesn't make my opinion any less valid either way so I see no reason to reveal to you my character sheet, just like every other time I've bought it up on these forums a persons assumed skill level be it high or low doesn't change how valid their opinion is.

If I was really trying to be better than others about my opinion I would also tell you I work in the games industry. You wouldn't believe me no matter how true it was.

Ultimately M+ could have been something really special, an actual test of skill. Instead it's just zerg smash no brain play that uses speed as an arbitrary measure for skill. There was a million better ways to implement the system which also would have avoided making it as over-rewarding as it currently is. It's not a well designed system. Frankly onces delves hit shelves, assuming I can get myth track gear from delve vault I'll probably never get rating over 2k ever again.

[Thirtyrock]

Not enough. It also has to upgrade. It loses that advantage of Mythic+ otherwise; the fluidity of starting gradually from easy and going to hard; it would keep "Raiding+" worse without it.

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I ignore the personal attack (I just reported it (maybe they'll do something this time unless you're just a sock puppet of an admin which would explain their inaction). On topic: it's not enough. It would also have to upgrade with a timer; that's one of the main advantages of mythic+; it would keep "raiding+" worse without it.

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It is though. You also do the mistake of only looking at the hard part of it, because it also has the advantage of gradually going from very easy to harder which is something "normal -> to heroic -> to mythic" doesn't have or doesn't have as smoothly (especially heroic to mythic!).

Who, in the world, is asking for this? No one is saying Raiding is inferior to M+ because of a lack of endless scanning or whatever.

No one is asking for this, it's a stupid solution in search of a problem.