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  1. #41
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    IS this the same OP that doesn't even play? or if he does play it's last the xp pack not even current content?
    No that's wowisdead. This one just hasn't played in like ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  2. #42
    Scarab Lord
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    It's a fun idea to play with, not sure how it'll work out in practice, maybe they'll try it final season next expansion in place of fated...
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    This thread is a primitive version of my thoughts by the way. If you want a more complete version look at my signature, though that is a locked thread because the mods thought this one is the same topic (normally this should be locked and that opened).
    How do you expect loot to work? And what are the consequences of going over the Timer? Raiding is different from Dungeons for a number of reasons, but two reasons that you haven't covered in anything I've seen yet are:

    1. The timer determines not only whether you get to a higher difficulty, but ALSO the quantity of loot that you get. How are you planning on dealing with the frustration of gaining very little gear after a potentially 3-4 hour progression run?

    2. In raids, you gain gear as you go along, and the gear you get from the earlier bosses plays a crucial role in allowing you to progress further in to the raid. In M+, you only get gear once you finish the run, which is counter to how raiding works at the moment, so how would you provide gear along the way?
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
    Whats the saying .. You have two brain cells and they are both fighting for third place !

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    How do you expect loot to work? And what are the consequences of going over the Timer? Raiding is different from Dungeons for a number of reasons, but two reasons that you haven't covered in anything I've seen yet are:

    1. The timer determines not only whether you get to a higher difficulty, but ALSO the quantity of loot that you get. How are you planning on dealing with the frustration of gaining very little gear after a potentially 3-4 hour progression run?

    2. In raids, you gain gear as you go along, and the gear you get from the earlier bosses plays a crucial role in allowing you to progress further in to the raid. In M+, you only get gear once you finish the run, which is counter to how raiding works at the moment, so how would you provide gear along the way?
    I don't see a cause for concern on that. Raiding+1 would start from an extremely low difficulty (lower than even normal would be ideal since some guilds are VERY casual (i.e. it's unnecessary to avoid doing it that way)); that means killing bosses would be extremely easy at the start for everyone in the game; bonus benefit: maybe the hated-LFR will be finally gone from the game?

    I envision loot to be per boss; you just kill it and you have a chest as always (or the boss is the lootbag as it has always has been); the inclusion of not counting trash time or out-of combat time would be great for the raiding reality (and 5man should also have it that way in reality) (if you want it EVEN EASIER to get loot (or progress): I wouldn't mind having only per-boss timers (i.e. being banned from a boss if the boss-timer-sum runs out and not from the total raid (though from the total raid might feel kinda more epic)).

    --

    You actually put me into thoughts that a "per boss" timer (and lootbag) might be ideal for the Raiding+ format. That's because the scale of a raid is too epic (unless raids become always mini-raids (but that's boring)). So technically it should probably be designed as "mini mythic-pluses per boss" (with the exclusion of counting trash and out-of-combat time because guilds are big and easy to waste time on disconnects and waiting for people coming home from their jobs or whatnot (not even 5man should count those as I said)).

    --

    How it would feel like in practice, "oh we are on level 8 on the first boss and now our gear is better": "let's go on the final boss again where we are still level 2 but it's hard but we may still need its gear anyway".

    Perhaps with being banned from a boss if its per-boss timer runs out for the week; unlimited time seems wrong because people at the very least may want an excuse to not grind for life; it will feel more epic too.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2024-01-06 at 08:06 PM.

  5. #45
    The problem with raiding plus is it that it by default has so many more logistical barriers to entry then a mythic plus dungeon but even saying normal can work its the time commitment that also keeps it lagging behind. Without fixing the logisitical nightmare this game mode would be dead on arrival. But they need to find something to be the carrot on the stick that does not also ruin Mythic plus.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    The problem with raiding plus is it that it by default has so many more logistical barriers to entry then a mythic plus dungeon but even saying normal can work its the time commitment that also keeps it lagging behind. Without fixing the logisitical nightmare this game mode would be dead on arrival. But they need to find something to be the carrot on the stick that does not also ruin Mythic plus.
    Everything would be easier if it's just ..easier; e.g. Raiding+ should start at a level that is practically LFR-"hard" (and it can probably replace LFR entirely too since every regular raider hates the format); that would make ANY system bearable at least partly since it would be complete-able by everyone at the introductory levels of it.

    Then it can be "simpler" or plainer by just not counting any time on trash or out of combat; it's a necessity in raiding anyway since guilds are big and the disconnects and people being late is THE ROUTINE; the 5mans should also do the same anyway to make their competition less flavor-of-the-week-y.

    Specifically on what system to have: it could just be a "mythic+ key per boss": i.e. you can be level 8 on the first boss (easier) (and better gear on it) but still level 2 on the last boss (harder boss) (and the gear you get from it is low ilevel unless you kill it at level 2).

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ereb View Post
    Now you want to make raiding EXTRA EXTRA viable?
    That's such a regressive argument. You imply that RAIDING ITSELF is so bad that it should be ignored.

    What about improving raiding for a change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smeeh View Post
    Like how soccer and handball is the same sport because they're team games played with a ball
    What a massive strawman argument. That's like comparing Pet Battles with mythic Raiding.

    I compared PvE of 5 people with PvE of more than 5 people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecheon View Post
    1: You claim this is not for the hardcore crowd. I counter this. The non-queued stuff, where you've got to submit to join a group, is for the more hardcore types because, guess what happens to your submission? It has to be vetted. And what are people going to do with Bob mcNewDracthyr who's just hit his ilvl to start doing these raids but has no experience? Why, the exact same thing that happens to him in M+: He gets rejected because they don't want him when we can get Bahamutprimerib the 470 who's been no-lifing these and is here for some easy whelpstones, over the untested

    Its the exact same thing that happens to someone who tries to join a raid after the first week: Rejected due to not having an AotC. Rejected to not overpowering it.
    2: M+'s biggest complaint is that timer and it leading into the above

    3: Raiding isn't popular. Let's. Let's just be clear: Raiding exists in World of Warcraft because it is entirely kept propped up by a simple queue system called LFR. LFR exists to make riading viable, because otherwise Blizzard would just drop raids and they nearly did twice, during Cata (And this is after Firelands and, let's be honest? Firelands is a GOOD raid) and Warlords (This due to people not running LFR due to not getting tier from it)

    4: Adding time limits to simple tasks is an actual psychological stress on people. Even if the timelimit is the most simple thing, the sheer fact of knowing its there will add that additional stress on.
    I didn't say it's for the hard cores or the casuals only; it's for both the casuals and the hard core people; it's why it will be flexible up to a high level (say current "mythic" difficulty-level (whatever number the Devs choose)) and then lock to 20man (because you can't have a serious competition without a stable group size (it's also why people were infighting constantly in forums about 10man and 25man hard mode (and why I came up with the ~20man raiding type))).

    You can have automation in Raiding+; make it fully automatic [or electively automatic] up to a point similar to LFR (Level 1 Raiding+ is LFR-tier difficulty anyway); then you can mirror the current system (not have automation on "Heroic" level for example) (similarly to how it should lock to 20 people on very high levels).

    You are wrong that timing is bad by the way; it's the ONLY reason that makes tiny-5man feel so epic on mythic plus (for its small group size); the progression of levels after the timer is beat is also contributing to it being exciting (but it's mainly excitement to continue and not during-gaming).

    [PS Also another massive advantage of the timer, is that it makes much cleaner comparisons in competition on very high levels. It's hard to compare the skill of the World First guild playing for 100 hours a week and the top 30 guild playing for only 10 hours a week (the latter has likely higher skill)].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    How would this work for your plan of individual keys per boss and player? If we lock say, key levels 20+ to 20 players, what if you're level 19 on the first boss, and level 21 on the second
    I don't see anything controversial with that. Since people compare Ranks on very high levels of difficulty you can't flex the raid; people and the Devs want a stable environment that is as fair as humanly possible; it's why we had constant flamewars in forums when 10man coexisted with 25man on hard mode raiding.

    They'll just require 20 people on bosses of level 20 and up (or whatever number of people or level they choose); it's not even anything new; people would find it a natural transition from 20man hard mode (and many know fixating the size is a "necessary inconvenience" for high level competition comparisons of ranks).
    Last edited by epigramx; 2024-01-20 at 06:40 AM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    Ok I'll bait.

    There is a major flaw in your argument that you're not considering. In a m+ environment you're putting off time for 5 people of 30 minutes to an hour. This is fairly narrow, and everyone is capable of completing or staying for the entire duration.

    Introducing a raid with a timer for the entirety of the raid is a bad idea with the current way grouping for raids are designed for the majority of players. Most people have a raid guild or pug, which the flexible design caters to. Adding a timer to a raid would effectively exclude these people from content, which in a business model is bad.
    You already have content exluding a lot of players from the hardest content (mythic raiding) requiring 20 people rosters, and enough time dedicated to this activity.
    A raid timer would not allow for the flexible way raidforming are meant to be in the current form.

    In the argument for "fixing" content, (m+, raids) I'm curious on statistics showing percentages of active accounts completing 20+ instances and perhaps even mythic raiding or even hardcore raiding.
    What if we cut up the raid and made a keystone for each individual boss, rather than the whole raid? We could possibly add affixes to a pool, and whenever a keystone is generated/upgraded it pulls from a pool of available affixes for the specific boss the keystone rolls.

    So let’s say each boss in an 8 boss raid has 6 affixes, maybe 3 are generic across the board and 3 are specific to the boss.. You get your key, it rolls a boss, then it rolls 1 out of 3 possible generic affixes, and then it rolls 1 out of 3 possible specific affixes.

  9. #49
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    IS this the same OP that doesn't even play? or if he does play it's last the xp pack not even current content?
    nah that is WoWIsDead64

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    What a massive strawman argument. That's like comparing Pet Battles with mythic Raiding.

    I compared PvE of 5 people with PvE of more than 5 people.
    Fucking what? Comparing 2 team sports is not the same as comparing 2 team based pve modes? Are you really this fucking stupid? Its not even remotely close to comparing pet battles with raiding and you know it isnt. Your arguement was "Absolute nonsense. It's PvE with almost exactly the same abilities per player" so explain to me, with actual words, how these 2 team sports played with a ball are so diffrent but the 2 team based pve modes with almost the exact same abilites are somehow not different. If i compared soccer and nascar, maybe but i didnt. I understand that you think saying "strawman" makes you look smart and you get to feel like you come out on top but please just stop.

    You keep saying that raiding needs a timer because M+ has a timer and people like M+, and so since they're both pve it has to happen and can only be a good thing. We keep asking you why you think this will somehow fix something that isnt broken in the first place.
    I'ts not just safe, it's 40% safe.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I don't see anything controversial with that. Since people compare Ranks on very high levels of difficulty you can't flex the raid; people and the Devs want a stable environment that is as fair as humanly possible; it's why we had constant flamewars in forums when 10man coexisted with 25man on hard mode raiding.

    They'll just require 20 people on bosses of level 20 and up (or whatever number of people or level they choose); it's not even anything new; people would find it a natural transition from 20man hard mode (and many know fixating the size is a "necessary inconvenience" for high level competition comparisons of ranks).
    You read something different from what I was saying. I wasn't casting doubt on the idea. I was asking for a specific example of how it would work. I have 30 people in my raid, we kill the first boss at a 19 key level, and the raid leader has the second boss at a 21 key level, as it's an easier boss. How do we select the key level, and what does that change? Does it despawn the boss until we have 20 people? Can we not select the 21 until we've only got 20 people in our raid? How specifically does that work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
    Whats the saying .. You have two brain cells and they are both fighting for third place !

  12. #52
    "raids need to change bcs m+ makes it look bad" is like saying wine have to change bcs cognac have more alcohol contents...
    m+ and raids are NOT supposed to be alike, they are fine as they are, if you dont like them dont do them (judging by your posts and comments i believe you havent touch the game in ages so that shouldnt be issue)

  13. #53
    Elemental Lord
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    going to ask my question from the other thread here: why do you think raiding needs such a massive overhaul to such a convoluted system as opposed to what we have now? raiding now is simple; you go in, kill the boss, get loot. mythic+ is a different style of content, your proposed changes for raiding is like wanting to change apples to cheese. It's unnecessary. It won't increase the amount of people doing said content, in fact it will probably decrease it.
    Last edited by MrLachyG; 2024-01-20 at 10:55 AM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Smeeh View Post
    you really this fucking stupid?

    You keep saying that raiding needs a timer because M+ has a timer and people like M+, and so since they're both pve it has to happen
    The problem with your "arguments" is that you don't understand how the gaming design even works; you appear to have a vague impression that 5man+ works but you have no clue why; maybe you should listen to me about how it works instead of blatantly personally attacking me as "stupid".

    If you took the time between your personal attacks and actually read what I'm saying you'd already know I explained that part multiple times; you argument was effectively a strawman; I did not say "just because it works" in 5man; I said exactly WHY it works in 5man,

    and that's because the timer creates an epic feeling of urgency; it manages to make tiny-5man feel way more epic than it would be; having that into a big raid would be an even more epic feeling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    You read something different from what I was saying. I wasn't casting doubt on the idea. I was asking for a specific example of how it would work. I have 30 people in my raid, we kill the first boss at a 19 key level, and the raid leader has the second boss at a 21 key level, as it's an easier boss. How do we select the key level, and what does that change? Does it despawn the boss until we have 20 people? Can we not select the 21 until we've only got 20 people in our raid? How specifically does that work?
    There can be variations on the smaller specifics but I can see a specific way right now. The key depends purely on whoever is the raid leader and it's a virtual key on the journal (mainly to not max up the bags). The cut off could be a red line at a room before the boss that only 20 people can cross (as a funny idea that would look impressive) (or of course kicking them out of the raid will also work traditionally lol..).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    "raids need to change bcs m+ makes it look bad"
    That's an old thread title (and can't change unless a mod does it manually); I had to reuse an old thread because the rest are locked; an admin knows.

    I've defined more clearly how it is. Mythic+ is epic because the timing limit creates a feeling of urgency and raiding could be enriched with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    going to ask my question from the other thread here: why do you think raiding needs such a massive overhaul to such a convoluted system as opposed to what we have now? raiding now is simple
    Yeah it's simple and worse on some specific aspects. 5man+ has a more epic feeling than it would have otherwise because the timing limit creates a feeling of urgency that raiding could be enriched with.

    Also as a side effect raiding also needs to fix the abrupt progression through its difficulties; heroic to mythic is a ludicrous jump of difficulty for example; it needs at least 2 levels between them.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    The problem with your "arguments" is that you don't understand how the gaming design even works; you appear to have a vague impression that 5man+ works but you have no clue why; maybe you should listen to me about how it works instead of blatantly personally attacking me as "stupid".

    If you took the time between your personal attacks and actually read what I'm saying you'd already know I explained that part multiple times; you argument was effectively a strawman; I did not say "just because it works" in 5man; I said exactly WHY it works in 5man,

    and that's because the timer creates an epic feeling of urgency; it manages to make tiny-5man feel way more epic than it would be; having that into a big raid would be an even more epic feeling.
    First off, im calling you stupid because you said raids and dungeons is the same content (which i said it isnt) because its pve with the same abilites but for some reason these 2 similar sports played with balls are so different (which they are, also) but that is somehow like comparing "pet battles compared to raids". Either things that have a lot in common are the same (such as raids and dungeons), your arguement, or they're not (such as soccer and handball), my arguement.
    "explain to me, with actual words, how these 2 team sports played with a ball are so diffrent but the 2 team based pve modes with almost the exact same abilites are somehow not different."
    Tell me why i dont understand what 5 man m+ is because i say its not the same content as raids just because they're both "pve with the same abilities" (your words btw).

    You say: "If you love 5man+, it's contradicting to hate raiding+" We say, "It's not the same, just because we like it in 5 man content does not mean we will like it in 20+ man content". It seem like you dont understand why we dont just want to add mechanics from one game mode to another because to you they're effectively the same game mode.

    Urgency in raids you say? Now that would be something, imagine if they could add that on the bosses? Maybe buff them after an amount of time had passed from the moment you engage them? Maybe they could add some abilites that would fill up the area you were fighting it making it so you only had so much time before you would wipe. That sure would be epic. But alas, i guess they only way we'll know is if we only have 8 hours per week inside the raid.
    Its called enrage timers, they've been in the game for about 18 years now. They work just fine for adding urgency to the fights.

    I suppose epic stories in epic settings and overcomming the challenge of the hardest fights the game has to offer with 19 of your friends is not what makes raids feel epic. Nah, the only way they would ve is if you get kicked out when epigramx sais you're done for the week.
    Last edited by Smeeh; 2024-01-20 at 05:18 PM.
    I'ts not just safe, it's 40% safe.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Smeeh View Post
    Urgency in raids you say? Now that would be something, imagine if they could add that on the bosses? Maybe buff them after an amount of time had passed from the moment you engage them? Maybe they could add some abilites that would fill up the area you were fighting it making it so you only had so much time before you would wipe. That sure would be epic. But alas, i guess they only way we'll know is if we only have 8 hours per week inside the raid.
    Its called enrage timers
    This is such a horrible argument; but AT LEAST you started talking with actual arguments now so I thank you for that; unfortunately what you just said is light years away of what we're doing here.

    Of course enrage timers can not replace mythic+ or raiding+; don't you understand the difference between being BANNED FROM THE LEVEL and just dying in a boss; that's the true urgency of m+.

    But I thank you for another reason; I should stop accepting those trying to help for Raiding+ by saying it should be per-boss; per-boss is closer to enrage indeed and it should be per raid!11

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    Also a weekly timer; a total weekly timer that if you run out you are BANNED from doing the raid for the week; you could add +X hours after a kill of a boss though to make it saner and more exciting.

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    Wait a second let's be more lenient about this. THERE IS a situation of a timer per-boss that is close to mythic+. That is there is NO ENRAGE in the boss but there is a total WEEKLY timer (or another form of a total timer).
    Last edited by epigramx; 2024-01-20 at 06:52 PM.

  17. #57
    OP come with..... THIS... then i really just read them calling someone else clueless on game design...
    This is so rich, you made my day start with a loud laugh, thank you

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