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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by nvaelz View Post
    The mods here do a great job, I'm honored to not have been permanently banned for my behavior, I think this place is great. You're just being silly.
    You're sucking up. The mods have shown to be vindictive and even spiteful. I've seen topics closed simply because the mod felt it wasn't a topic that should be discussed here. POst was even put in the "off-topic" section and was civil from start to finish, but again, closed because a mod didn't like the discussion.

  2. #62
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    ...and discussing moderation is also against the rules.

    Back on topic, y'all, or the thread gets locked.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Why are you so mad lol? Those links don't show what you think they do LOL. Did you even read the links you posted? Ret is the 9th highest throughput DPS, with a legendary. 9/26. Not only that, but it is the 6th highest melee DPS out of 13, again with a legendary. Further to this, Ret is one of ONLY 2 specs that can't respec to a BETTER performing DPS spec of the 7 specs below it. This is just analysis on the raw data from the links you provided and doesn't count the previous issues I discussed LOL.



    If that were the baseline design philosophy sure that's fair, but I don't think that should be the goal. Having to choose between AOE/ST has never felt particularly good to me as it's not really a playstyle choice, but rather a forced choice based on the content.
    If you legitimately think ret still needs buffs you aren't a good player. Legendary doesn't mean you get to do top damage it tends to mean you are garbage without it because they balance around having the legendary.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    If you legitimately think ret still needs buffs you aren't a good player. Legendary doesn't mean you get to do top damage it tends to mean you are garbage without it because they balance around having the legendary.
    Ret absolutely does need buffs (talent fixes), I was extremely thorough earlier in the post. If you want to refute those points please do so, otherwise post something useful to the discussion because making assumptions and insulting me personally aren't it. No where in my post did I say Ret deserves to do top damage. Hyperbole doesn't help your argument. Requiring a legendary to be middle of the road DPS, doesn't feel fun or rewarding, and actively felt like shit during prog.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Ret absolutely does need buffs (talent fixes), I was extremely thorough earlier in the post. If you want to refute those points please do so, otherwise post something useful to the discussion because making assumptions and insulting me personally aren't it. No where in my post did I say Ret deserves to do top damage. Hyperbole doesn't help your argument. Requiring a legendary to be middle of the road DPS, doesn't feel fun or rewarding, and actively felt like shit during prog.
    If anything it's not exactly buffs just talent reworks, some specs could use to equalise their ability to do both st and aoe with a single build.

    If that isn't accomplished you need to have all specs have the penalty for aoe to be able to maintain single target and vice versa.


    However META's will always exist that's just the nature of the game and community these days aswqell as the prevalance of resources and peoples passion for pushing. Paladin isn't in a terrible spot at all.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    Imho the problem with ret atm is that its over-all jack of all trades focus makes it a solid support but nowhere near as valueable as an augvoker, and imho, this presents an odd but thoughtful idea on what they should do for ret moving into TWW.

    In not-so-gentle terms, ret needs to be a support DPS, with a strong enphasis on damage and healing...
    But ret is topping ST dps https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...677&dataset=95
    and is literally the 3rd most represented spec in 30+ keys https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99

    So all i can say is "?"

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    If you legitimately think ret still needs buffs you aren't a good player. Legendary doesn't mean you get to do top damage it tends to mean you are garbage without it because they balance around having the legendary.
    But it should mean that you're top damage, or nearly so (assuming you're a good player in a raid/party with other good players). Specs should be balanced without legendaries being taken into account, and then they should be a bonus on top when the legendaries are like the current ones - limited to certain classes and not guaranteed (and only available from certain content that not everyone does).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    But ret is topping ST dps https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...677&dataset=95
    and is literally the 3rd most represented spec in 30+ keys https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99
    When you don't compare the 95th percentile, but the more average performers, Ret is not. It's more like the 6th highest class (so about average), and the second highest of those able to use the legendary (so average, again). Even at the 95th percentile, two classes best Ret in DPS, and by a good margin. What's more, a lot of the fights are not pure ST (Fryakk's not for that matter), and as soon as there's serious AoE, Ret's DPS tanks.

    As for m+, 3rd most, sure. But well behind the 1st and 2nd, and barely more than Havoc or Balance, so it would be more reasonable to say 'in the top five' - which is good, to be sure. Oh, and if you count by class, Paladins are the 4th most popular DPS class, because Warlocks are split between Destro and Demo. Oh, and if Ret is so hot, why is it that in the top 140 runs, Ret appears all of four times (and three of those runs are by one guy, and those four runs are in two dungeons - AD (1 fort, one tyrannical) and BRH (both fort)). Ret's popular (very popular at lower keys), but it's not part of the top-end meta.
    Last edited by Kalisandra; 2024-02-26 at 07:52 AM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    But ret is topping ST dps https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...677&dataset=95
    and is literally the 3rd most represented spec in 30+ keys https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99

    So all i can say is "?"
    It's important to note that Ret has received substantial buffs since the person you quoted's post. Not only in the form of significant % buffs, but even the legendary was buffed pretty noticeably. It still doesn't fix Ret's issue with talents, but the output makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by [Apok] View Post
    If anything it's not exactly buffs just talent reworks, some specs could use to equalise their ability to do both st and aoe with a single build.

    If that isn't accomplished you need to have all specs have the penalty for aoe to be able to maintain single target and vice versa.

    However META's will always exist that's just the nature of the game and community these days aswqell as the prevalance of resources and peoples passion for pushing. Paladin isn't in a terrible spot at all.
    Isn't now, was before. Just has shitty talent design now.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    But it should mean that you're top damage, or nearly so (assuming you're a good player in a raid/party with other good players). Specs should be balanced without legendaries being taken into account, and then they should be a bonus on top when the legendaries are like the current ones - limited to certain classes and not guaranteed (and only available from certain content that not everyone does).

    - - - Updated - - -



    When you don't compare the 95th percentile, but the more average performers, Ret is not. It's more like the 6th highest class (so about average), and the second highest of those able to use the legendary (so average, again). Even at the 95th percentile, two classes best Ret in DPS, and by a good margin. What's more, a lot of the fights are not pure ST (Fryakk's not for that matter), and as soon as there's serious AoE, Ret's DPS tanks.

    As for m+, 3rd most, sure. But well behind the 1st and 2nd, and barely more than Havoc or Balance, so it would be more reasonable to say 'in the top five' - which is good, to be sure. Oh, and if you count by class, Paladins are the 4th most popular DPS class, because Warlocks are split between Destro and Demo. Oh, and if Ret is so hot, why is it that in the top 140 runs, Ret appears all of four times (and three of those runs are by one guy, and those four runs are in two dungeons - AD (1 fort, one tyrannical) and BRH (both fort)). Ret's popular (very popular at lower keys), but it's not part of the top-end meta.
    That isn't how the game has worked basically since shadowmourne even the rogue daggers had damage balanced around the assumption of having them. I don't agree with it especially given the monetary cost to make new legendaries but that is how blizz is balancing them. Also never ever ever ever compare damage numbers below at minimum 90% you can hit 90% using a rotation helper which tells you how bad most players are at this game. Btw Ret is above every single other spec that can use the lego.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    But ret is topping ST dps https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...677&dataset=95
    and is literally the 3rd most represented spec in 30+ keys https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99

    So all i can say is "?"
    Any particular reason why you had to pick specifically only damage to boss on mythic Fyrakk?

    Coz you realize if you switch to overall damage even on that fight alone ret drops to nearly the middle

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Any particular reason why you had to pick specifically only damage to boss on mythic Fyrakk?

    Coz you realize if you switch to overall damage even on that fight alone ret drops to nearly the middle
    While I get your point that ret is not great at ST and Cleave at the same time and has to sacrifice for one or the other, and the poster was probably being misleading about it...

    On Fyrakk the only thing that matters is damage done to the boss. Everyone is so geared now the add damage in p2 is irrelevant it dies regardless and damage to Fyrakk makes P3 significantly easier. That's not ideal for parsing, but for trying to kill the boss it's the right damage to link.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Any particular reason why you had to pick specifically only damage to boss on mythic Fyrakk?

    Coz you realize if you switch to overall damage even on that fight alone ret drops to nearly the middle
    Because your ST on fyrakk and the main colossus is what matters. Showing just "dmg" is like looking at overall in EB where a 3rd of the dmg is just dreadpetal pad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    But it should mean that you're top damage, or nearly so (assuming you're a good player in a raid/party with other good players). Specs should be balanced without legendaries being taken into account, and then they should be a bonus on top when the legendaries are like the current ones - limited to certain classes and not guaranteed (and only available from certain content that not everyone does).

    - - - Updated - - -



    When you don't compare the 95th percentile, but the more average performers, Ret is not. It's more like the 6th highest class (so about average), and the second highest of those able to use the legendary (so average, again). Even at the 95th percentile, two classes best Ret in DPS, and by a good margin. What's more, a lot of the fights are not pure ST (Fryakk's not for that matter), and as soon as there's serious AoE, Ret's DPS tanks.

    As for m+, 3rd most, sure. But well behind the 1st and 2nd, and barely more than Havoc or Balance, so it would be more reasonable to say 'in the top five' - which is good, to be sure. Oh, and if you count by class, Paladins are the 4th most popular DPS class, because Warlocks are split between Destro and Demo. Oh, and if Ret is so hot, why is it that in the top 140 runs, Ret appears all of four times (and three of those runs are by one guy, and those four runs are in two dungeons - AD (1 fort, one tyrannical) and BRH (both fort)). Ret's popular (very popular at lower keys), but it's not part of the top-end meta.
    Because I compare good players? Really no point in trying to determine how your class does at 50 percentile.

    Why would I say "it is top 5"when it's clearly 3rd?
    Ret is not in the highest runs, cause they are limited by prio dmg. Ret really shines defensively, which is all you care about till 30/31.

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