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  1. #121
    There is a part of the community that really doesn't put much stock in, or have the bandwidth to understand "immersion" or numbers, but yes, I totally agree with you OP, and it's one of the reasons I started looking towards Classic during Legion (when scaling started to get out of control).

    We all started in the Waking Shores as level 60. That means, when I go back to the Waking Shores, I expect to see level 60-63 mobs there that are gray that I can practically one shot and that won't aggro me to death just by picking up a simple herb. Or the classic elite mob that is a little tough at my level, so I'll come back when I outlevel it a few levels then take him on. Nope. Can't happen in Retail.

    But no, everything scales with you, destroying any kind of RPG or immersion there is. Then at max level, to make things worse, mobs continue to scale up getting harder, as your item level increases (I do understand the scaling stops at a point). As the OP says, you could raise your item level from 380 to 400, but because the mobs difficulty also scaled, it only really feels like maybe a 10 item lvl increase. Which feels bad. And because of this, gearing and progression has never felt more pointless than it does in Retail.

    My main is 425 item lvl (I don't play retail much). I just went to the Waking Shores and found two mobs walking together. One had 120k health, and the other had 90k health. I killed them. Probably took 10 seconds. Too long, and too many GCD's imo for what I consider is the expansions starter zone. I then hopped on an alt that is 63, went to the same spot and killed the same two mobs, and it felt the EXACT same. I swear to god about 10 seconds to kill them both. lol Retail is such garbage!

    Again, judging by the comments in this thread, the community doesn't have the bandwidth to understand this problem, but it's definitely there.
    Last edited by ablib; 2023-12-02 at 05:41 PM.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    *
    Breaking News: Guy agrees with another guy who shares his exact same opinion. More at 11.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    Again, judging by the comments in this thread, the community doesn't have the bandwidth to understand this problem, but it's definitely there.
    Apparently there is only room for one opinion on this forum and anyone who disagrees with it is "stupid". Very creative bunch on mmoc.
    Quote Originally Posted by A Forum Troll View Post
    You're a Death Knight, therefore you're a noob
    I'm not sure if this is a stereotype though. Can a stereotype be true?

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    We all started in the Waking Shores as level 60. That means, when I go back to the Waking Shores, I expect to see level 60-63 mobs there that are gray that I can practically one shot and that won't aggro me to death just by picking up a simple herb. Or the classic elite mob that is a little tough at my level, so I'll come back when I outlevel it a few levels then take him on. Nope. Can't happen in Retail.

    But no, everything scales with you, destroying any kind of RPG or immersion there is. Then at max level, to make things worse, mobs continue to scale up getting harder, as your item level increases (I do understand the scaling stops at a point). As the OP says, you could raise your item level from 380 to 400, but because the mobs difficulty also scaled, it only really feels like maybe a 10 item lvl increase. Which feels bad.
    But the reverse also feels bad.

    Going into newly released content and absolutely MURDERATING everything coming your way in two seconds flat because you had the audacity to raid in the previous tier also feels bad. And that's what would happen if your ilvl increases scaled in significant and noticeable ways, and monsters didn't. Or, alternatively, you'd have to tune all the new content around people who did raid the previous tier - in which case all the people who didn't do that and all the new players get absolutely stomped by the enemies that are now way too strong for them. And before you say they should just go back: telling people "sorry, you can't play the new thing that just came out, please go back and play all the old stuff first that nobody wants to do anymore because, well, something new just came out" is a surefire way of making people QUIT YOUR GAME.

    That's why scaling was put in. Because while it does create some feelsbad moments here and there, it also solves a lot of problems. And in the grand scheme of things, it solves more problems than it creates.

    Not to mention it also allows things like letting people choose where to level - rather than having to do Zone 1 and then Zone 2 and then Zone 3 and only ever that exact order because that's what you decided the level progression path to be and you can't choose to do anything else. Scaling gives people more freedom and more agency and an overall more appropriate experience, even if it has an occasional hiccup.

    Remember old leveling? Not only did you have to stick to a set route, you also had to abandon everything once you outleveled it. Oh, you really enjoy the current zone and its quests? Well too bad. They're grey to you now, because you did a dungeon with your friend and gained two levels there. Now you can either keep going in the zone you love and get next to zero XP for anything as you oneshot every mob... or you can abandon your quest line, leave the place you had a great time in, and go to a place you hate just because that's where the level progression bracket says you now belong.

    Does THAT seem particularly appealing to you?

    Scaling has its downsides. For sure. But MAN OH MAN does it also have upsides.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But the reverse also feels bad.

    Going into newly released content and absolutely MURDERATING everything coming your way in two seconds flat because you had the audacity to raid in the previous tier also feels bad. And that's what would happen if your ilvl increases scaled in significant and noticeable ways, and monsters didn't. Or, alternatively, you'd have to tune all the new content around people who did raid the previous tier - in which case all the people who didn't do that and all the new players get absolutely stomped by the enemies that are now way too strong for them. And before you say they should just go back: telling people "sorry, you can't play the new thing that just came out, please go back and play all the old stuff first that nobody wants to do anymore because, well, something new just came out" is a surefire way of making people QUIT YOUR GAME.

    That's why scaling was put in. Because while it does create some feelsbad moments here and there, it also solves a lot of problems. And in the grand scheme of things, it solves more problems than it creates.

    Not to mention it also allows things like letting people choose where to level - rather than having to do Zone 1 and then Zone 2 and then Zone 3 and only ever that exact order because that's what you decided the level progression path to be and you can't choose to do anything else. Scaling gives people more freedom and more agency and an overall more appropriate experience, even if it has an occasional hiccup.

    Remember old leveling? Not only did you have to stick to a set route, you also had to abandon everything once you outleveled it. Oh, you really enjoy the current zone and its quests? Well too bad. They're grey to you now, because you did a dungeon with your friend and gained two levels there. Now you can either keep going in the zone you love and get next to zero XP for anything as you oneshot every mob... or you can abandon your quest line, leave the place you had a great time in, and go to a place you hate just because that's where the level progression bracket says you now belong.

    Does THAT seem particularly appealing to you?

    Scaling has its downsides. For sure. But MAN OH MAN does it also have upsides.
    Completing location in superior gear from previous hardcore content and abandoning location, because you want to level quicker - is YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE. My choice - to use outdoor content as major kind of endgame content, and therefore doing it in proper gear, and complete locations, while having some overgear and even if they're "grey" for me. Scaling removes this choice.

    You can always take your Mythic gear off. Because if you don't need rewards from this location due to having overgear - it's pointless for you to even do it in a first place. You play your content - I will play mine. And don't ask my content to be removed from me, because you also want to play it just for lulz.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2023-12-03 at 07:39 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But the reverse also feels bad.
    These are a lot of made up problems. Leveling has been obsolete for 10 years at least. It takes a day to get to max level. At that point, every zone in the game is "grey".

    The world PVE content is so simple that you can press 2 buttons and kill any mob in the game. What does it matter if it takes 3secs or 10 secs? Everyone playing the game is spamming to race through world quests, etc as fast as possible. Are you saying you are having fun killing scaled mobs because it takes 10 secs instead of 5?

    The downsides vastly outweigh the upsides. I played on my Legion druid with disabled artifact weapons and every mob was destroying me. Meanwhile, lvl 20 hunters where 3 shooting the same mobs that were taking me to 20% health every time. Leveling up made it worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by A Forum Troll View Post
    You're a Death Knight, therefore you're a noob
    I'm not sure if this is a stereotype though. Can a stereotype be true?

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