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  1. #121
    Anything can go from meaningless to mandatory if it roadblocks you from your goals. There’s no one thing on this planet that’s actually mandatory for all of us, we each have our own obstacles to overcome to get to where we want.

    So if my goal was to raid competitively in Shadowlands, Torghast was mandatory. This seems like common sense.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Or simply stay competitive since the entire PVP gear system is built on reaching progression parity.
    Why is it..?

    Why would you not want as fair of a match as possible? Templates were awful the first time because for a lot of classes they had the wrong stats.

    Having 0 ilv pvp gear that turned on with your ideal stats in pvp would be best. Its rewards should be cosmetic.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    I disagree. Trials are using anecdotal/testimonial evidence to find the TRUTH because it still is evidence. Both science and the trial are trying to find the facts. It doesn't make sense for something to be evidence in one place and not evidence in another place, when the function of that thing is to get closer to the truth, which is what evidence is. The alien abduction example is in a league of its own, and not relatable to something as mundane as what content WoW players like, which is more similar to "who killed him?" in a court trial.

    You might not accept my evidence, but other people do, and Blizzard still takes online posts seriously.



    But what does this have to do with forced systems?
    Trials use anecdotal evidence for a couple of reasons. 1) They are asking questions about a specific, distinct event instead of a statistical question, 2) The jury/judge can watch the testimony in person and make judgements on whether or not they believe the evidence provided by the witness. Those are two important distinctions.

    It also has to do with what the evidence is vs what the claim is. There are definitely times when something is valid as evidence for one type of claim and not for another. Your assertion that "people say they like it" is a valid piece of evidence for the argument "Some people liked it" but NOT for the argument "The majority of people liked it".

    Those are quantitatively different types of arguments.

  4. #124
    different for everyone, IMO and is dependent on what content you actualy want to do vs content you have to get through in order to unlock the content you want to do.

    for example... for me personaly, I am stuck with a mandatory renown grinds, because stories I want to play through I locked behind renown milestones. for someone who couldn't care less about finishing those stories? grind is optional. Alternately - remember those attunement you use to have to do in order to even step food into a specific raid? again - mandatory grind IF you wanted to do those raids.

    playing WoW is not mandatory. its not like breathing or eating/drinking. however - if you do enjoy playing aspects of it, there are other mandatory aspects that are often tied to the parts you enjoy.. which you have to do in order to acess things you enjoy, whether you like it or not. hence - mandatory.

  5. #125
    Two different meanings: Those pushing for world top 10 feel like XYZ is mandatory for them to remain competitive with both the other raid teams, and those wanting their spot in the raid.

    The other 99.99% of players complaining about mandatory content see those players doing XYZ and immediately feel they are forced to do the same, you know, to stay competitive in the normal mode raiding scene.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by DechCJC View Post
    Anything can go from meaningless to mandatory if it roadblocks you from your goals. There’s no one thing on this planet that’s actually mandatory for all of us, we each have our own obstacles to overcome to get to where we want.

    So if my goal was to raid competitively in Shadowlands, Torghast was mandatory. This seems like common sense.
    The problem is, the other side isn't arguing in good faith. They're arguing, essentially, that if the game itself doesn't hard block something, it isn't mandatory. So, you could TECHNICALLY complete most or even all content in SL without legendaries, therefore it was not mandatory and anyone who thought otherwise was addicted or a shit heel or something like that.

    The fact that raiding and M+ are community activities and participation in ANY community is contingent on conforming to that community's standards is just ignored by these types of arguments.

  7. #127
    I never care about min/maxing outside of
    - making sure i had gems/enchants (didnt have to be the best ones)

    But the people that did care... were the ones making groups or kicking you for lower dps.
    - Legion, artifact power became a 'must do' every week. A neverending grind, there was never an end to it, just it slowing down. If you took a few weeks off, in order to get into groups or stay in groups, you needed to grind out hours upon hours of artifact power.
    - Legion also had you grind out pretty much anything to get your legendary items. Which meant, you had to do everything if you wanted to get the one you needed to get into certain groups.
    - BFA had the same artifact power problem. Which was made hugely worse by the addition of the essenses you got from other activities. EG: Needing to PVP to get essenses to use in raids.
    - Shadowlands, you had to do torghast weekly until you capped out your legendaries. This got old fast, but the main issue was the huge number of floors, unlocking everything on each alt, etc. Easily turned into an hour+ each toon with finding groups for the levels you were on, failing and restarting, etc.



    Again, most of these come down to 'play the game'. And most dont care about it. The problem is the people at the top, the ones making groups and running guilds, do. If your doing 20% less dps than everyone else, you get kicked. If you need to spend the next 2 weeks, every day, grinding pretty much everything to level up an artifact or drop a certain legendary... it becomes 'mandatory' in order to play the game at a level that really doesnt need that effort.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Harrold View Post
    Why would you not want as fair of a match as possible?
    I don't design WoW, nor is WoW's PVP design my responsibility. I'm merely explaining how the PVP progression system works and the intent of its design. That doesn't equate to me vouching for the system or saying it's the most fair thing possible.

    Blizzard designs PVP with gear progression because gear progression is the fundamental 'carrot on a stick' that drives all of the game's end-game content. That's how they chose to design all facets of the end-game. The player is incentivized to dedicate time and effort into obtaining gear, and that plays directly into the business model giving players reasons (progression content) to stay subbed over the course of months on end.

    Why not have it fair? Because WoW PVP isn't built around fairness, it's built around rewarding players for putting more time and effort into the system, just as all other aspects of WoW end-game does. It has little to do with skill, it has everything to do with dedicating time and effort into a pay-per-month MMO.


    Again, not my problem here, since I'm not a WoW designer. I'm just the messenger.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-11-29 at 11:17 PM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    Again, most of these come down to 'play the game'. And most dont care about it. The problem is the people at the top, the ones making groups and running guilds, do. If your doing 20% less dps than everyone else, you get kicked. If you need to spend the next 2 weeks, every day, grinding pretty much everything to level up an artifact or drop a certain legendary... it becomes 'mandatory' in order to play the game at a level that really doesnt need that effort.
    This, this is the whole point. It 100% is groups making these thigns mandatory. But people are people, they're going to do the things that people do. The game can incentivize or disincetivize behavior based on design. The design of the last 3 expansions was one that incentivized pushing players into other areas of content, so it became mandatory.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't design WoW, nor is WoW's PVP design my responsibility. I'm merely explaining how the PVP progression system works and the intent of its design. That doesn't equate to me vouching for the system or saying it's the most fair thing possible.

    Blizzard designs PVP with gear progression because gear progression is the fundamental 'carrot on a stick' that drives all of the game's end-game content. That's how they chose to design all facets of the end-game. The player is incentivized to dedicate time and effort into obtaining gear, and that plays directly into the business model giving players reasons (progression content) to stay subbed over the course of months on end.

    Why not have it fair? Because WoW PVP isn't built around fairness, it's built around rewarding players for putting more time and effort into the system, just as all other aspects of WoW end-game does. It has little to do with skill, it has everything to do with dedicating time and effort into a pay-per-month MMO.


    Again, not my problem here, since I'm not a WoW designer. I'm just the messenger.
    Yeah but that is moronic. You don't have to explain to 2400 player how pvp works.... that is just hearing yourself talk.

    Pvp shouldn't have a power progression system. It's a deterrent to new players joining to appease the kind of loser who joins a full premade conquest group for random battlegrounds. They shouldn't be tolerated much less catered to.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Harrold View Post
    Yeah but that is moronic. You don't have to explain to 2400 player how pvp works.... that is just hearing yourself talk.
    I mean, if you have to ask a stranger why they wouldn't want WoW PVP to be fair, then that doesn't inspire confidence that you actually why things work the way they do. If you did understand, you wouldn't have to ask the question. No point in asking a stranger why they wouldn't change it, since we literally have no power to do so.

    Gear Progression is fundamentally tied to their active subscription business model.

    Pvp shouldn't have a power progression system. It's a deterrent to new players joining to appease the kind of loser who joins a full premade conquest group for random battlegrounds. They shouldn't be tolerated much less catered to.
    No different than regarding a gatcha game for being a gatcha game. Why does Hearthstone not just give you all the cards? Because it builds its business off people obtaining and collecting them, that's why.

    If it were up to me, I'd scrap PVP altogether. I don't think it has any place in WoW, and I think it's holding back resources they could dedicate to other parts of the game. But hey, if there's enough (to use your own words) 'losers' out there who do still PVP to keep it alive, who am I to argue against that? Business is business.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-11-29 at 11:50 PM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    I disagree.
    This isn't a matter of agreement. This is how epistemology works. Feel free to look it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    Trials are using anecdotal/testimonial evidence to find the TRUTH
    Wrong. Legal trials do not determine truth. Which is why you can never be found innocent - only failed to be found not guilty. Trials are about facts - which is why judges are triers of fact, not triers of truth.

    You have in fact stumbled your way into the important distinction at hand right there: legal trials attempt to determine a set of circumstances that may or may not convince a trier of facts (a judge or a jury) beyond a reasonable doubt (in criminal cases; or a preponderance of evidence in civil ones) while it is epistemology that is concerned with determining knowledge about truths.

    Which is precisely why you can't unequivocally use the methods of one for the other, and precisely why I mentioned this is a category error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    You might not accept my evidence, but other people do
    Cool. Talk to them, then. Some people will be convinced of anything, for any reason. That doesn't mean it's true, it just means you've found people easy to convince of something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    But what does this have to do with forced systems?
    As I have explained already, problems arise when people mismatched in skill and expectations are put into the same content - having "mandatory" content increases the risk of that happening because it's, well, "mandatory" for both. Whereas if you let people choose freely, people that are mismatched in skill and expectations tend to choose different kinds of content to engage in and are less likely to be put into the same content.

    Proper matchmaking is one of the most reliable reducers of toxicity in gaming, and proper horizontal segmentation is one of the most reliable mechanisms for proper matchmaking.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I mean, if you have to ask a stranger why they wouldn't want WoW PVP to be fair, then that doesn't inspire confidence that you actually why things work the way they do. If you did understand, you wouldn't have to ask the question. No point in asking a stranger why they wouldn't change it, since we literally have no power to do so.

    Gear Progression is fundamentally tied to their active subscription business model.



    No different than regarding a gatcha game for being a gatcha game. Why does Hearthstone not just give you all the cards? Because it builds its business off people obtaining and collecting them, that's why.

    If it were up to me, I'd scrap PVP altogether. I don't think it has any place in WoW, and I think it's holding back resources they could dedicate to other parts of the game. But hey, if there's enough (to use your own words) 'losers' out there who do still PVP to keep it alive, who am I to argue against that? Business is business.
    It's just weird you are trying to define how a system works you have no experience in. Rated pvp is better without gear. Removing pvp gear vault is a good first step but there is still more to do.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    This isn't a matter of agreement. This is how epistemology works. Feel free to look it up.
    I've looked it up before and there is no agreement. It's a deeply philosophical subject with various schools of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Wrong. Legal trials do not determine truth. Which is why you can never be found innocent - only failed to be found not guilty. Trials are about facts - which is why judges are triers of fact, not triers of truth.

    You have in fact stumbled your way into the important distinction at hand right there: legal trials attempt to determine a set of circumstances that may or may not convince a trier of facts (a judge or a jury) beyond a reasonable doubt (in criminal cases; or a preponderance of evidence in civil ones) while it is epistemology that is concerned with determining knowledge about truths.

    Which is precisely why you can't unequivocally use the methods of one for the other, and precisely why I mentioned this is a category error.
    I'm just using the words interchangeably. Fact is synonymous with truth in colloquial English. I'm not trying to pinpoint any philosophical difference between the words.

    It's been a while since I talked to someone about epistemology, and I never expected to talk about it again in mmo-champion.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Harrold View Post
    It's just weird you are trying to define how a system works you have no experience in. Rated pvp is better without gear. Removing pvp gear vault is a good first step but there is still more to do.
    Like I said, if you're looking for an opinion, Rated PVP would be better if it were removed from the game.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-11-30 at 01:17 AM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    So many people have complained that Legion had "mandatory" AP grinds, and same with BFA and Shadowlands, and Shadowlands had the "mandatory" Torghast runs.

    What do they mean by "mandatory"? Are they so addicted that they feel too compelled to play the game and not capable of logging off?
    Anything with a measurable increase in player power, no matter how small. Lying on a bed of fire ants gives +0.1% DPS? It's now mandatory, and an unfair advantage for those players in places where fire ants exist.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    I'm just using the words interchangeably. Fact is synonymous with truth in colloquial English. I'm not trying to pinpoint any philosophical difference between the words.
    But I am. I'm pointing out that there's differences here, and that these differences invalidate your argument. You can go all day long saying "well I don't care!" that doesn't change what's going on.

    You have absolutely nothing.

    The best retort you've mustered so far has been "well I told some other people and they believed me, so!" - so I guess we're done? Good talk.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Two different meanings: Those pushing for world top 10 feel like XYZ is mandatory for them to remain competitive with both the other raid teams, and those wanting their spot in the raid.

    The other 99.99% of players complaining about mandatory content see those players doing XYZ and immediately feel they are forced to do the same, you know, to stay competitive in the normal mode raiding scene.
    Kind of agree. People who kill the last boss on mythic a month before patch ends and those who kill it in the first month are on average as far apart skill wise as heroic and mythic raiders.

    Still a lot of people really don't stress how little wiggle room modern mythic has now a days even when nerfed. A 18 man group playing the fight perfectly can afford 2 dead weights. If people start breaking meta, playing off meta specs, playing specs poorly that tolerance limit is hit pretty quick.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Harrold View Post
    Kind of agree. People who kill the last boss on mythic a month before patch ends and those who kill it in the first month are on average as far apart skill wise as heroic and mythic raiders.

    Still a lot of people really don't stress how little wiggle room modern mythic has now a days even when nerfed. A 18 man group playing the fight perfectly can afford 2 dead weights. If people start breaking meta, playing off meta specs, playing specs poorly that tolerance limit is hit pretty quick.
    It's just something that has always been a part of the community - I remember when fire mages were crushing it in world first groups. Thing is, they needed ALL the crit to be viable. We ran across SO many fire mages in our pug/friend and family nights that had about 1/10 of the required crit and were absolute garbage.

    Same happens with talents/skills, gear, and even what content they farm. "oh I need to do this daily because otherwise I'll call behind!" Fall behind who? The other people lugging normal?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    This is what blows my mind. I regularly participate in non-raid activities, even though I'm a primary raider, and I do it because they feel FUN to me. I don't HAVE to do them, I GET to do them. The raids are amazing, M+ is in a great place, and the open world is fun.

    Why are people bitching?
    Oh for current content: it's dead on. The old grind for days for that .01% extra power thankfully is gone. Now if I actually cared: lets say, if I was talented and went for high high level content: basically what people in classic wow call "sweaty" - then sure that grind is cool.. but for some old boomer like me to be able to pug decent io for m+ and not even care about the rest of the game at all: it makes me smile!

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