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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ek0zu View Post
    imo, if you like a game you just play it, you don't want extra incentives to do so.
    So lets remove all the gear from raiding and m+ and then we can talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    No. The game is fine as it is.

    If you only play when power is held back from you, you don't actually want to play, you are just addicted. So, stop trying to force the rest of us into boring chores cause you can't find fun in the game.
    Sick okay no gear from raids or.m+. Youll find it fun regardless

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redroniksre View Post
    They literally said Delves will be capable of getting your end Heroic level gear, so your hopes are already done. No point forcing people to play content they don't want to do. They will either burn out or just not do it.
    OR

    Theyll do it, hate it, remain subbed and then cry to daddy developer who will then cater to them. Catering to them (which they ostensible did in DF) is stupid and a remake of WoD. Its so dumb that im convinced the removal of any sort of mandatory content was a function of them being cheap and not actually catering to mid tier crybabies.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #22
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    Are we still under the belief that the majority of players raid and/or participate in M+ grinding?
    Because I'm pretty sure that group is still the minority, meaning that many players log in and enjoy the world offerings and such.

    It's fine to have different content streams where people can find their thing.
    Forcing anyone into any content stream they don't want to do is a good wya to chase them away, because at the end of the day, everyone can evaluate if it's worth it or not.
    For example, I pretty much raidlog with maybe a + or 2 here and there, and it works out great for me and my time.
    If I *had* to grind open world for 1+h every day, lest I fall behind (hi, Legion AP.......), I would most likely just no longer play.
    I still do all the story quests, all the side quests, and "finish" each zone, but I have no interest in repeating challenge-devoid content out in the world, where my time is more or less wasted.

    Now, that being said, if they add more challenging content that rewards stuff, maybe I'd give it a go.
    Delves could be a thing I add to my playtime, but at the end of the day, chasing players away by forcing them into specific content streams is not exactly great business, at least IMO.

  3. #23
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    How about nothing be "mandatory"? I play video games for fun and escapism, not because I want a second full time job. Once raiding became not fun for me, I dropped it and never looked back.

    If you make the game a grindy FOMO hellscape no one wants to play, then no one is gonna play it. That is how you kill a game.

    Make a game that is fun and, *shock and awe*, people will play it!
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    Like in BFA with the corrupted zones, in Shadowlands with Torghast, and in Legion with world quests, please make open world and solo systems "mandatory" going forward in future expansions. This game should not be a raid and mythic+ simulator where you login once a week, do a raid for a few hours, or mythic plus for 20 minutes, get your gear, then log off and be done until next season.

    Please give us an incentive to grind open world, solo systems, and other systems for more player power and progression that continues through the entire season.

    People complained about having to do "mandatory" content in previous expansions, and thus, blizzard severely cut them down in Dragonflight, announced that they "respect player time" at Blizzcon, so now Dragonflight indeed has a lot of "content", but this content is "optional" since it doesn't reward any player power but instead rewards toys, transmogs, cosmetics, and mounts. Thus, there is no real incentive to do these systems.

    Please bring the RPG back into WoW where devoting time into a grind increases player power, like it did in Legion, BFA, and Shadowlands. Don't make this game into an instanced queue action simulator akin to a mobile game where you login once a week for a few minutes, do your 10000th Everbloom dungeon from Warlords of Draenor, and log off.

    Often times I find myself logging into Dragonflight, not having the incentive to do anything, and then just logging off.

    Blizzard, adding old dungeons from previous expansions that we've done 10 million times into the current mythic plus pool is not new content. Please develop real, organic open world content instead of wasting development time with making us play old dungeons we've already done in previous expansions, and fiddling with mythic plus affixes. This is not new CONTENT!

    Please give players who don't do mythic+ or raiding, or even rated pvp, a reason to do open world content for player power progression.

    At least, please give us incentives to do other things than raid and mythic+!
    I agree that open world activities should have good rewards, and they are definitely moving forward in that direction. this patch alone proves it. however, should it be mandatory? nope.

  5. #25
    "Visions" was good because it was a source of gear that stood on its own and competed with the rest, the corruption shit was minor.

    Torghast was shit because it was mandatory for all other forms of play.

    Rather clear difference.

    Honestly getting the stick out of raiders' asses and just letting all forms of play ultimately scale up to the iLvl ceiling would be enough.
    Last edited by loras; 2023-11-29 at 03:12 PM.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    Are we still under the belief that the majority of players raid and/or participate in M+ grinding?
    Because I'm pretty sure that group is still the minority, meaning that many players log in and enjoy the world offerings and such.

    It's fine to have different content streams where people can find their thing.
    Forcing anyone into any content stream they don't want to do is a good wya to chase them away, because at the end of the day, everyone can evaluate if it's worth it or not.
    For example, I pretty much raidlog with maybe a + or 2 here and there, and it works out great for me and my time.
    If I *had* to grind open world for 1+h every day, lest I fall behind (hi, Legion AP.......), I would most likely just no longer play.
    I still do all the story quests, all the side quests, and "finish" each zone, but I have no interest in repeating challenge-devoid content out in the world, where my time is more or less wasted.

    Now, that being said, if they add more challenging content that rewards stuff, maybe I'd give it a go.
    Delves could be a thing I add to my playtime, but at the end of the day, chasing players away by forcing them into specific content streams is not exactly great business, at least IMO.
    No one is being forced to do anything, all "mandatory" content is self-imposed. If YOU the player wants to min/max then it's your choice. If you are incentivized to do something to obtain some reward, then it's on you.

    For example, someone who only raid logs will naturally be behind someone who does raiding, mythic+, rated PVP, and flighstone farming every week, because in addition to raiding, they are getting gear from other sources as well. So by this logic, is mythic+, rated pvp, and flightstone farming "mandatory"? Also by this logic Mythic raids would be "mandatory" for rated pvp players because it gives top tier gear.

    Now Delves are coming next year and this will be another source of Heroic raid level gear. So people are going to complain that Delves are now "mandatory".

    The game should reward you for doing more and more content grinds, harder content, and various gameplay loops.
    Last edited by Viratan; 2023-11-29 at 03:23 PM.

  7. #27
    In a game that, instead of having weekly tasks, or even daily tasks now has brain dead events that repeat hourly, I am glad the game isn't making me brainlessly repeat those events to progress.

    I am really confused when people ask for WOW to stop being what it always has been. I mean, I understand you wanting different things but why are you playing a game that has always been played the way you don't like. In what time has the game been good for you, that made you start and keep playing, and that now you don't like.

  8. #28
    I do the open world content regularly anyway, and had a fair amount of it to do for most of the expansion. If anything I felt like there wasn't enough of it this patch between the removal of the rep req for Pathfinder even though the rep itself with the rep buffs that worked with the tokens from the campaign I already hit the max of 20 last week.

    But no, two weeks or so of world questing is too much for some people for an entire major content patch. I can get not wanting to do it every day, which is why I like that WQs reset more like 2 times a week.

    I didn't hate the legion artifact power but that was only because I never felt the need to "try to push it as high as it'll go", recognizing how infinite grinds and exponential curves worked I paced myself, but the people at the mythic raiding level genuinely convinced themselves and each other that they had to grind AP every hour of every day and burnt out on it.

    I much prefer Dragonflight's "hey, here's some toys and such for a fairly easygoing grind you'll finish by the end of the patch" over Shadowlands and BFA's "there is literally so much anima to grind for a single transmog piece of one of 6 recolors I've long lost interest" or "Nazjatar dailies, mechagon dailies, n'zoth dailies, weekly azerite grinding, azerite levels, if I hear the word "woons" again I'm going to lose it"

    Both those expansions "had more to do", I just didn't want to do most of it because the grind wasn't fun, varied, or felt worth the time investment. Comparing running laps around Mechagon for months and still never getting the 1/1000 drop rate wheel mount to visiting Valdrakken occasionally and picking up a daycare quest and getting a new pet is no contest, I want the second one.

    I stand by that what I want to motivate me to do more varied content is more temporary solo challenges akin to the brawler's guild and mage tower. I know there's things like AOTC mounts or temporary season pvp appearances, but I like gearing for a challenge that comes down to my own skill.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2023-11-29 at 11:37 PM.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    I and many players don't consider them "boring chores". We consider this the fun, end-game, gameplay loop for us. It's considered a boring chore to "elitist" players who consider this content casual/beneath them.

    Horrifying visions, Torghast, Corrupted zones, etc. were fun for the vast majority of players. Based on statistics, most players are casual solo players who don't touch premade raids.

    Not everything has to revolve around raids.
    Fine with me.

    "All upgrades only active in the outside world".
    I'm fine with it if you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    So lets remove all the gear from raiding and m+ and then we can talk.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Sick okay no gear from raids or.m+. Youll find it fun regardless

    - - - Updated - - -



    OR

    Theyll do it, hate it, remain subbed and then cry to daddy developer who will then cater to them. Catering to them (which they ostensible did in DF) is stupid and a remake of WoD. Its so dumb that im convinced the removal of any sort of mandatory content was a function of them being cheap and not actually catering to mid tier crybabies.
    I still find it fun. Happy with cosmetic rewards only. I did do challenge modes and mage tower.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    Horrifying visions, Torghast, Corrupted zones, etc. were fun for the vast majority of players.
    Hahahaha this is the world's hardest "citation needed"

  11. #31
    I actually do way more in the open world now farming mounts and tier set appearances than I did before. I ignored torghast and corrupted gear cuz it was just annoying and didn't offer anything that I care about

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    For example, someone who only raid logs will naturally be behind someone who does raiding, mythic+, rated PVP, and flighstone farming every week, because in addition to raiding, they are getting gear from other sources as well. So by this logic, is mythic+, rated pvp, and flightstone farming "mandatory"? Also by this logic Mythic raids would be "mandatory" for rated pvp players because it gives top tier gear.
    M+ is indeed considered mandatory if you're raiding at a high enough level, it's the best way to get your ilvl up outside of raid times, and typically a few BiS items can be found there so filling your vault is worthwhile. PvP on the other hand gives gear which is much worse in PvE, so it's typically not considered worth the effort you'd have to put in, though it was encouraged early in Shadowlands when gear was much harder to come by. Currently, there's so much gear dropping at such high ilvls that it's not really necessary. I'm not sure what you think Flightstone grinding is. Flightstones come from everything, I'm drowning in them as a primarily M+ player.
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  13. #33
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    Just chiming in to state that the expansion that has catered to hardcore raiders the hardest since at least WoD has seen the raiding participation plummet like npnp. How odd, isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    I and many players don't consider them "boring chores".
    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    Horrifying visions, Torghast, Corrupted zones, etc. were fun for the vast majority of players.
    And who are the "Many Players". You had that Discussion already in a different Thread, you make baseless Claims.

    If you have like a Million Players, you have seen what? 10 Posts that say they like it?
    That would be: 0,001%
    I wouldnt even consider that a few.

    You dont even have a Poll.
    (Note: I dont know or care how many Players WoW has right now, its just to Illustrate the Point that the WoW Community is Vastly bigger than what you read on Reddit or this Forum)

    As I already also said in the Other Thread:
    Your small little Statistic is Flawed to no end. You live in your own little "Solo Play" Bubble, obviously the majority of people you interact with, are kinda likeminded. That means, you feel like the majority of people share your Opinion. But there are actually alot of people with alot of Opinions.
    E.g.: Most of the People I play with, absolutely dont share your Ideas for various reasons.
    One for example only has time to play on the Weekends, obviously he doesnt want to do his oh so engaging and fun open world Content alone, he wants to go raid with the rest of the Community, because its like you said: A Multiplayer game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    Based on statistics, most players are casual solo players who don't touch premade raids.
    Which Statistics? Sources Please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viratan View Post
    I do not find anything wrong with that. This is an MMO, and people do mini-games within an MMO for their reward. I need to grind gold, crafting, professions, etc. for some reward that I find desirable. That's just the nature of the game.
    Honestly, go play an Asian Grind MMO if you like a game beeing a Chore for stuff you want. Because this is your only Argument:
    "I Want everybody to suffer and grind the same stuff"


    But how would you like it, if you would have to also do a Mythic+20 and Kill a Mythic Raidboss, for your rewards, Mandatory, cant skip it. You only get your Rewards, if you complete all weekly OpenWorld Content, a +20 Dungeon, and at least one Mythic Raidboss.
    Gotta need to be fair.

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