We will probably see a new Class during the Worldsoul Saga

[Ielenia]

Evidence doesn't need to be "concrete" to be evidence. There is circumstantial evidence for example.

Evidence needs to be evidence. You have nothing. Concrete, circumstantial, anecdotal, metaphorical, technical or whatever.

There's literally no evidence for the idea of a mid-expansion class release. And "I want it to happen" is not evidence. It's just wishful thinking.

]#1. Gazlowe's new model is based on the Tinker hero model from HotS:

That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release. All expansions bring new, updated models for NPCs.

#2. Goblins and Gazlowe are possibly late additions to The War Within

That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release. Goblins are also not late additions. You can't claim that while at the same time claim it was all planned because of Gazlowe's short story.

#3. Undermine replacing Rootlands?

That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release. You're taking flimsy speculations as facts.

#4. Blizzard's track record with classes and themes.

That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release. If you really want to use "Blizzard's track record", I'll remind you that they have no "mid-expansion class release" in their track records.

#5. Augmentation Evokers as a precursor and model for major mid-expansion content

That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release. You keep ignoring reality that the evoker's third spec was delayed because it wasn't ready for the expansion's release. It wasn't delayed to "boost hype" or "player retention". It was delayed because it needed further development to make it work.

#6. Where's the other support spec?

That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release. We'll have more support specs if Blizzard adds a new class to the game, or adds fourth specs for existing classes.

#7. Earthen Tinkers

That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release.

In conclusion: none of what you posted above is actual evidence of a mid-expansion class release, concrete or circumstantial, individually or collectively. In fact, none of that points or hints at all at that possibility.

Yeah we discussed this, but it is interesting that we got our first claw pack on this race of character;

And yet said "claw pack" is never used, at all. Not even on auto-attacks.

I want to also point out that their Azerite-based ability is quite interesting, since I've longed believed that a technology class would use Azerite-based abilities.

Because the Earthen are made from Azeroth's azerite-infused earth, not because of machines.

[Nightshade711]

Faction balance.

Dwarves are a nice to have, not a need to have Tinker-wise.

I doubt blizzard cares about “faction balance” for race/class combos. Given the horde has more Druids & Shaman than the alliance does.

If Tinkers are race locked they’re probably only going to be Goblins/Earthen on horde side, because Vulpera make absolutely zero sense.

[Teriz]

I doubt blizzard cares about “faction balance” for race/class combos. Given the horde has more Druids & Shaman than the alliance does.

If Tinkers are race locked they’re probably only going to be Goblins/Earthen on horde side, because Vulpera make absolutely zero sense.

Every expansion class they've released has had factional parity. So it's likely 3 on Horde and 3 on Alliance.

Vulpera make sense in the fact that Goblins and Gnomes turned to technology in order to allow them to fight against larger, stronger races. Vulpera are in a similar situation as a small race, and they were also subjugated by the Sethrak on Zandalar. I could see some Vulpera looking to Goblin technology as a way forward.

In terms of raw business sense, Vulpera are a very popular allied race, and I could see people gravitate towards the idea of a fox race using technology. They also use the Goblin skeleton, and are pretty much the Goblin allied race.

[deviantcultist]

Can't you wait for The Last Titan, like the rest of us?
It's the most plausible setting.

What will happen to the Cosmic Void stuff during Midnight? Will it just be "cool things only for enemy NPC + 1 spell for Shadowpriest"? That's too much of a compromise to satisfy the entitlement of adding a pure tech class in TLT.

[Teriz]

Evidence needs to be evidence. You have nothing. Concrete, circumstantial, anecdotal, metaphorical, technical or whatever.

There's literally no evidence for the idea of a mid-expansion class release. And "I want it to happen" is not evidence. It's just wishful thinking.


That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release. All expansions bring new, updated models for NPCs.

Why was Gazlowe's model unfinished at TWW launch?

That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release. Goblins are also not late additions. You can't claim that while at the same time claim it was all planned because of Gazlowe's short story.

Then why was Gazlowe and the goblins not mentioned at BlizzCon 2023?

That's not evidence of a mid-expansion class release. You're taking flimsy speculations as facts.

Then why move Rootlands out of 11.1 for Undermine if it's obviously going to bring in a new allied race? Wouldn't Undermine need to bring something as important as an allied race if its taking that spot?

I'm not going to go through every single one, but yeah there's a little smoke here. We'll see if it turns into a fire.

- - - Updated - - -

What will happen to the Cosmic Void stuff during Midnight? Will it just be "cool things only for enemy NPC + 1 spell for Shadowpriest"? That's too much of a compromise to satisfy the entitlement of adding a pure tech class in TLT.

TBF, we have a class that is half Void and 2 hero talent trees dedicated to it. That class encompasses both cosmic and old god void abilities.

We have no class or hero talents dedicated to technology.

[username993720]

That's the thing; I'm not sure it is.

Like I said earlier, a Goblin-based class doesn't really fit in a Titan expansion.

You were blabbering about Titan tech class a moment ago. You flip faster than a burger.
And, it can fit. It just doesn't need to be Titanic. If Earthen fit within the boundaries of a tech class, then my concept of a titan expansion introducing a tech class works, since Khaz'goroth, the creator of the Earthen, is gonna be the patron Titan of the class.

What will happen to the Cosmic Void stuff during Midnight? Will it just be "cool things only for enemy NPC + 1 spell for Shadowpriest"? That's too much of a compromise to satisfy the entitlement of adding a pure tech class in TLT.

I know you want a Cosmic Void class, but i don't see one happening. Though, i can see a Void spec for Warlocks.

[Teriz]

You were blabbering about Titan tech class a moment ago. You flip faster than a burger.
And, it can fit. It just doesn't need to be Titanic. If Earthen fit within the boundaries of a tech class, then my concept of a titan expansion introducing a tech class works, since Khaz'goroth, the creator of the Earthen, is gonna be the patron Titan of the class.

The problem is really two-fold though; Gazlowe would have to be a major character in The Last Titan to justify a class based on him being introduced in that expansion. The other problem is that the Gazlowe-based technology concept has established abilities and attributes from HotS and WC3. Some of those HotS abilities have already been translated into WoW.

I'd just like to remind everyone that the last time a large portion of a HotS character's abilities were ported into WoW, that character's class became playable (Sylvanas).

[Nightshade711]

Every expansion class they've released has had factional parity. So it's likely 3 on Horde and 3 on Alliance.

If Blizzard cared about the faction balance, then they’d simply add Tinkers for everyone. Vulpera have 0 technological skills as a race, and make no sense to be Tinkers if the class is restricted.

But either way, it is about time for a new class that isn’t restricted. We have 2 unrestricted classes and 2 restricted.
If we get Tinkers it would make sense for every race to be one, given every race can learn Goblin/Gnomish engineering (and more) and create mechs, turrets, etc.

They also use the Goblin skeleton, and are pretty much the Goblin allied race.

Vulpera have nothing to do with Goblins. Sharing skeletons doesn’t mean they are the same.

It’d be like saying Mogu can be Lightforged Artificers because they share the same skeleton.
Or that Night Elves can breathe and fight underwater because they share a skeleton with the Jinyu/Ankoan.

[Teriz]

If Blizzard cared about the faction balance, then they’d simply add Tinkers for everyone. Vulpera have 0 technological skills as a race, and make no sense to be Tinkers if the class is restricted.

There was this guy though;

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tinkerin%27_Taji

So who knows?

It’d be like saying Mogu can be Lightforged Artificers because they share the same skeleton.
Or that Night Elves can breathe and fight underwater because they share a skeleton with the Jinyu/Ankoan.

Eh, not really. There's a pretty big difference between what you're talking about here, and giving a race using the goblin skeleton the goblin-based class.

[Eldryth]

What will happen to the Cosmic Void stuff during Midnight? Will it just be "cool things only for enemy NPC + 1 spell for Shadowpriest"? That's too much of a compromise to satisfy the entitlement of adding a pure tech class in TLT.

Still seems like the most likely outcome by far. They've been fleshing out the Void a lot in the past couple expansions, and that's before the expansion we're about to get about a full Cosmic Void invasion. And, unlike many themes that can be repeated at any time, Midnight might actually be the last chance for the Void since Metzen sold it as the grand finale to the Void where we banish it from Azeroth forever.

TBF, we have a class that is half Void and 2 hero talent trees dedicated to it. That class encompasses both cosmic and old god void abilities.

We have no class or hero talents dedicated to technology.

I can believe that you really convinced yourself that your Tinker "evidence" amounts to more than "Goblins are appearing in the story" broken down into every tiny detail of said appearance you can find, and it doesn't seem like anything is going to convince yourself otherwise. But vastly misrepresenting more and more things only makes it seem like you're arguing in bad faith.


Sure, the idea that the Void is properly represented by Shadow Priest is a fair misunderstanding if you've never taken a proper look at Priests (though you should know better since you've pushed this argument before and been debunked every time), but actually playing it makes it very clear that it has nothing in common with the Void we've been seeing lately beyond that one token effect Voidweavers have (Entropic Rift). And if you really want to stretch it, one core spell (Void Torrent) and one other Voidweaver effect (Void Blast) use the Cosmic Void color scheme but nothing more.

I should know this better than most, since the Void we saw in Sarkareth's fight is what got me to give Shadow Priest a proper try. It wasn't even remotely similar, and those differences only grow (even with the aforementioned token effect that was added) as the Cosmic Void has been fleshed out far more in TWW.


And frankly, fixating on any tangential similarities would be missing the point entirely. They introduced a very different kind of Void user over the past few expansions. Created some cool new characters that use it (Ky'veza, Locus Walker, Sarkareth) and altered some others (Alleria). This created a popular new fantasy that is glaringly unplayable since they use the Void so vastly differently from Priests. And there is very clearly room for both, just as there was plenty of room for DH to be added alongside Warlock (and those two had significantly more overlap than this back before DH was added, thanks to the old version of Demo).


It's fair to debate whether Blizzard will- or should- act on that missing niche, but there's really no question that there's room for it and it's distinct from all current options.

[Teriz]

I can believe that you really convinced yourself that your Tinker "evidence" amounts to more than "Goblins are appearing in the story" broken down into every tiny detail of said appearance you can find, and it doesn't seem like anything is going to convince yourself otherwise. But vastly misrepresenting more and more things only makes it seem like you're arguing in bad faith.


Sure, the idea that the Void is properly represented by Shadow Priest is a fair misunderstanding if you've never taken a proper look at Priests (though you should know better since you've pushed this argument before and been debunked every time), but actually playing it makes it very clear that it has nothing in common with the Void we've been seeing lately beyond that one token effect Voidweavers have (Entropic Rift). And if you really want to stretch it, one core spell (Void Torrent) and one other Voidweaver effect (Void Blast) use the Cosmic Void color scheme but nothing more.

I should know this better than most, since the Void we saw in Sarkareth's fight is what got me to give Shadow Priest a proper try. It wasn't even remotely similar, and those differences only grow (even with the aforementioned token effect that was added) as the Cosmic Void has been fleshed out far more in TWW.

I simply can't agree with the argument that Shadow Priest has NOTHING to do with the void you've been seeing lately. It literally has 4 talents at the bottom of the SP tree dedicated to the Old Gods. The Void we've largely been dealing with at this point IS Old God-based. X'alatath is related to the Old Gods as well.

Within the Shadow Priest spec, you have access to Old God magic, Psychic abilities, Void minions, and Cosmic void.

What's missing? Entropic Rift is a one of the coolest effects within the hero talents, and its completely cosmic void, I have no idea why you're trying to pretend like that very obvious and very awesome ability doesn't exist in the Priest class. What's more, Voidweaver is going to be expanded upon in the next expansion when the hero talent trees undoubtedly get more talent points.

And frankly, fixating on any tangential similarities would be missing the point entirely. They introduced a very different kind of Void user over the past few expansions. Created some cool new characters that use it (Ky'veza, Locus Walker, Sarkareth) and altered some others (Alleria). This created a popular new fantasy that is glaringly unplayable since they use the Void so vastly differently from Priests. And there is very clearly room for both, just as there was plenty of room for DH to be added alongside Warlock (and those two had significantly more overlap than this back before DH was added, thanks to the old version of Demo).


It's fair to debate whether Blizzard will- or should- act on that missing niche, but there's really no question that there's room for it and it's distinct from all current options.

Eh, I do believe that Voidweaver is going to be expanded to include the more caster-based variety of cosmic void that you're talking about with Locus Walker and Sarkareth (though some of Sark's abilities migrated to the Evoker class). Obviously the more martial variation of the Void (Alleria and Ky'veza) isn't available, and we'll have to wait and see if Blizzard believes that there is enough of a missing play style/archetype to justify creating a class around it.

My general point is that it's a rather dubious argument to say that there's no way to play void or cosmic void in the class lineup, or that the Priest class isn't offering "the type of void we've been seeing". The Priest class offers multiple levels of Void gameplay in 2 specs and 2 hero talents. That's far better than the tech class situation where there are 0 specs and 0 hero talent trees dedicated to that archetype. In that situation, it's a little unfair to say that people who are pushing for a tech class are acting "entitled".

[Eldryth]

I simply can't agree with the argument that Shadow Priest has NOTHING to do with the void you've been seeing lately. It literally has 4 talents at the bottom of the SP tree dedicated to the Old Gods. The Void we've largely been dealing with at this point IS Old God-based. X'alatath is related to the Old Gods as well.

Within the Shadow Priest spec, you have access to Old God magic, Psychic abilities, Void minions, and Cosmic void.

They are related, but very obviously different if you ever bother to look at the current Void. It has a distinctly different look, theme, and feel compared to the Old God stuff that Shadow Priest revolves around, and Shadow Priest does not even attempt to cover it beyond that one single effect.

Frankly, they're so different that I can't even imagine how you can attempt to conflate them. The Cosmic Void consistently uses highly destructive blue energy, and usually cosmic bodies like stars, meteors, black holes, etc. Shadow Priests, on the other hand, are all about slow corruption and DoTs using purple shadows and psychic abilities.

The only overlap they have is in Voidweaver, and even there, the only thing that truly engages with the Cosmic Void theme is Entropic Rift. And that is simply not enough to change Shadow Priests into a completely different fantasy.

What's missing? Entropic Rift is a one of the coolest effects within the hero talents, and its completely cosmic void, I have no idea why you're trying to pretend like that very obvious and very awesome ability doesn't exist in the Priest class. What's more, Voidweaver is going to be expanded upon in the next expansion when the hero talent trees undoubtedly get more talent points.

Again, Entropic Rift exists, but is one single passive effect that doesn't change the overall class into something fundamentally different. A single passive effect, no matter how cool, is nowhere near enough to cover any theme- particularly when it's just slapped on top of a distinctly different fantasy. Shadow Priests will always be about DoTs and corruption, and nearly all of the Void we've been seeing lately is completely different from that.

To compare it to the example you love, if Hunter got a Tinker Hero Spec that just slapped a Claw Pack on their back that attacked passively with very little engagement from you beyond a few synchronized effects with your actual spells, would you consider the Tinker fantasy to be suitably filled? I assume not, as that would be an incredibly poor substitute. But that is absolutely the level of coverage that the Cosmic Void has right now.

The Priest class offers multiple levels of Void gameplay in 2 specs and 2 hero talents.

No, it has one passive effect in one hero spec that deals with the Cosmic Void, and two other spells that use the color scheme only. It's an enormous reach to call that any level of Cosmic Void gameplay, let alone sufficient coverage.

In that situation, it's a little unfair to say that people who are pushing for a tech class are acting "entitled".

Eh, a lot of people posting about tech classes do often try and push the narrative that it's the only valid missing option, or that getting a tech class during the Saga is a given and all other discussion must work around that, and that is certainly wrong and entitled. It is just as valid as any other potential new class, but no more. I'd love to get Artificer above all else in one of these expansions myself, but I know it's far from a given, and not even the most likely outcome. I can get why people would feel irritated by that general trend, though as that post didn't seem to be directed at any particular poster I can only assume that's what they meant.

[Ielenia]

Why was Gazlowe's model unfinished at TWW launch?

What do you mean with "unfinished"? Was Anduin's model "unfinished" until BfA's launch? Was Jaina's model "unfinished" until BfA? No character models in the game are "unfinished". They are what they are by design until the developers decide to give them a glow-up.

Then why was Gazlowe and the goblins not mentioned at BlizzCon 2023?

You do know that when the expansion was announced, its entire storyline, from first to last content patch, was already decided long before Blizzcon was live, right? Please tell me you don't think that Blizzard didn't know what the hell they would do with patch 11.1 story-wise until after Blizzcon.

Then why move Rootlands out of 11.1 for Undermine

Rootlands was never officially content for 11.1. That was entirely player-driven guesses.

if it's obviously going to bring in a new allied race?

Same thing: it's not "obviously" going to bring in a new allied race. That is entirely player-driven guesses.

I'm not going to go through every single one, but yeah there's a little smoke here. We'll see if it turns into a fire.

There's no fire and there's no embers. And whatever smoke you think you're seeing are just normal clouds.

Like I said: nothing in your post points toward "mid-expansion class release", even circumstantially. Individually or otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -

If Blizzard cared about the faction balance, then they’d simply add Tinkers for everyone. Vulpera have 0 technological skills as a race, and make no sense to be Tinkers if the class is restricted.

The only Horde race less technologically-inclined than the vulpera are the tauren. The only reason Teriz keeps shoe-horning them into all tech classes is because they're a short race.

If we get Tinkers it would make sense for every race to be one, given every race can learn Goblin/Gnomish engineering (and more) and create mechs, turrets, etc.

Hell, we have canon evidence of even night elf tinkers, at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, Entropic Rift exists, but is one single passive effect that doesn't change the overall class into something fundamentally different. A single passive effect, no matter how cool, is nowhere near enough to cover any theme- particularly when it's just slapped on top of a distinctly different fantasy.

You're talking to someone who claims the priest possesses and controls the entire "music magic" concept of the bard because they have this ability called 'Hymn' that has a graphical effect of the character singing.

[Eldryth]

You're talking to someone who claims the priest possesses and controls the entire "music magic" concept of the bard because they have this ability called 'Hymn' that has a graphical effect of the character singing.

Yeah, I'm probably not going to convince him and probably won't continue after this- I know that he tends to stick to his feelings no matter what. Still, plenty of others are reading this thread who might not be familiar with Priest and might buy into that particular misinformation (I mean, it would have sounded right to me had I not played Shadow Priest in Dragonflight), so I hate leaving it completely uncorrected.

[Teriz]

They are related, but very obviously different if you ever bother to look at the current Void. It has a distinctly different look, theme, and feel compared to the Old God stuff that Shadow Priest revolves around, and Shadow Priest does not even attempt to cover it beyond that one single effect.

Frankly, they're so different that I can't even imagine how you can attempt to conflate them. The Cosmic Void consistently uses highly destructive blue energy, and usually cosmic bodies like stars, meteors, black holes, etc. Shadow Priests, on the other hand, are all about slow corruption and DoTs using purple shadows and psychic abilities.

The only overlap they have is in Voidweaver, and even there, the only thing that truly engages with the Cosmic Void theme is Entropic Rift. And that is simply not enough to change Shadow Priests into a completely different fantasy.


Again, Entropic Rift exists, but is one single passive effect that doesn't change the overall class into something fundamentally different. A single passive effect, no matter how cool, is nowhere near enough to cover any theme- particularly when it's just slapped on top of a distinctly different fantasy. Shadow Priests will always be about DoTs and corruption, and nearly all of the Void we've been seeing lately is completely different from that.

No offense, but this seems like an issue with cosmetics, not mechanics. For example, the Shadow Priest spec has Void Eruption and Void Form. After you enter Void Form you can fire Void Bolts. Are we seriously going to pretend that that isn't the void you're talking about because it's purple instead of blue?

Also you're wrong about Entropic Rift being the only aspect of that hero talent tree that's reflected by cosmic void. There's also Void Blast, and the ability to summon a Void Wraith.

So outside of creating a rift in space time that consumes anything around it, and having the ability to increase the size and power of that void rift and summon a void entity, and the ability to take on a void form and launch void bolts at a target, what mechanics are Shadow Priest missing that you think needs to be represented here?

To compare it to the example you love, if Hunter got a Tinker Hero Spec that just slapped a Claw Pack on their back that attacked passively with very little engagement from you beyond a few synchronized effects with your actual spells, would you consider the Tinker fantasy to be suitably filled? I assume not, as that would be an incredibly poor substitute. But that is absolutely the level of coverage that the Cosmic Void has right now.

But that's not the case here. In the case of Entropic Rift, Void Blast, and Void Wraith, you're getting mechanics that are based on the cosmic void, and that's if we're completely ignoring the large amount of void stuff in the Shadow Priest tree itself. I mean void form looks like this;



Why are we pretending that that has nothing to do with the Void concept? Because it's purple instead of blue?

No, it has one passive effect in one hero spec that deals with the Cosmic Void, and two other spells that use the color scheme only. It's an enormous reach to call that any level of Cosmic Void gameplay, let alone sufficient coverage.

Yeah this is false. If you look at the hero talent tree, Entropic Rift alone causes a variety of passive effects on both the caster and the target. Not to mention that you have an ability that increase the size and the power of the rift, and abilities that work off of the rift. What are we missing here?

- - - Updated - - -

What do you mean with "unfinished"?

Gazlowe's model in the beginning of TWW;



Gazlowe's model in 11.0.7;



Do you have any other examples of a character getting a model upgrade twice in the span of a single major patch?

You do know that when the expansion was announced, its entire storyline, from first to last content patch, was already decided long before Blizzcon was live, right? Please tell me you don't think that Blizzard didn't know what the hell they would do with patch 11.1 story-wise until after Blizzcon.

I'm simply asking why Gazlowe and Goblins were never mentioned to be part of TWW, like at all. You even made that argument that Gazlowe wasn't a major character in the expansion because he didn't appear at BlizzCon. I mean his model was clearly not finished yet, so that may be part of it, but again they didn't announce Goblin involvement at all.

Perhaps the Goblins and Gazlowe weren't shoehorned into the expansion at the last minute and were planned all along. However if that's the case, why hide that from the public and not mention it at BlzzCon? Gazlowe is a rather popular character.

Rootlands was never officially content for 11.1. That was entirely player-driven guesses.


Same thing: it's not "obviously" going to bring in a new allied race. That is entirely player-driven guesses.

I never said it was official content for 11.1. I said it was removed content. Also I said that its strange that we have this material for Oweyna in 11.0.7 yet she's not going to play a major role in 11.1.

BTW, it wasn't just player-driven guesses;

https://www.wowhead.com/news/harroni...-within-338838
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/news/w...thereal-raids/

There's no fire and there's no embers. And whatever smoke you think you're seeing are just normal clouds.

Like I said: nothing in your post points toward "mid-expansion class release", even circumstantially. Individually or otherwise.

You mean just like you said Gazlowe wasn't going to be a major character in TWW?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/1198489.jpg

Do you have any other examples of a character getting a model upgrade twice in the span of a single major patch?

Thrall with his update in cata and then fire lands.



Garrosh was updated patch in mop with you even being able to find random model swaps in mop questing.


Sylvanas might not count as it was in beta and then launch but she went from middle to right in wrath.


Mekkatoqure, though a rather small change.




likely more examples these were off the top of my head.

[Teriz]

Thrall with his update in cata and then fire lands.

Top pic was Cataclysm, bottom image is Thrall in MoP.

Garrosh was updated patch in mop with you even being able to find random model swaps in mop questing.

I'm pretty sure those models are from multiple expansions.

Sylvanas might not count as it was in beta and then launch but she went from middle to right in wrath.

Yeah, the Gazlowe model went live.

Mekkatoqure, though a rather small change.

That was also a story-driven change.

likely more examples these were off the top of my head.

Fair, but I think this is a different case. Especially since Gazlowe wasn't even mentioned at BlizzCon.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Top pic was Cataclysm, bottom image is Thrall in MoP.

It was firelands they even used the updated model for the cinimatic.

I'm pretty sure those models are from multiple expansions.

They are but 3-6 were all used in mop.

[Eldryth]

I know I just said I shouldn't feed this, but this is so baffling that I couldn't resist...

Why are we pretending that that has nothing to do with the Void concept? Because it's purple instead of blue?

Yeah, I have absolutely no clue what you even think the Cosmic Void is at this point, but it's clearly not what we're actually seeing in the game. That is a very good example of the classic Old God style magic, with absolutely no similarities to the Cosmic Void that we've been discussing. Not just in color- nothing about it resembles the Cosmic stuff we've been facing. The tentacles and shadows- right now those themes are only present for stuff related to the Black Blood, like Bloodbound Horror- where it actually fits as an Old God thing.

It's completely different and distinct from the vast majority of Void content we're seeing. Just look at Ky'veza for a particularly obvious example- how can you possibly think that your screenshot is anywhere near the same theme as that!? And you constantly bring up Shadow Priest having stuff that's completely unrelated to the Cosmic aspects as if that somehow gives them Cosmic Void. You bring up Old God stuff, psychic powers, minions... all of that is solidly within the classic Shadow/Old God domain, and very different from every bit of Cosmic Void that we've been facing. The closest overlap we've had was Sarkareth's Null Glimmers and Ky'veza's echoes vaguely resembling apparitions.

Seriously, apart from vastly exaggerating Entropic Rift's impact, every single thing you've tried to push has completely contradicted your own point. You know you won't be able to properly debate something- whether for or against- if you don't at least acknowledge what it actually is, right?

Yeah this is false. If you look at the hero talent tree, Entropic Rift alone causes a variety of passive effects on both the caster and the target. Not to mention that you have an ability that increase the size and the power of the rift, and abilities that work off of the rift. What are we missing here?

Literally anything of consequence, to start?

Every bit of it is just passive effects that occur while playing Shadow normally, doing stuff that fits the Old God theme rather than Cosmic Void. The playstyle and rotation impact is minimal and mostly amounts to raising the reskinned Mind Blast's priority while the Rift is up. You're still using Old God magic, shadows, dots, etc. almost exclusively, just with actual Void stuff happening passively with minimal engagement.

Anyway, I'm done with this now- like I said, you've made it clear that you have no intention to actually acknowledge anything we're actually seeing about the Cosmic Void, despite the many clear examples all over this expansion, so there's nowhere this can go except in circles.

I never said it was official content for 11.1. I said it was removed content. Also I said that its strange that we have this material for Oweyna in 11.0.7 yet she's not going to play a major role in 11.1.

BTW, it wasn't just player-driven guesses;

https://www.wowhead.com/news/harroni...-within-338838
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/news/w...thereal-raids/

I'd be incredibly shocked if the Rootlands was actually removed. It was always the most heavily-teased future content for TWW (now alongside the Worldcore), but it was always a question of when it would come, not if. With Undermine now in play, it just seems like the Rootlands getting a longer buildup fo 11.2 rather than the immediate upcoming tier (probably combined with the Worldcore since there's no time left for that otherwise).

I mean, it's possible that it could have just been a fakeout entirely, but the odds of that happening with something so important (given its importance to Elune and Eonar's lore) are far too low to base theories around that. The most likely answer here by far is that it was always going to be Undermine in 11.1 and Rootlands/Worldcore in 11.2.

[Ielenia]

Gazlowe's model in the beginning of TWW;

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...al/1168753.jpg

Gazlowe's model in 11.0.7;

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...al/1198489.jpg

I would hardly call it "unfinished". In fact, I'd say calling it "unfinished" is just a blatant lie.

I'm simply asking why Gazlowe and Goblins were never mentioned to be part of TWW, like at all.

Go back to each and watch every Blizzcon where they announce a new expansion and talk about it, then tell me if they have ever discussed X.1 patch content in that same Blizzcon event. Did Blizzard talk about Korthia when they announced Shadowlands? Did they talk about mechagnomes when they announced BfA? Did they talk about how we would return to Karazhan when they announced the Legion expansion?

Perhaps the Goblins and Gazlowe weren't shoehorned into the expansion at the last minute and were planned all along. However if that's the case, why hide that from the public and not mention it at BlzzCon? Gazlowe is a rather popular character.

Because goblins and Undermine were not part of the first season of TWW's main story. Because Blizzard never talks about the contents of first content patches during the expansion's announcement.

You mean just like you said Gazlowe wasn't going to be a major character in TWW?

You're just going to continue insisting on that lie no matter how many times I correct you, aren't you?

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I'd be incredibly shocked if the Rootlands was actually removed. It was always the most heavily-teased future content for TWW (now alongside the Worldcore), but it was always a question of when it would come, not if. With Undermine now in play, it just seems like the Rootlands getting a longer buildup fo 11.2 rather than the immediate upcoming tier (probably combined with the Worldcore since there's no time left for that otherwise).

I mean, it's possible that it could have just been a fakeout entirely, but the odds of that happening with something so important (given its importance to Elune and Eonar's lore) are far too low to base theories around that. The most likely answer here by far is that it was always going to be Undermine in 11.1 and Rootlands/Worldcore in 11.2.

I'm fairly sure Rootlands is going to be part of the last patch. My guess is: whatever Gallywix is doing causes that black blood to seep into the Rootlands and cause everything in there to become corrupted, which would bring the harronir into focus again as it'd force them out of hiding/reclusion to deal with it, and we end up helping them.