1. #10081
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    My favorite part of Stormstrike damage is that Stormstrike doesn't do Stormstrike damage.
    yeah.
    The damage types have a certain naming convention going on. Like all multi-damage types that have a physical damage half, have strike at the end (Stormstrike, Flamestrike, Froststrike, Holystrike, Shadowstrike, Spellstrike). And the word for nature and physical damage was stormstrike. And there isn't a reason not to make Stormstrike deal stormstrike damage. But then again, neither does Flamestrike deal Flamestrike damage
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If we somehow do get a void Hunter class, I’ll be the first one to post in this thread to admit my error.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    I mean, trying to worm out of the way it's the WORLDSOUL saga... yah. It's Azeroth reaching out, not some light fairy.
    Enforcer (Warden/Spellbreaker) Class Idea , Naga using Worgen Rig Mockup, Blizz Class Survey

  2. #10082
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    All of the characters you listed were influenced by old gods and Prior to legion Shadow priest didn’t have much old god theming.

    Shadow used to just be the forsaken/darker twist on priest that was perfectly fine for the user to dabble in without risking there mind as it had little to no ties the void and old gods depending on the race.
    Yeah, but I’m talking about Shadow Priest in its current iteration. There’s a lot of Old God stuff in it, so it using insanity as a resource isn’t far fetched.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    If you want dedicated cosmic void user, shadow is not an option, because your entropic rift is available only for few seconds and then you need to wait for CD. You can't fully immerse yourself in that fantasy.

    As a priest main, I would be fine if certain elements were pruned from shadow to help them shape new and coherent identity and introducing new class which fully develops other facets of the Void.
    Have you ever considered that, like Dark Ranger, there’s really only enough cosmic void material for hero tree talents? Perhaps in Blizzard’s view there isn’t enough unique material for a class, but enough for it to be an expandable hero talent tree. I believe Voidweaver is an indication of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scyth View Post
    Also, you said shadow-based classes, hope you notice that. I am talking about Void-based. I want a class that only uses spells from this new Void-theme they've got going on lately, not shadow spells.
    Okay, so beyond a different color for spell effects, what unique properties would say a void melee have that shadow melee wouldn't?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2025-01-07 at 11:09 AM.

  3. #10083
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Have you ever considered that, like Dark Ranger, there’s really only enough cosmic void material for hero tree talents? Perhaps in Blizzard’s view there isn’t enough unique material for a class, but enough for it to be an expandable hero talent tree. I believe Voidweaver is an indication of that.
    It is fine in a scope of hero talents. However, there is clear demand for fully dedicated class/spec for cosmic void and hero talents are not able to provide that, in their current form.
    Also as Blizzard described hero talents, they are meant only as addition to their base specs and they are not meant to overtake class identity completely. For that reason, I believe there is good chance of a cosmic void class, be it caster or martial class.

  4. #10084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    It is fine in a scope of hero talents. However, there is clear demand for fully dedicated class/spec for cosmic void and hero talents are not able to provide that, in their current form.
    Also as Blizzard described hero talents, they are meant only as addition to their base specs and they are not meant to overtake class identity completely. For that reason, I believe there is good chance of a cosmic void class, be it caster or martial class.
    I understand completely what you're saying. However, there was also demand for a Dark Ranger class as well, and that was placed into a hero talent tree.

    I get that in your opinion the hero talent tree isn't providing the fantasy you want, but that doesn't mean that it isn't providing that fantasy to other players. In addition, the talent tree is going to expand over multiple expansions, so at some point, it very well could give you the cosmic void fantasy you desire. I'm simply saying it's kind of weird to pretend that Shadow Priests aren't offering cosmic void gameplay when they literally are. It might not be enough for you, but it is there.

  5. #10085
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I understand completely what you're saying. However, there was also demand for a Dark Ranger class as well, and that was placed into a hero talent tree.

    I get that in your opinion the hero talent tree isn't providing the fantasy you want, but that doesn't mean that it isn't providing that fantasy to other players. In addition, the talent tree is going to expand over multiple expansions, so at some point, it very well could give you the cosmic void fantasy you desire. I'm simply saying it's kind of weird to pretend that Shadow Priests aren't offering cosmic void gameplay when they literally are. It might not be enough for you, but it is there.
    In my opinion, Dark Rangers never really had enough meat for a full class and I was never obsessed with them, but if Blizzard would like to explore them as a class, I believe they absolutely could.

    As for cosmic void, Sarkareth fight showed they developed whole new animation/art style to the Void which is new and unique. They were able to create many NPC abilities so far, including Alleria and some void elf NPCs in Telogrus who are clearly not shadow priests. I am also sure encounter with Xal'atath will feature that heavily as well, so there is enough going on around cosmic void, in various forms (both spellcasting, archery and melee combat). Dark Rangers only had few types of dark arrows and banshee screams. Pretty narrow concept in comparison to what we've seen developed for cosmic void... and demand is here, too.

    Also, I've seen on X some posters showing recently datamined Astromancer set. Considering you often take new sets as hints (clockwork and warden transmogs on Trader's Post), this could be a hit for you for an Astromancer class.

  6. #10086
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Okay, so beyond a different color for spell effects, what unique properties would say a void melee have that shadow melee wouldn't?
    What's shadow melee? We don't have a melee class that is focused primarily on shadow spells.

    I'd love to answer your question but sadly I'm not creative enough to come up with one for them. I also don't think a new class has to have unique properties for it to exist tbh although I am sure any new class we get will have something unique to them, similar to Evoker.

  7. #10087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    In my opinion, Dark Rangers never really had enough meat for a full class and I was never obsessed with them, but if Blizzard would like to explore them as a class, I believe they absolutely could.

    As for cosmic void, Sarkareth fight showed they developed whole new animation/art style to the Void which is new and unique. They were able to create many NPC abilities so far, including Alleria and some void elf NPCs in Telogrus who are clearly not shadow priests. I am also sure encounter with Xal'atath will feature that heavily as well, so there is enough going on around cosmic void, in various forms (both spellcasting, archery and melee combat). Dark Rangers only had few types of dark arrows and banshee screams. Pretty narrow concept in comparison to what we've seen developed for cosmic void... and demand is here, too.

    Also, I've seen on X some posters showing recently datamined Astromancer set. Considering you often take new sets as hints (clockwork and warden transmogs on Trader's Post), this could be a hit for you for an Astromancer class.
    Are there any particular abilities from Sarkareth that you feel wouldn't fit in the Shadow Priest class or its talents? I could see stuff like Astral Formation, Cosmic Ascension, and Void Bomb in the Spreist class pretty easily.

  8. #10088
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Are there any particular abilities from Sarkareth that you feel wouldn't fit in the Shadow Priest class or its talents? I could see stuff like Astral Formation, Cosmic Ascension, and Void Bomb in the Spreist class pretty easily.
    These spells are rather bursty and does not fit overall design of a shadow spec, which is about DoT management and channeled spells. Since start of DF, Blizzard nerfed shadow priest's Burst several times already, so it is clearly not part of vision they have for the spec.

    New class have liberty of iterating cosmic void in a more bursty design.

  9. #10089
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scyth View Post
    What's shadow melee? We don't have a melee class that is focused primarily on shadow spells.
    Well we kinda do, and that's Death Knights. I think what you're looking for is a void melee that's doing Voidweaver stuff but while doing melee.

    I'd love to answer your question but sadly I'm not creative enough to come up with one for them. I also don't think a new class has to have unique properties for it to exist tbh although I am sure any new class we get will have something unique to them, similar to Evoker.
    I think what people miss in these discussions is how a "need" is formed that leads to the creation of classes. Evoker made sense because there was a "need" for not only a dragon class, but the simple fact that you couldn't be Alexstraza, Wrathion, or similar characters, and those characters were extremely popular. The same happened with Demon Hunters and Illidan. While Warlocks allowed Metamorphosis, a Warlock with demonic wings was not Illidan, and players wanted to be like Illidan. You can say the same thing with Chen Stormstout and Arthas.

    Part of the reason the Tinker concept is so strong as a concept is because the same thing is at work; I can't be Gazlowe or Mekkatorque, so there is a need for a class that allows me to do so.

    Which is why HotS and WC3 are so important; Blizzard allows you to play as those characters in that controlled format, and that helps formulate the need for those characters to appear in WoW in playable form as classes. Most people get that, because many of them had similar desires when they rolled their first WoW class.

    I think the issue we're having with a void class is who are you trying to "be" exactly? I think once we figure that out, then you can structure I solid class concept around it.

  10. #10090
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Are there any particular abilities from Sarkareth that you feel wouldn't fit in the Shadow Priest class or its talents? I could see stuff like Astral Formation, Cosmic Ascension, and Void Bomb in the Spreist class pretty easily.
    All of them. Spriest isn't cosmic. Or at least it isn't supposed to be. You wouldn't say "Dark Ranger exists therefor Hunters are undead gremlins now"

  11. #10091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    These spells are rather bursty and does not fit overall design of a shadow spec, which is about DoT management and channeled spells. Since start of DF, Blizzard nerfed shadow priest's Burst several times already, so it is clearly not part of vision they have for the spec.

    New class have liberty of iterating cosmic void in a more bursty design.
    You don't feel that Void Blast is bursty?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    All of them. Spriest isn't cosmic. Or at least it isn't supposed to be. You wouldn't say "Dark Ranger exists therefor Hunters are undead gremlins now"
    I would say that since Dark Ranger is in the Hunter class as a heroic talent tree, anything related to Dark Rangers would very likely go into that talent tree.

  12. #10092
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You don't feel that Void Blast is bursty?
    A bit, yes. It was also nerfed so many times that it does not hit as hard as it used to. It is not that heavy hitting, plus for shadow, it is also available for few seconds after every Void Torrent and it is also limited by charges in that window. It is decent burst and it provides shadow priests different playstyle, which is, again, fine within a scope of hero talent. General shadow design is not about burst, though. Also if you chose Archon, you completely miss it and your shadow priest lack any cosmic void.

  13. #10093
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, but I’m talking about Shadow Priest in its current iteration. There’s a lot of Old God stuff in it, so it using insanity as a resource isn’t far fetched
    It’s as simple as There being many people who were playing it before the current iteration who don’t like the change in themeing it got in legion.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #10094
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It’s as simple as There being many people who were playing it before the current iteration who don’t like the change in themeing it got in legion.
    Imho, I always thought that theme of Old Gods and aberration fitted more to warlocks. Sure, Warcraft warlocks are about demons, but I would not have a problem if there were glyphs or some other option to summon aberration fitted them more, somehow. I guess it is because warlocks are defined by tapping into dangerous, corruptive and forbidden dark magic in pursuit of power, so asking Old Gods for power instead of Legion is not that far-fetched. Plus it would explain what exactly are shadow spells on warlocks anyway.

    Perhaps I am just too afflicted by DnD, though, where you have option to be both Fiend or Great Old One warlock.

  15. #10095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    A bit, yes. It was also nerfed so many times that it does not hit as hard as it used to. It is not that heavy hitting, plus for shadow, it is also available for few seconds after every Void Torrent and it is also limited by charges in that window. It is decent burst and it provides shadow priests different playstyle, which is, again, fine within a scope of hero talent. General shadow design is not about burst, though. Also if you chose Archon, you completely miss it and your shadow priest lack any cosmic void.
    Fair, but back to my original point; Some of those Sarkareth abilities fit in just fine with Shadow Priest and Voidweaver when it inevitably gets expanded next expansion. I'm pretty sure Priests used to have an ability called Void Bomb, so there's that. I could see Entropic Rift summon asteroids through it that would cause Astral Formation and Astral Eruption. I could also see Cosmic Ascension, Dread, and Void Might be standard Spriest talents.

    Because of that, I could very easily see the cosmic void concept get "Dark Rangered" into Voidweaver.

    Some of the other stuff like Abyssal Breath, Void Claws, and Desolate Blossom would obviously go to Evokers if the class ever stepped into a more void-based concept. Perhaps an alternative if Augmentation ever gets redesigned?

    I'm currently going through Ky'veza's abilities to see what Blizzard has in terms of void melee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It’s as simple as There being many people who were playing it before the current iteration who don’t like the change in themeing it got in legion.
    Okay, but that's a completely different topic from what I was talking about.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2025-01-07 at 02:18 PM.

  16. #10096
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Fair, but back to my original point; Some of those Sarkareth abilities fit in just fine with Shadow Priest and Voidweaver when it inevitably gets expanded next expansion. I'm pretty sure Priests used to have an ability called Void Bomb, so there's that. I could see Entropic Rift summon asteroids through it that would cause Astral Formation and Astral Eruption. I could also see Cosmic Ascension, Dread, and Void Might be a standard Spriest talents.

    Because of that, I could very easily see the cosmic void concept get "Dark Rangered" into Voidweaver.

    Some of the other stuff like Abyssal Breath, Void Claws, and Desolate Blossom would obviously go to Evokers if the class ever stepped into a more void-based concept.
    Shadow priests had ability called Mind Bomb and it was AoE stun, not a damaging spell.

    The problem with Voidweaver as sole representant of cosmic void is that it can be completely skipped if you chose another talent option. If shadow priests are meant to fully represent cosmic void, it would be hardwired into their spec tree or even class tree. It is like if you would be able to play fire mage without fire magic involved.

    What shadow Priest represents at the moment is mostly Old God theming, with several other vaguely connected concepts, like summoning apparitins, spreading plague, ushering words of Death, invoking halos of pure shadow energy and as of late, two cosmic abilities in a form of Entropic Rift/Void Blast, which are altering your gameplay, but still does not make majority of your damage.

    Saying that Voidweaver fully covers cosmic void fantasy is like saying that hunters fully covers tinkers, because they can throw bombs, explosive shots and traps, use guns and have mechanical pets.

    In both cases, existence of one does not limit potential of new class fully dedicated to that theme.

  17. #10097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post

    Saying that Voidweaver fully covers cosmic void fantasy is like saying that hunters fully covers tinkers, because they can throw bombs, explosive shots and traps, use guns and have mechanical pets.

    In both cases, existence of one does not limit potential of new class fully dedicated to that theme.
    Well here's the difference; Hunters can't make my Goblin like Gazlowe or Mekkatorque fighting in a mech suit. That fantasy is simply unachievable in the Hunter class.

    What hero is Shadow Priest preventing your character from emulating? What fantasy are you trying to achieve? That's all I'm asking here.

  18. #10098
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well here's the difference; Hunters can't make my Goblin like Gazlowe or Mekkatorque fighting in a mech suit. That fantasy is simply unachievable in the Hunter class.

    What hero is Shadow Priest preventing your character from emulating? What fantasy are you trying to achieve? That's all I'm asking here.
    As many people expressed here, core shadow priest design (and also priest class design, because you eventually cast Light/Holy spells too through Desperate Prayer and Flash Heal) interferes with this fantasy. Even though you can create a rift for few seconds, most of your rotation consists of non-cosmic elements, which breaks the fantasy. It is a clash of two very different themes, though they share same origin.

    Gameplay wise, it is also burst damage profile which seem to be dominant for cosmic void, while shadow priest damage profile is focused on careful set-ups of your DoTs and channeling. Two very distant gameplay experiences which one spec can't contain without major design issues.

    Also shadow priests does not allow me to play similar to Alleria or Sarkareth, so the difference is not there and it is very same situation as with hunters, as I said before.
    Last edited by Vaedan; 2025-01-07 at 02:35 PM.

  19. #10099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    As many people expressed here, core shadow priest design (and also priest class design, because you eventually cast Light/Holy spells too through Desperate Prayer and Flash Heal) interferes with this fantasy. Even though you can create a rift for few seconds, most of your rotation consists of non-cosmic elements, which breaks the fantasy. It is a clash of two very different themes, though they share same origin.

    Gameplay wise, it is also burst damage profile which seem to be dominant for cosmic void, while shadow priest damage profile is focused on careful set-ups of your DoTs and channeling. Two very distant gameplay experiences which one spec can't contain without major design issues.
    There’s two problems with this argument;

    1. Preferring burst over DoT is a matter of preference. While you might not like set ups and DoTs, other players do. So we can’t really say that the lack of burst in the class requires an entirely new class.

    2. The gameplay you desire has a very good chance of showing up in Voidweaver in future expansions. You’ve already admitted that the burst potential is in the talent tree, it’s just restricted to Entropic Rift’s 8-11 second window.

    Also shadow priests does not allow me to play similar to Alleria or Sarkareth, so the difference is not there and it is very same situation as with hunters, as I said before.
    Okay, but those are two very different characters. I’ve already explained how Sarkareth’s gameplay can rather easily be incorporated into Voidweaver. Alleria is a different topic entirely.

  20. #10100
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Okay, but that's a completely different topic from what I was talking about.
    Well for many when they say it’s off putting that is the reason why just like Wyrt said
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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