We will probably see a new Class during the Worldsoul Saga

[Enrif]

While it was already discussed, we had a poster here saying that such an option shouldn't count because of "religion" or other such nonsense.

and that is a fair assumption. As wardens could end up being quite connected to elune and her magic, rather then learned magic. Even if it ends up being arcane magic.
So, there are multiple angles to consider. Religion versus Study. In WoW and other media, there are gods of arcane magic (Elune, Titans), but not every arcane magic user is getting their magic from gods, but from study of magic itself. So, a warden could be a arcane spellblade with religious ties. But, as said, wardens are not the only option. Spellbreakers for example lack any religious connection and would fit the learned arcane spellblade theme. And for most people, arcane magic, is the magic of the learned, not the divine, even if there is a divinity of arcane magic.

And i don't think either one is better or worse. But i understand fully well, that people would have rather a learned spellblade, than a religious spellblade, as it fits the theme better.

[Teriz]

and that is a fair assumption. As wardens could end up being quite connected to elune and her magic, rather then learned magic. Even if it ends up being arcane magic.
So, there are multiple angles to consider. Religion versus Study. In WoW and other media, there are gods of arcane magic (Elune, Titans), but not every arcane magic user is getting their magic from gods, but from study of magic itself. So, a warden could be a arcane spellblade with religious ties. But, as said, wardens are not the only option. Spellbreakers for example lack any religious connection and would fit the learned arcane spellblade theme. And for most people, arcane magic, is the magic of the learned, not the divine, even if there is a divinity of arcane magic.

And i don't think either one is better or worse. But i understand fully well, that people would have rather a learned spellblade, than a religious spellblade, as it fits the theme better.

I don't believe such headcanon as "religion vs learned" has much consideration when bringing in new classes.

This is why I asked what are the gameplay implications of this distinction? How would being a "religious" spellblade differ mechanically and gameplay-wise from being a "learned" spellblade?

[Enrif]

I don't believe such headcanon as "religion vs learned" has much consideration when bringing in new classes.

This is why I asked what are the gameplay implications of this distinction? How would being a "religious" spellblade differ mechanically and gameplay-wise from being a "learned" spellblade?

you can believe what ever you want, but there is a reason no one takes you seriously

[Ielenia]

I was merely pointing out to a poster that an option that allows a player to combine melee and magic attacks is hardly absent from the class lineup.

And I already addressed that, when I pointed out that:

They're speaking of thematics, you're speaking about mechanics.

The Saga is about the World Soul sure, but the Midnight expansion revolves around a void invasion,

So it's the void vs the elves (assumption from the whole "uniting the elven tribes") so I don't see how nerubians would fit into that as allies. At best as another antagonistic force, again, but that would feel like a rehash, especially so soon after TWW.

and there are people who desire a new void class.

Void class =/= nerubian class. I'd even go as far as wager that most people who want a void class do not want a "nerubian class". Mostly because sharing themes with nerubians would detract from the focus on the void, and the fact you don't even need to be a nerubian (much less the "ascended nerubian" abominations) to be able to wield void magic. You keep trying to shoehorn "nerubians" into other people's void class desires.

[Teriz]

So it's the void vs the elves (assumption from the whole "uniting the elven tribes") so I don't see how nerubians would fit into that as allies. At best as another antagonistic force, again, but that would feel like a rehash, especially so soon after TWW.

It could be as simple as Ascended Nerubians deciding to turn against Xal'atath and the void and use their knowledge of it to help in a void invasion. Conversely, if we're talking about not using the Ascended, it could just be adventurers who come across Xal'atath's "evolution" methods and use them to achieve more power.

Void class =/= nerubian class. I'd even go as far as wager that most people who want a void class do not want a "nerubian class". Mostly because sharing themes with nerubians would detract from the focus on the void, and the fact you don't even need to be a nerubian (much less the "ascended nerubian" abominations) to be able to wield void magic. You keep trying to shoehorn "nerubians" into other people's void class desires.

I don't believe that such a class would need to be Nerubian exclusive, since the Ascended used alchemy and void magic to transform.

Heck, you might not even need playable Nerubians, which could interestingly make such a class even easier to justify. With that said though, interestingly, Blizzard didn't rule out playable Nerubians in future expansions.

Tank Spec: Crypt Lord/Spider Lord
Caster Spec: Nerubian Sage
Support/DPS: Queen/Broodmother

First cloth tank anyone?

[username993720]

Yes, it is, because the madness caused Deathwing to abandon his projects of creating the "perfect soldier", to focus solely on "breaking Azeroth".

But, that doesn't stop the rest of the flight from doing that. Are you saying he was unwilling to depart knowledge and secrets?

It's not "one occasion", it's a lot of things. But like I told you in our other conversation: if you can't understand the most glaring examples, you're not going to be able to understand the more nuanced examples.

I get it. It was cheesy writing. Everything traced back to that guy. Don't know why they decided to make him the, "allegedly", biggest villain out there.

The minutia of said great deeds, on the other hand, do not.

Algalon or the titans aren't minutia. They're pretty big deals. Saying how much your DPS meter was is.

I didn't ask for a single image from Hearthstone that lacks all context. I asked you to show me excerpts from the canon WoW lore where it happened. With links, mind you. Otherwise I'm going to start ignoring any and all random quotes and random images you post.

"The Mogu Cultists are apparently worshippers of Highkeeper Ra, which is also unusual; while Ra was the original creator of the mogu and was once revered by them, he largely faded into obscurity after he was defeated and imprisoned by Lei Shen. A few months after the release of Saviors of Uldum, the Rajani, a group of mogu serving Ra, debuted in World of Warcraft, suggesting that the Mogu Cultists may be affiliated with them."

.All that seems to be stuff of the past for the dwarves, shortly after their conversion by the Curse of Flesh, a holdover from their edicts from the Watchers during their time as earthen that has faded over time. Nowadays, none of that is reflected in the lore of the game. After all, religion has an effect within a culture, and their expressions and mannerisms reflect that. For example, you see humans saying "Light be with you" and "Light bless you", the tauren saying "walk with the Earth Mother" and "ancestors guide you", draenei saying "open your heart to the light" and "do not lose faith", and night elves saying "Elune light your path" and "goddess watch over you".

That's your own opinion. I gave you canon sources. You didn't.

Meanwhile, dwarves have no lines at all that reflect their supposed faith. NPC or player lines. Even the dwarven monastery, the Hall of Mysteries, is about the Light and studies of the arcane. Even their expressions of surprise don't say anything like "oh my god!", they say stuff like "By me own beard!"

Look at that! Links, lots of links! Stuff you should also be providing!

Did you totally skip the dwarven phrases stuff? (And i did put sources, you just didn't bother to notice).

"Some dwarves use "Gods"[124] or "By the gods"[122][125] as exclamations."

No, we don't. Do not conflate "I want" with "we need". Those two terms are not even remotely the same.

If there's gonna be a titan expansion, expect titan content.

Quite the leap of logic to assume I'm saying the titans will be "merely punching bags" in the last expansion of this saga. One would almost say it's quite the... strawman.

Then, how do you think they'll feature in TLT? I want a detailed description.

There's a huge difference between "fleshing them out" and "retconing existing lore", but I don't expect you to know the difference considering out previous conversations.

Retconning?
What retcons?
Are retcons only the things you don't like? Because you seem intent on bringing up very specific cases but totally skip over others which do not bother you.

[Ielenia]

But, that doesn't stop the rest of the flight from doing that. Are you saying he was unwilling to depart knowledge and secrets?

That is the conclusion the current and past evidence is leading us to, yes.

<snip>

I already told you: one, link your sources and two, STOP USING HEARTHSTONE AS WOW CANON!

That's your own opinion. I gave you canon sources. You didn't.

"You didn't", he says, quoting an entire paragraph of canon sources with links.

Did you totally skip the dwarven phrases stuff? (And i did put sources, you just didn't bother to notice).

"Some dwarves use "Gods"[124] or "By the gods"[122][125] as exclamations."

Oh look, more unsourced stuff. Not even gonna bother looking for your stuff anymore. Next?

Also, saying "it's in this book" is not really a worthwhile source because not everyone has the WoW books. In fact, I'd wager a lot less than half of the people here has the books. Link your sources to a publicly accessible source such as the official WoW page, or the Wiki.

If there's gonna be a titan expansion, expect titan content.

It doesn't change what I said: do not conflate "I want" with "we need". Those two terms are not even remotely the same.

Then, how do you think they'll feature in TLT? I want a detailed description.

Hah. How cute, acting as if I owe you anything. All I did was point out you made a strawman of my position, which you did by the way. That in no way, shape or form requires me to make "detailed descriptions of what I think will feature in TLT for the titans".

Retconning?
What retcons?
Are retcons only the things you don't like? Because you seem intent on bringing up very specific cases but totally skip over others which do not bother you.

I'm not you. I recognize retcons for what they are, and I know "retcon" is not a synonym for "bad storytelling". And as for me "bringing up specific cases but skipping others":

You do know that, when I give you an example, it doesn't mean it's the only example, right? Who am I kidding, of course you don't know that, considering our conversation in another thread.

It's not "one occasion", it's a lot of things. But like I told you in our other conversation: if you can't understand the most glaring example, you're not going to be able to understand the more nuanced examples.

There's a huge difference between "fleshing them out" and "retconing existing lore", but I don't expect you to know the difference considering out previous conversations.

"Previous conversations" being a different thread. We already established your inability and/or unwillingness to understand the situation here, but I'll repeat: if you can't grasp the more glaring examples, bringing more nuanced instances into this won't do anything.

- - - Updated - - -

It could be as simple as Ascended Nerubians deciding to turn against Xal'atath

The "ascended" nerubians are loyal to their fallen queen who was loyal Xal'atath. The "ascended" nerubians are also viewed as abominations by the rest of the nerubians. The "ascended" nerubians are an actual downgrade from your average nerubian since they lack nerubian features, such as the ability to communicate through pheromones.

They're not going to suddenly become "the good guys".

and the void and use their knowledge of it to help in a void invasion.

They have no knowledge of the void that other races don't already have. They have nothing to contribute. Hell, just Alleria alone has more knowledge about the void than the "ascended" nerubians, from what we've seen.

Conversely, if we're talking about not using the Ascended, it could just be adventurers who come across Xal'atath's "evolution" methods and use them to achieve more power.

So a rehash of void elves?

I don't believe that such a class would need to be Nerubian exclusive

I also never said it would be "nerubian exclusive", and nothing in my post implies that.

Heck, you might not even need playable Nerubians, which could interestingly make such a class even easier to justify.

Actually it would make the class even harder to justify. After all, how and why would your average human decide to become a huge spider and have spider powers, and where would they fit in the fight against the void?

[Triceron]

Like Sylvanas. Xal'atath, literally, looks like a repeat of Sylvanas\Azshara. She even has the same relationship with Gallywix, an almost 1:1 plot point. TWW, to me, looks like a repeat of BfA mixed with some Shadowlands aesthetics.

Yeah but you're only basing that on what? Cinematics?

We're not getting the full picture when we're in act 1 of a 3 act story. Hard to justify you dismissing it as a repeat when you haven't gotten the full picture. You haven't even played TWW.

On the other hand, Garrosh was awesome.

I liked him better in Wrath and Cata,before they turned him into a one dimensional megalomaniac hellbent on world domination.

[Teriz]

The "ascended" nerubians are loyal to their fallen queen who was loyal Xal'atath. The "ascended" nerubians are also viewed as abominations by the rest of the nerubians. The "ascended" nerubians are an actual downgrade from your average nerubian since they lack nerubian features, such as the ability to communicate through pheromones.

They're not going to suddenly become "the good guys".

It happened with the Zandalari and the Undead. There's a history in WoW of "bad guys" becoming "good guys".

They have no knowledge of the void that other races don't already have. They have nothing to contribute. Hell, just Alleria alone has more knowledge about the void than the "ascended" nerubians, from what we've seen.

So every race was magically manipulated by Xal'atath and can utilize Alchemy and Void magic to make themselves "evolve" into new forms?

Actually it would make the class even harder to justify. After all, how and why would your average human decide to become a huge spider and have spider powers, and where would they fit in the fight against the void?

Again, we have a long history of people seeking out the void to empower themselves. This would simply be another pathway that people would exploit to achieve more power. In a fight against the void, such individuals would be useful since they understand the force they're fighting against.

[Wyrt]

and that is a fair assumption. As wardens could end up being quite connected to elune and her magic, rather then learned magic. Even if it ends up being arcane magic.
So, there are multiple angles to consider. Religion versus Study. In WoW and other media, there are gods of arcane magic (Elune, Titans), but not every arcane magic user is getting their magic from gods, but from study of magic itself. So, a warden could be a arcane spellblade with religious ties. But, as said, wardens are not the only option. Spellbreakers for example lack any religious connection and would fit the learned arcane spellblade theme. And for most people, arcane magic, is the magic of the learned, not the divine, even if there is a divinity of arcane magic.

And i don't think either one is better or worse. But i understand fully well, that people would have rather a learned spellblade, than a religious spellblade, as it fits the theme better.

If people want a religious warrior melee class we have paladins, shamans, monks, druids, and sentinel hunters.

That niche is more than covered.

[Triceron]

If people want a religious warrior melee class we have paladins, shamans, monks, druids, and sentinel hunters.

That niche is more than covered.

But nuance is a key part of that niche. There isn't just one religion.

[Wyrt]

But nuance is a key part of that niche. There isn't just one religion.

Sure, but there's a big difference between Jaina who's always ready to throw down because she's learned to master her magic and Thrall who has elemental dysfunction constantly or Anduin who lost the Light because he was sad or Tyrande who was going to die because she couldn't control the powers of Elune.

Being able to master your magic on your own vs. being reliant on someone else to grant you powers.

[Triceron]

Sure, but there's a big difference between Jaina who's always ready to throw down because she's learned to master her magic and Thrall who has elemental dysfunction constantly or Anduin who lost the Light because he was sad or Tyrande who was going to die because she couldn't control the powers of Elune.

Being able to master your magic on your own vs. being reliant on someone else to grant you powers.

Those are all just story things though. Getting cut off from Arcane also leads to addiction and withdrawal, which has been explored in many other arcane users, just not Jaina. The entire existence of Blood Elves in WoW is owed to their arcane addiction and in seeking new power sources.

Religious powers are still as much learned and trained as any Mage. What needs to be trained is focus, control and discipline.

All magical powers are 'borrowed', unless we're talking about Dracthyr Evokers who are born with it. The only real difference is theme.

[Teriz]

If people want a religious warrior melee class we have paladins, shamans, monks, druids, and sentinel hunters.

That niche is more than covered.

Would people really care about Wardens being devout followers of Elune if the class is delivering the Arcane/Shadow gameplay that people are seeking?

I mean look how cool they look;

[Ielenia]

It happened with the Zandalari and the Undead. There's a history in WoW of "bad guys" becoming "good guys".

It's not really comparable, though. The Zandalari and the Forsaken are a large group of people, a civilization even. And meanwhile the devolved nerubians are just a small group who can't even create more of themselves, since we killed the only one who knows how to do it outside of Xal'atath herself. On top of that, ascended nerubians are also said to act distant and elitist after their evolution, even to their former friends and family, having mutated beyond empathy or community.

So every race was magically manipulated by Xal'atath and can utilize Alchemy and Void magic to make themselves "evolve" into new forms?

"Being manipulated by Xal'atath" is a red herring, as you don't need to be manipulated by her to use void magic or alchemy. We have the void elves already studying the void for quite some time now, and we don't need to "devolve" into any kind of humanoid/insectoid hybrid abomination to fight the void.

Again, we have a long history of people seeking out the void to empower themselves.

Yeah, and 99% of them don't involve requiring to transform into some kind of humanoid/insectoid hybrid abomination.

In a fight against the void, such individuals would be useful since they understand the force they're fighting against.

Thank goodness we have the void elves who have been studying the void for quite some time under the tutelage of Alleria and the Locus-Walker.

[username993720]

That is the conclusion the current and past evidence is leading us to, yes.

Unlikely. There is no reason for him to go against his flight.

I already told you: one, link your sources and two, STOP USING HEARTHSTONE AS WOW CANON!

Hearthstone made it into WoW in the form of the Rajani.

"You didn't", he says, quoting an entire paragraph of canon sources with links.

Your linked sources had nothing to do with your opinion about the estimated time you think they did admire the titans. You posted sayings. I'm talking about your claim that it was, supposedly, in old times, just as they had transitioned to mortal beings and that this tradition didn't survive to current days. For which, you don't have any backup.

Oh look, more unsourced stuff. Not even gonna bother looking for your stuff anymore. Next?

Also, saying "it's in this book" is not really a worthwhile source because not everyone has the WoW books. In fact, I'd wager a lot less than half of the people here has the books. Link your sources to a publicly accessible source such as the official WoW page, or the Wiki.

Wikis don't have entire books within them. The sources i give are the ones the wiki provides.

It doesn't change what I said: do not conflate "I want" with "we need". Those two terms are not even remotely the same.

Your vision of a titan expansion is lacking, in my view.

Hah. How cute, acting as if I owe you anything. All I did was point out you made a strawman of my position, which you did by the way. That in no way, shape or form requires me to make "detailed descriptions of what I think will feature in TLT for the titans".

As usual, putting little to no effort.

I'm not you. I recognize retcons for what they are, and I know "retcon" is not a synonym for "bad storytelling". And as for me "bringing up specific cases but skipping others":


"Previous conversations" being a different thread. We already established your inability and/or unwillingness to understand the situation here, but I'll repeat: if you can't grasp the more glaring examples, bringing more nuanced instances into this won't do anything.

So, how come everything i suggest is a bad retcon? You seem very biased. What is a good retcon, in your eyes?

Yeah but you're only basing that on what? Cinematics?

We're not getting the full picture when we're in act 1 of a 3 act story. Hard to justify you dismissing it as a repeat when you haven't gotten the full picture. You haven't even played TWW.

An arrogant female elf-like being, craving the blood of something to weaponize it through goblins. She was as interesting as a shoe the moment she was introduced.

I liked him better in Wrath and Cata,before they turned him into a one dimensional megalomaniac hellbent on world domination.

He was entertaining through and through.
Let's be honest. Orcs never had much honor, except for the Frostwolves maybe. The guy was a hothead from the start. Putting him in a position of power would only result in one outcome, like it would for someone in real life.

[Wyrt]

Would people really care about Wardens being devout followers of Elune if the class is delivering the Arcane/Shadow gameplay that people are seeking?

But it wouldn't at all.

- - - Updated - - -

.

Religious powers are still as much learned and trained as any Mage. What needs to be trained is focus, control and discipline.

No it's not. Anduin is the most powerful Light wielder because the Light chose him, not because he's studied it extensively or anything.

[alex wolf]

Tbh we could easily get a spell blade class that draws inspiration from spell breakers, wardens and nightborn spell fencers

Presumably three specs, one uses 1h + off hand, one is 1h + shield and one is just a one handed weapon and empty off hand or something

Then having the hero trees being warden/spell breaker/ (something connected to the night well boss)


I do think looking at the types of forces used by existing classes could be a good idea to think about what sorts of thematic ties which has had me thinking more about a witch class tbh

Life/death/void magic are the least represented player powers by my count; being only tied to druids, death knights, and priest respectively.

And a witch class could easily incorporate life and death magic and also tie into the themes of midnight if we do learn more about the haranir and trolls and potential elf connections and then having a witch class that involves stuff from witch doctors to drust to occult studying elves invoking elunes powers.

There's a lot of potential game play directions as well, I could easily see a healer with a stance mechanic similar to old holy priest chakras but instead having a life and death stance, with life being focused on powerful mana intensive healing and death focuses on curses and enemy debuffs and stuff

Or an alchemist spec potentially as a support using some similar mechanics to brans potions maybe

Id also personally really like a star witch spec to go along with the magical girl witch theming

I would definitely also imagine having a witch doctor as a hero talent

[Ielenia]

Unlikely. There is no reason for him to go against his flight.

Strawman. I never said anything about Deathwing going against his own flight.

Hearthstone made it into WoW in the form of the Rajani.

One: that doesn't mean Hearthstone is a valid source of canon lore for WoW. And two: no, the HS card did not become the Rajani.

Your linked sources had nothing to do with your opinion about the estimated time you think they did admire the titans.

I never said that. I pointed out that dwarves don't have a religion of worshipping titans nowadays, and the voice lines from both NPCs and player dwarves are an indication of that, since races that do have religions and worship deities (humans, tauren, draenei, etc) have lines in their dialogues that reflect their faith.

Also, we're going back to your insistence on changing the meaning of words. To "admire" something or someone doesn't mean you "worship" said something or someone.

Wikis don't have entire books within them. The sources i give are the ones the wiki provides.

Except I trust a sourced quote from the Wiki much more than I trust you, since not only you like to play fast and loose with the meaning of words, but you've also gone on record to affirm that you refuse to agree with me on principle:

If i'd agree with them, then i'm agreeing with you.

Your vision of a titan expansion is lacking, in my view.

As usual, putting little to no effort.

Your strawman is lacking (as usual) considering I didn't put forth any "vision" for a titan expansion at all in that part of our conversation, nor am I required to give you one. We don't need to have a "vision for the expansion" to be able to criticize yours. All we need is critical thinking.

So, how come everything i suggest is a bad retcon?

Because you don't care how your retcons mess with the continuity and established lore. Not that I expect you to understand this considering we discussed that here and in the previous thread where I explained things to you several times over and you never seemed to grasp it. Whether through inability or unwillingness, that's up for individual interpretation.

You seem very biased. What is a good retcon, in your eyes?

The draenei.

- - - Updated - - -

No it's not. Anduin is the most powerful Light wielder because the Light chose him, not because he's studied it extensively or anything.

You do know that Anduin spent his childhood studying the Light, right? He studied under Archbishop Benedictus, under Velen, and even under Chi-Ji.

[Eldryth]

Personally, I would love the kind of magical Warden that's been talked about lately too. I don't think it could work as a substitute for Spellblade though, or vice versa- the fantasies behind them are just too different, to the point where I can't even see them as overlapping fantasies at all. When I picture Wardens, I expect glaive tricks (and other tricky stuff with their blade cloaks), plate armor, shadowy spirits, Elune's moonlight, and stuff centered around justice and imprisoning enemies.

For Spellblades, on the other hand... they vary a lot in different settings, and WoW's version is still vague, but the first thing that always comes to mind would be a fencer/duelist, wearing cloth armor (coat/tunic and pants rather than the robes that casters usually get), and mixing in arcane spells with agile swordplay. Ideally with one sword (and I guess an offhand), but some of WoW's examples use shields. Basically, just look at FFXIV's Red Mage- it had one of the best examples I've seen of this archetype imo. And, though I can't say I'm optimistic about it coming, I'd absolutely love it if it does (with a playstyle I enjoy)- Red Mage was my favorite fantasy by far in FFXIV.


I could even think of a few ways they could work mechanically (and I'm not exactly creative for stuff like this, I'm sure the devs can come up with a lot more). FFXIV's Red Mage had separate spell and melee phases, where you'd build up resources with slow, weak spells, jump in for a melee combo, which leads into a quick, powerful spell combo. But builder/spender stuff is common in WoW already, and it'd probably be better to come up with their own take on the archetype.

Or they could look at Aluriel, who placed and detonated different kinds of marks on the players. They could have you use melee attacks to place marks, and detonate them with spells. Granted, that would have some overlap with Shaman (spells that spread to everything with Flame Shock on), but they could easily differentiate it by doubling down on that aspect- give them multiple kinds of stacking marks, with different effects, that are detonated by different spells. Maybe you could spread a kind of flame mark in AoE situations to make all enemies explode and hurt each other, or build up a stacking arcane mark for single target situations.

Could even give them spells with a long cast time, but let you use melee abilities while casting to emphasize how you're doing both at once. Could mix well with the last paragraph imo- detonators would be a long, slow spell, but you can keep attacking while casting them.


Also, about Wardens- the takes we tend to see here are great. And you can't truly deliver on that fantasy without the magics they're typically associated with. But I'm also worried that, if the survey from a while back is actually real (I'm not 100% convinced either way, but most people seem to accept it, plus it got the obscure Artificer so right and the Bard option referenced lore that hadn't hit live servers yet)... then the Warden they're asking about completely misses the mark. Chakrams are a part of the fantasy, sure, but without all the magic that they're associated with, it'd just be a massive disappointment. I'd like Wardens, but not a gutted imitation like that.