We will probably see a new Class during the Worldsoul Saga

[Triceron]

Thrall did not become a knight of the silver hand and the Lightbound Orcs aren't part of the Horde.

Nothing would change if they were.

We already have Orc Priests who use the light, do you consider Orc culture already gone?

Actually, this kind of tech is part of the identity of the Iron Horde Mag'har that became playable. Without it, they're just Outland Mag'har.

And we establish that you understand that cultures can evolve, adapt and change.

So what is this really about? Culture, or your own personal bias that Orcs would lose culture because of X but not Y? It seems to come down to "I don't like it because that's not what I think they should do" which is fine if you were being honest about an opinion, rather than making excuses like Orcs would lose their culture over it.

Well, Orcs have Warlocks, which are similar to Mages.

And all Mages are ordered under Dalaran. This includes the Player Orc Mage. Do you consider Orc culture lost because of this?

Well, Tidesages believe in a deity called the Tidemother. So, they are kind of spiritual (plus, they look like priests).

If we establish that any race with Priests can be spiritual, then any race can also be a Shaman through similar means of spirituality. What is the difference really? Tidesages aren't tribal or shamanistic by nature. If you're able to forgoe that by saying they're 'kinda' spiritual, then why draw the line with regular Humans who also have both connections to Spiritual faith (Priests) and Elemental powers (Mages)? Humans can choose to believe in other deities too. We have examples of Humans who worshipped the Lich King (Cult of the Damned), Humans who worship Loa (Kurzen's headhunters), Humans who worshipped the Legion, Humans who worship nature (Gilnean Harvest Witches) and plenty more examples of non-light believers of other faiths. Hell, even from a non-lore point of view, we have Human Hunters who can use Elune's magic.

Humans simply could simply use some new lore that supports a connection to Shamanism. They've been exposed to other races within the Alliance who already had that connection, for over two decades now. It's not a matter of whether it is already in their culture or not, it's a matter of how Blizzard chooses to make sense of it. Monks are already one step away from being Shamans, and practically every race can be a Monk. Such things can be learned.

[username993720]

time has changed but it hasn’t made them tribal or feral as shown by cata where they are effectively just bronzebeards who live under an open sky with a focus on gryphons instead of rams.

They are just bronzebeards? I guess that would explain them being a customization option. But, i don't think they are culturally the same. Do they have the same focus on blacksmithing or love of archaeology\treasure? Do they drink as much? Are they as heavily armored as the bronzebeards?

Moria specifically. You can read the story your self here. https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com...-fire-and-iron

She spreads rumours of the wildhammers being savages who feeds there enemies to there gryphons, slay allied forces for not being as wild as them in battle and unable to conform to the civilized life in iron forge. Kurdran calls out specifically that it all sounds like the same bullshit that was spread about them around the time of the war of Three hammers.

"Baseless rumors targeting the Wildhammer clan had emerged from the city’s shadowy halls like vengeful ghosts from the bloody War of the Three Hammers that had shattered the unity of the dwarf clans so many years ago. They ranged from stories of ritual sacrifice performed in Aerie Peak to tales that Kurdran had executed a dozen other Alliance fighters on Outland for retreating from battle."

You mean this?
This is not not remotely what i mean when i say they are wild. No one said they are monstrous.

I honestly cannot be more clear than saying "stop using real-life definitions".

Yet, WoW takes inspiration from real-life definitions, like faith and belief.

False. Both also deal with dark magics.

What is this dark magic?

Says the guy who wants to restrict this class to just alchemy. What I'm doing is literally broadening the archetypes, and you're fighting tooth and nail against it.

No. On the contrary.
I don't want it to represent every and all alchemists. There can be a witch class, which deals with magic and some alchemy, and an alchemist class, which deals purely with alchemy. For example, the rogue class's poisons don't take away the option for other alchemical classes.

You don't get it, do you? You don't have to specifically designate it to one or the other. I'll repost, again, what I wrote before:

So, science and primitive superstitions together within the same class? Why does alchemy need to be supplemented by magic? It's like claiming tinkers need magic.

That's your problem, not mine.

That's a lazy reasoning, which doesn't enrich the lore.

What "purpose"? A specific member of a race doesn't need a "grand purpose" or any "lore justification" to learn a specific set of skills that, lore-wise, anyone can learn. All they need is "I want to do it".

But, it's not just you, is it? It's an entire race.
Come up with something better than copying other races.

Big useless sentence. That in no way, shape or form indicates the wildhammers are "tribal" or "feral". Humans have their grand cathedral in Stormwind, but that doesn't make humans "tribal" or "feral".

*facepalm*

The wildhammers spirituality comes from shamanism, not the Holy Light.

Except I already gave you lore reasons that would actually prevent that nonsense "reductio ad absurdum" you made.

Like you gave lore reasons for gnome witches?

Which, once again, has nothing to do with the claim of them being "tribal" or "feral".

What are shamans, lelenia?

You refusing to admit the answers doesn't mean they don't exist.

Those are not answers. Those are claims. You never back them up.

All the links to my claims and explanations are right there in your "quotes" tab, which I know you've read because you've responded to them already.

There are none. Otherwise, i would have referred to them. For example, you claim WC2 Wildhammer lore has been retconned. Please provide the information for that.

No, "tribal" and "feral" are not necessary aspects of shamanism, much less "unique".

Shamans are tribal medicine men or spiritual mediators.

Not the real-life definitions of those terms, no. Because beliefs and faith in the real world are based around entities that have never been conclusively shown to interact with the world, while in Warcraft those entities not only actually exist, they have communed with the mortals plenty of times and even exerted their will and power onto the mortal realm a plethora of times.

And that is as far as I'll go with this discussion of beliefs as it's getting too close to actual religioustalk.

So, i ask again for the thousandth time: why are there beliefs and faiths in azeroth if everything is tangible? Please, stop avoiding the question and answer it straightforward.

Nothing would change if they were.

We already have Orc Priests who use the light, do you consider Orc culture already gone?

They use a song. This is a silly lore for orc priests. Just say Oshu'gun was a holy place for the orcs and that the spirits there are their connection to the light.

And we establish that you understand that cultures can evolve, adapt and change.

So what is this really about? Culture, or your own personal bias that Orcs would lose culture because of X but not Y? It seems to come down to "I don't like it because that's not what I think they should do" which is fine if you were being honest about an opinion, rather than making excuses like Orcs would lose their culture over it.

They would have been too close to green orcs without it. It gave them a twist.

Anyway, i'm not against race\class combinations if you provide ample lore for it and not just "well, one chose to" or "someone copied others". That's boring.

For example, i could see gnome shamans or druids. Lightning is a thematic of robots and tech. Explosives emit fire. Metal is purified earth. Steam is pressurized water. Ancestral spirits could be holograms of the deceased. Botany, zoology and astronomy are scientific fields of nature.

Now, please provide me with an explanation for gnome witches. Because i see a witch class like this:


And not like another form of mages.

And all Mages are ordered under Dalaran. This includes the Player Orc Mage. Do you consider Orc culture lost because of this?

What?
Do you refer to the Legion class hall?
Yes, they were a bit too generalized.

If we establish that any race with Priests can be spiritual, then any race can also be a Shaman through similar means of spirituality. What is the difference really? Tidesages aren't tribal or shamanistic by nature. If you're able to forgoe that by saying they're 'kinda' spiritual, then why draw the line with regular Humans who also have both connections to Spiritual faith (Priests) and Elemental powers (Mages)? Humans can choose to believe in other deities too. We have examples of Humans who worshipped the Lich King (Cult of the Damned), Humans who worship Loa (Kurzen's headhunters), Humans who worshipped the Legion, Humans who worship nature (Gilnean Harvest Witches) and plenty more examples of non-light believers of other faiths. Hell, even from a non-lore point of view, we have Human Hunters who can use Elune's magic.

Humans simply could simply use some new lore that supports a connection to Shamanism. They've been exposed to other races within the Alliance who already had that connection, for over two decades now. It's not a matter of whether it is already in their culture or not, it's a matter of how Blizzard chooses to make sense of it. Monks are already one step away from being Shamans, and practically every race can be a Monk. Such things can be learned.

Depends on the human, doesn't it? Harvest-witches are gilneans, and the reason for gilnean druids. Tidesages are the reason for Kul Tiran shamans, while thornspeakers are the reason for their druids.

Do you ask me about stormwind humans? The only reasoning for shamans i can give them is one hairstyle called "barbarian":

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They are just bronzebeards? I guess that would explain them being a customization option. But, i don't think they are culturally the same. Do they have the same focus on blacksmithing or love of archaeology\treasure? Do they drink as much? Are they as heavily armored as the bronzebeards?

Yes they have a focus on blacksmithing the core of Grim batol is a giant forge just like IF and there new main town in the highlands is built with a forge as it's biggest buidling. Yes they drink as much abunch of quest in the TH are about getting beer.

The amount of armor they wear is hit and miss, some are just as armored as dwarfs from IF, some aren't.

archaeology is the only real thing they don't share with the IF dwarfs, but even then that was a recent shift in there culture under Magni not some long standing thing.

You mean this?
This is not not remotely what I mean when I say they are wild. No one said they are monstrous.

That's one example in the story ya, later on it flat out calls them "non conformist" as if they couldn't fit the IF life style which his untrue.

The whole thing is Moria trying to paly up there "wildness" just like what happened during the war of three hammers when really they are more like bronzebeards then they are different.

[Ielenia]

What is this dark magic?

Probably necromancy.

I don't want it to represent every and all alchemists.

Nobody but you said that a witch class that uses alchemy and dark magics would "represent all alchemists". That's a strawman.

So, science and primitive superstitions together within the same class?

Neither science nor superstitions. Arguing with you is like arguing with a wall with how you keep doubling- and tripling-down on your wrong definitions.

That's a lazy reasoning, which doesn't enrich the lore.

It's not "lazy reasoning". It's the truth. Your unwillingness or inability to accept the lore for what it is, instead clinging to lore from Warcraft 2 as if it's still canon lore, despite the game itself showing it's no longer canon, that is "lazy reasoning".

But, it's not just you, is it? It's an entire race.

False. The tauren race did not stop being a shamanistic race and did not become a Light-worshipping race when Blizzard allowed them to become priests and paladins. The blood elf race did not stop being a magically-inclined race when Blizzard allowed them to be warriors in the Cataclysm expansion. And so on and so forth.

The wildhammers spirituality comes from shamanism, not the Holy Light.

Which, once again, has nothing to do with the claim of them being "tribal" or "feral".

Like you gave lore reasons for gnome witches?

I already told you why we don't need lore reasons for gnome witches: we don't need lore that explain why a singular individual decides to pursue a different avenue of power that can as easily be taught to others like wizardry is.

What are shamans, lelenia?

It doesn't matter what shamans are. We're talking about racial culture.

Those are not answers. Those are claims. You never back them up.

I did back them up. I gave you the reasoning for all of that. The problem is that you don't accept anything that goes against your narrow views, such as your wrongful insistence that the Wildhammer dwarves are "feral" and "tribal".

There are none. Otherwise, i would have referred to them. For example, you claim WC2 Wildhammer lore has been retconned. Please provide the information for that.

I already told you: have you played the Cataclysm expansion at all?

Shamans are tribal medicine men or spiritual mediators.

Not the WoW shaman, no. They're not "tribal medicine men" at all.

[Triceron]

Anyway, i'm not against race\class combinations if you provide ample lore for it and not just "well, one chose to" or "someone copied others". That's boring.

Depends on the situation. Mag'har tech differentiating themselves was literally a case of copying Goblin technology, something that Orcs already have access to. There's really little difference between them other than Mag'har choosing to lean in on their warmachines, while Greenskins have broader tradeskills and aren't hyperfocused on beasts or tech as a part of their culture.

For example, i could see gnome shamans or druids. Lightning is a thematic of robots and tech. Explosives emit fire. Metal is purified earth. Steam is pressurized water. Ancestral spirits could be holograms of the deceased. Botany, zoology and astronomy are scientific fields of nature.

Now, please provide me with an explanation for gnome witches. Because i see a witch class like this:

Gnomes have a penchant for compartmentalizing magic and faith into science or pseudo-science. Their connection to Witches would be through the Apothecary/Alchemy route, where they delve deeper into the knowledge of various traditional medicinal and folk lore through the lens of alchemical science. That's how I'd do it.

Hexes and dark spiritual spells are just an abstraction of other types of magic that you're willing to forgoe any explanation for; much like how you figure Gnome Druids can use nature magic just because of a scientific connection, regardless of there being a spec dedicated to moon magic and Elune worship. It needs not be explained, it's just there. Gnomes would want to delve into Witchcraft for the esoteric alchemy and brewing of potions, exploration of life and decay for science, etc. This could also be written into lore for Gnomes who are looking for alternate means of curing the Leper Gnome radiation, researching 'Witchcraft' to learn more about the nature of 'Decay'.

What?
Do you refer to the Legion class hall?
Yes, they were a bit too generalized.

Regardless, do you think their existence as official Dalaran mages completely destroys all Orc culture that exists elsewhere?

If you were arguing that the mere existence of certain race/class combos ruins the culture, but you're okay with Orc Mages merely existing, then maybe we need to rethink this argument don't you think?

Depends on the human, doesn't it? Harvest-witches are gilneans, and the reason for gilnean druids. Tidesages are the reason for Kul Tiran shamans, while thornspeakers are the reason for their druids.

Do you ask me about stormwind humans? The only reasoning for shamans i can give them is one hairstyle called "barbarian":

I ask why you are arguing it being against Stormwind human culture if you fully acknowledge that they could be given new lore to support the new class comboes, like introducing a new sect of Stormwind humans who have decided to listen to the Elements. If they can become Monks and channel the Mists of Pandaria and turn into spirits of Earth, Storm and Fire, it's not a stretch to abstract that further into learning to bond with Elemental spirits.

Hell I could even make up a story about the origins of 'Stormwind' being an ancient legend of a Storm that protected the nation from troll invasion before it became a formal Kingdom. The Human ancestors may have worshipped some ancient Storm gods (remnants of Vrykul protoculture?) as a result, before the faith of the Holy Light came to the Kingdom and rid them all of their 'paganism'. Then the new Shamans are merely Humans who are rekindling this lost part of their history and tapping into the powers of the Elements all the while. This could also be tied to rekindling any ancestral connections to Witchcraft that may have existed prior to the Holy Light, much like with Gilnean Harvest Witches.

Barbarian hairstyles have nothing to do with Shamanism. I don't really see why you brought that up. Hairstyles are cosmestics, what is the connection to Shamanism?

[Boomer Thor]

They should ditch the class system and go for a job system. Get with the times.

[Al Gorefiend]

I will say though, in terms of an apothecary/alchemist, I don't see them being all that linked to a witch.

Frankly I see them meshing more with tinkers. Apothecaries have always had a mad science bent to them in the game, and the go-to race for that, Goblins, are absolutely in that mad science side of things

They're already tied to assassination rogue if we're talking potions and poisons, not that the two can't coexist.
I was more thinking how alchemy can translate into offensive magic. Typical witch stuff like throwing snips, snails & puppy dog tails in a big cauldron and creating spooky stuff, like the trolls around Zul'gurub.

[username993720]

That's one example in the story ya, later on it flat out calls them "non conformist" as if they couldn't fit the IF life style which his untrue.

The whole thing is Moria trying to paly up there "wildness" just like what happened during the war of three hammers when really they are more like bronzebeards then they are different.

That's totally off.
We're not implying they are brutal and savage, mercilessly killing anyone around them.
Just more outdoorsy and, therefore, more wild.

Probably necromancy.

So, you want your necromancer class. That's why. Now i know why you're pushing for it. No, the witch class is not going to be another Death Knight. If you want your necromancer class, pitch for it. Don't try to mask it as something else.

Nobody but you said that a witch class that uses alchemy and dark magics would "represent all alchemists". That's a strawman.

Then, where would other alchemists be represented? You want it to be for all races.

Neither science nor superstitions. Arguing with you is like arguing with a wall with how you keep doubling- and tripling-down on your wrong definitions.

Define alchemy and witchcraft.

It's not "lazy reasoning". It's the truth. Your unwillingness or inability to accept the lore for what it is, instead clinging to lore from Warcraft 2 as if it's still canon lore, despite the game itself showing it's no longer canon, that is "lazy reasoning".

What?
Again, you claim stuff without never backing it up.
Yes, lazy reasoning is not doing much to explain a race\class combination. You might be fine with it. I have higher standards.

False. The tauren race did not stop being a shamanistic race and did not become a Light-worshipping race when Blizzard allowed them to become priests and paladins. The blood elf race did not stop being a magically-inclined race when Blizzard allowed them to be warriors in the Cataclysm expansion. And so on and so forth.

I'm not saying it replaces other things. I'm saying it encompasses more than just you, the player.

Which, once again, has nothing to do with the claim of them being "tribal" or "feral".

Define tribal or feral.

I already told you why we don't need lore reasons for gnome witches: we don't need lore that explain why a singular individual decides to pursue a different avenue of power that can as easily be taught to others like wizardry is.

Once again you're clamoring for the individual. The game doesn't revolve around you. It encompasses entire races. Just because you want to be a certain way, doesn't mean the entire race you play would.

It doesn't matter what shamans are. We're talking about racial culture.

It does, if they're a big part of it.
What is their racial culture?

I did back them up. I gave you the reasoning for all of that. The problem is that you don't accept anything that goes against your narrow views, such as your wrongful insistence that the Wildhammer dwarves are "feral" and "tribal".

I don't need your reasoning. I need a quote and a link. Until your provide those, your claims are hollow.

I already told you: have you played the Cataclysm expansion at all?

Don't ask me. Provide evidence and end it once and for all.

Not the WoW shaman, no. They're not "tribal medicine men" at all.

"the tauren developed a deep knowledge of the botanical life of Azeroth, using it in various shamanistic rituals, as well as for medical treatment."
https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/w..._racial_traits

Depends on the situation. Mag'har tech differentiating themselves was literally a case of copying Goblin technology, something that Orcs already have access to. There's really little difference between them other than Mag'har choosing to lean in on their warmachines, while Greenskins have broader tradeskills and aren't hyperfocused on beasts or tech as a part of their culture.

It's doesn't, exactly, look like goblin tech. It has its own Iron Horde aesthetics.

Gnomes have a penchant for compartmentalizing magic and faith into science or pseudo-science. Their connection to Witches would be through the Apothecary/Alchemy route, where they delve deeper into the knowledge of various traditional medicinal and folk lore through the lens of alchemical science. That's how I'd do it.

Witchcraft isn't just about alchemy.
Would the gnomes be alchemists, otherwise? Of course.

Hexes and dark spiritual spells are just an abstraction of other types of magic that you're willing to forgoe any explanation for; much like how you figure Gnome Druids can use nature magic just because of a scientific connection, regardless of there being a spec dedicated to moon magic and Elune worship.

I did explain it.
Astronomy.

It needs not be explained, it's just there. Gnomes would want to delve into Witchcraft for the esoteric alchemy and brewing of potions, exploration of life and decay for science, etc. This could also be written into lore for Gnomes who are looking for alternate means of curing the Leper Gnome radiation, researching 'Witchcraft' to learn more about the nature of 'Decay'.

Now, that might be a connection.
See? You're getting somewhere. Though, i would attribute it to leper gnomes more than regular gnomes.

Regardless, do you think their existence as official Dalaran mages completely destroys all Orc culture that exists elsewhere?

If you were arguing that the mere existence of certain race/class combos ruins the culture, but you're okay with Orc Mages merely existing, then maybe we need to rethink this argument don't you think?

There's nothing i can do about it, can i?
Everyone got access to the mage class.

I ask why you are arguing it being against Stormwind human culture if you fully acknowledge that they could be given new lore to support the new class comboes, like introducing a new sect of Stormwind humans who have decided to listen to the Elements. If they can become Monks and channel the Mists of Pandaria and turn into spirits of Earth, Storm and Fire, it's not a stretch to abstract that further into learning to bond with Elemental spirits.

I'd rather they come up with a reason that connects to their established lore than arbitrary reasons.

Hell I could even make up a story about the origins of 'Stormwind' being an ancient legend of a Storm that protected the nation from troll invasion before it became a formal Kingdom. The Human ancestors may have worshipped some ancient Storm gods (remnants of Vrykul protoculture?) as a result, before the faith of the Holy Light came to the Kingdom and rid them all of their 'paganism'. Then the new Shamans are merely Humans who are rekindling this lost part of their history and tapping into the powers of the Elements all the while. This could also be tied to rekindling any ancestral connections to Witchcraft that may have existed prior to the Holy Light, much like with Gilnean Harvest Witches.

I'm looking for lore reasoning that makes sense in the context of their race, instead of just "here you go. You can be that because you're an individual and you're special".

Barbarian hairstyles have nothing to do with Shamanism. I don't really see why you brought that up. Hairstyles are cosmestics, what is the connection to Shamanism?

"Barbarians are fierce and primal warriors embodying strength and tribal instincts in battle."

[Mecheon]

They're already tied to assassination rogue if we're talking potions and poisons, not that the two can't coexist.
I was more thinking how alchemy can translate into offensive magic. Typical witch stuff like throwing snips, snails & puppy dog tails in a big cauldron and creating spooky stuff, like the trolls around Zul'gurub.

But the obvious Warcraft alchemists are characters like Putricide or Putress, or the most obvious of the lot, Noggenfogger. They're not using snips, snails and puppy dog tails, they're dragging out plague spreaders or working with more of an engineering bent

Genuinely, the way Warcraft's presented it? I think it fits more with the tinker side than the witch side.

[Triceron]

It's doesn't, exactly, look like goblin tech. It has its own Iron Horde aesthetics.

So this is all about aesthetics? And regardless of that distinction, Mag'har don't have any of their tech reflected in any current racial or class-based gameplay. Even with Engineering, they would be using the same Goblin and Gnome tech available to everyone.

For the sake of argument, who would look at a Mag'har Shaman and an Orc Shaman and say they're culturally different because of technology?

Witchcraft isn't just about alchemy.
Would the gnomes be alchemists, otherwise? Of course.

The closest we have in real life 'psuedoscience' to folk medicine is Naturopathy, which is what Gnome Witches would basically be. Any dark magic or decay magic can again be explained as aspects of research to potentially cure Leper Gnomes. In the pursuit of a cure, they discover the use and power of this dark/decay magic offensively. It can all still be rooted in aspects of science. The Priest was abstracted to surgeons and battle medics without even dealing with Light and Faith, well before they had Gnomes straight up adopt the Holy Light.

Now, that might be a connection.
See? You're getting somewhere. Though, i would attribute it to leper gnomes more than regular gnomes.

Leper Gnomes are regular Gnomes that simply haven't been cured of their radiation sickness, yet. They're in a poor state, they have not become another race.

There's nothing i can do about it, can i?
Everyone got access to the mage class.

I'm asking about your opinion of Orc culture and whether you think this one part of the game completely erases all Orc culture. Because that is exactly the argument you made, that even one 'unacceptable' class combo would completely make the race's culture pointless.

Because I think Orc culture still exists completely and is unaffected by individuals of their race who choose to become Dalaran Mages (or Monks of Pandaren style, followers of the Light or whatever else you don't think fits Orc culture)

I'd rather they come up with a reason that connects to their established lore than arbitrary reasons.

Humans descending from Vrykul and having an ancestral connection to the Watchers/Titans is already established lore.

I'm looking for lore reasoning that makes sense in the context of their race, instead of just "here you go. You can be that because you're an individual and you're special".

And does my explanation not cover exactly what you're looking for?

"Barbarians are fierce and primal warriors embodying strength and tribal instincts in battle."

But Shamans are not Barbarians. Shamans are Shamans.

For example, a Kul Tiran Tidesage represents Shamans, and they are neither barbaric or primal warriors.

[Ielenia]

So, you want your necromancer class.

I'm not going to entertain your dishonest ass in this dumb attempt at taunting, especially since you can't bother to learn proper lore (especially about Wildhammers) and understand themes (witches and witch doctors are closely tied to necromancy).

If I wanted to push for a necromancer class, I would push for a necromancer class. Especially since witches, witch doctors and apothecaries don't fit my personal view of what a necromancer should be.

Then, where would other alchemists be represented?

Not my problem. I envision the witch doctor/apothecary class to represent the witch doctor and apothecary concepts, not Bilbo the Potion Vendor.

You want it to be for all races.

Available to all races =/= represents all races. <-- Learn that.

Define alchemy and witchcraft.

I point out you keep trying to argue semantics about terms, and your response is to argue semantics over other terms?

Again, you claim stuff without never backing it up.

I already told you: have you played the Cataclysm expansion at all?

I'm not saying it replaces other things. I'm saying it encompasses more than just you, the player.

No, it doesn't. The tauren culture as a whole remains completely unaltered despite the addition of tauren priests and paladins. Orc culture is completely unaltered despite the addition of orc monks and orc wizards.

Define tribal or feral.

Everything the Wildhammer are not.

The game doesn't revolve around you.

Not only I never made that claim, but it's also a meaningless statement. The game doesn't revolve around playable races' cultures, either.

It does, if they're a big part of it.

Okay. Prove it that shamanism is a "big part" of Wildhammer culture. Because, from where I'm standing, the "big part" of their culture is how they prefer to live under the skies and raise their gryphons.

I don't need your reasoning. I need a quote and a link. Until your provide those, your claims are hollow.

It's so damn ironic and hypocritical of you to make that claim, considering you never provide links unless I press you against the wall, demanding you to post links.

Don't ask me.

I ask you because you're basically telling us that the sky is colored brown and everyone is telling you to look out the window to see how wrong you are. But, in conclusion, should I assume you have not played the Cataclysm expansion, or ever visited the Twilight Highlands post-Cata? Because if you did, you would not be holding the opinion you have about the Wildhammers.

"the tauren developed a deep knowledge of the botanical life of Azeroth, using it in various shamanistic rituals, as well as for medical treatment."
https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/w..._racial_traits

You linked something that has nothing to do with your original claim. I didn't ask about tauren racials. I talked about your claim that shamans are necessarily tribalistic. Your link at best, says that tauren medicine men happen to be shaman, not the other way around.

[username993720]

But the obvious Warcraft alchemists are characters like Putricide or Putress, or the most obvious of the lot, Noggenfogger. They're not using snips, snails and puppy dog tails, they're dragging out plague spreaders or working with more of an engineering bent

Genuinely, the way Warcraft's presented it? I think it fits more with the tinker side than the witch side.

Just because of this ambiguity, i'm not sure if it should go to one side over the other.

So this is all about aesthetics? And regardless of that distinction, Mag'har don't have any of their tech reflected in any current racial or class-based gameplay. Even with Engineering, they would be using the same Goblin and Gnome tech available to everyone.

For the sake of argument, who would look at a Mag'har Shaman and an Orc Shaman and say they're culturally different because of technology?

Not the player.
But, they did use it during BfA.

The closest we have in real life 'psuedoscience' to folk medicine is Naturopathy, which is what Gnome Witches would basically be. Any dark magic or decay magic can again be explained as aspects of research to potentially cure Leper Gnomes. In the pursuit of a cure, they discover the use and power of this dark/decay magic offensively. It can all still be rooted in aspects of science. The Priest was abstracted to surgeons and battle medics without even dealing with Light and Faith, well before they had Gnomes straight up adopt the Holy Light.

Why pseudoscience when chemistry is science?

Leper Gnomes are regular Gnomes that simply haven't been cured of their radiation sickness, yet. They're in a poor state, they have not become another race.

They're a separate race.
They're part of the Forsaken, also.

"Leper gnomes are a diseased, twisted, violent, and mutated race of gnomes who wander through the irradiated halls of Gnomeregan."

I'm asking about your opinion of Orc culture and whether you think this one part of the game completely erases all Orc culture. Because that is exactly the argument you made, that even one 'unacceptable' class combo would completely make the race's culture pointless.

Because I think Orc culture still exists completely and is unaffected by individuals of their race who choose to become Dalaran Mages (or Monks of Pandaren style, followers of the Light or whatever else you don't think fits Orc culture)

I'm not saying it erases everything.
I'm saying it goes against it.
Dalaran is mainly comprised of humans and elves. You choosing to go there has little effect.

Humans descending from Vrykul and having an ancestral connection to the Watchers/Titans is already established lore.

Night elves are descended from trolls. Should they have Troll culture?

And does my explanation not cover exactly what you're looking for?

With what? Gnomes or humans?
As i've explained, radiated gnomes are leper gnomes, so it fits them more. As for humans, i only found the hairstyle appropriate. Linking something to ancestry doesn't always work.

But Shamans are not Barbarians. Shamans are Shamans.

For example, a Kul Tiran Tidesage represents Shamans, and they are neither barbaric or primal warriors.

Barbarians are, indeed, warriors. But, they are also primal and tribal, which could link to something like lightning and bloodlust.

I'm not going to entertain your dishonest ass in this dumb attempt at taunting, especially since you can't bother to learn proper lore (especially about Wildhammers) and understand themes (witches and witch doctors are closely tied to necromancy).

I know that.
But, we don't want to retread the death knight.

If I wanted to push for a necromancer class, I would push for a necromancer class. Especially since witches, witch doctors and apothecaries don't fit my personal view of what a necromancer should be.

Don't they?
If i remember correctly, your necromancer concept is a lot about plagues and poisons.

Not my problem. I envision the witch doctor/apothecary class to represent the witch doctor and apothecary concepts, not Bilbo the Potion Vendor.

But, you want everyone to be included.

Available to all races =/= represents all races. <-- Learn that.

Then, what's the point of doing that?

I point out you keep trying to argue semantics about terms, and your response is to argue semantics over other terms?

You keep going around instead of being straightforward.

I already told you: have you played the Cataclysm expansion at all?

Have you ever provided quotes and links to your claims? Because i do.

No, it doesn't. The tauren culture as a whole remains completely unaltered despite the addition of tauren priests and paladins. Orc culture is completely unaltered despite the addition of orc monks and orc wizards.

I'm not saying it alters their entire culture. I'm saying it's not made up of just you, the player.

Everything the Wildhammer are not.

See?
You're going in circles instead of answering questions.

Not only I never made that claim, but it's also a meaningless statement. The game doesn't revolve around playable races' cultures, either.

It does. A big part of the lore are racial classes lore.

Okay. Prove it that shamanism is a "big part" of Wildhammer culture. Because, from where I'm standing, the "big part" of their culture is how they prefer to live under the skies and raise their gryphons.

The element of air.

It's so damn ironic and hypocritical of you to make that claim, considering you never provide links unless I press you against the wall, demanding you to post links.

But, i do so in the end. You never do.

I ask you because you're basically telling us that the sky is colored brown and everyone is telling you to look out the window to see how wrong you are. But, in conclusion, should I assume you have not played the Cataclysm expansion, or ever visited the Twilight Highlands post-Cata? Because if you did, you would not be holding the opinion you have about the Wildhammers.

Explain what about the twilight highlands is so gamechanging.

You linked something that has nothing to do with your original claim. I didn't ask about tauren racials. I talked about your claim that shamans are necessarily tribalistic. Your link at best, says that tauren medicine men happen to be shaman, not the other way around.

That's what they are in real life.
Why do you think it was Horde-exclusive while Paladins were Alliance-exclusive?

[Triceron]

Not the player.
But, they did use it during BfA.

How is this relevant to your argument about races losing culture?

You're admitting culture exists well beyond the player. End of argument.

Why pseudoscience when chemistry is science?

Because witchcraft is more than just chemistry. It involves esoteric magic and non-scientific rituals.

"Leper gnomes are a diseased, twisted, violent, and mutated race of gnomes who wander through the irradiated halls of Gnomeregan."

Which can be cured.

You can't cure a Forsaken back to the original race.

I'm not saying it erases everything.
I'm saying it goes against it.
Dalaran is mainly comprised of humans and elves. You choosing to go there has little effect.

You used words that argue otherwise. You asked what is the point of Orc Culture is they started to become Paladins. The answer is already obviously no effect if we are talking about a Player Orc choosing to become one, since Orc Culture exists beyond the player. You argeed with that point.

Night elves are descended from trolls. Should they have Troll culture?

Any race can explore Troll culture regardless of ancestry. We have Gnomes and Humans taking up Troll culture already.

But it also makes sense to explore their ancestry to open up new comboes. Look at NE mage lore bridging in the Highborne which they distanced themselves culturally from. Sometimes it makes sense to explore pre-existing connections, especially if the lore is prompting an acceptance for lost ancestral culture.

With what? Gnomes or humans?
As i've explained, radiated gnomes are leper gnomes, so it fits them more. As for humans, i only found the hairstyle appropriate. Linking something to ancestry doesn't always work.

You haven't really explained why this doesn't work

You just seem to disagree without explanation and choose to value hairstyles instead. Again, the class in question isn't even exclusively barbaric. Shamaniam has been broadened to many other subthemes like Priestly worship (Kul Tiran) and other non-spiritual means (Dark Iron, Goblin). We have many types of civilized Shamans today, the class is well beyond only being an ascetic hermit living in the wilds. The role of spiritual leader is only applicable to a subset of Shamans now, namely the Farseers. There are many races who have Shamans who may not even commune with the elements, rather dominating them by force or creating contracts for mutual benefit, as Goblins and Dark Irons seem to do.

If you can accept a non-tribal Tidesage as being a Shaman, you need to rethink what the definition of a Shaman really is, rather than being stuck with a 2004 definition.

Barbarians are, indeed, warriors. But, they are also primal and tribal, which could link to something like lightning and bloodlust.

But you also acknowledge every race has access to tgis Barbarian option, regardless of their culture, right?

You can be a Mechagnome Warrior who uses lightning strike attacks and fuel their attacks with pure Rage. This has nothing to do with Mechagnome culture, nor is any race being excluded from exploring such themes.

Just because the Warrior class contains barbaric themes does not make these themes exclusive to barbaric races. You have the choice to align races you think fit the best class or vice versa, but you need to recognize this as being your choice, and not some hard-fast rule that continues to drive game lore logic. Cultural lore has grown by leaps and bounds since Cataclysm.

I know that.
But, we don't want to retread the death knight.

Speak for yourself.

No one else views this as being a problem. Everyone is capable of recognizing that the player isn't always representative of their culture, even you admit this. Draenei Warlock clearly doesn't represent Draenei culturally embracing Fel magic. The Warlock is always going to be considered a player's choice no matter what culture they come from. It is not a reflection of their culture. It is literally a Death Knight retread, and that's okay because some class options will always be fringe options, especially those exploring specific niches like Pandaren culture, Elven Arcane magic or the Holy Light.

Do you think Monk should have stayed exclusive to Pandaren bevause no other race had pre existing culture linked to Pandaren martial arts?

The choice is always going to be from the player. The only limitations today are lack of art resources to support all variations of class/race comboes, esp for Druids. The only real excrption is Evoker, whose magic is intended to be something one is born with, and not yet applicable to training or adopting Draconic powers.

[Ielenia]

I know that.

Do you?! Because every single word you type diametrically opposes that claim.

But, we don't want to retread the death knight.

Which is literally what no one else but you are arguing about. This dumb logic is akin to talking about a dragon class that uses fire, frost and arcane and you go "lEt'S nOt ReTrEaD tHe MaGe".

Don't they?

They don't.

If i remember correctly,

You don't.

But, you want everyone to be included.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with representation. I said I see no reason to not allow all races to be witches/witch doctors/apothecaries. I never said anything about the class "representing those races".

Then, what's the point of doing that?

Giving people the chance to play their favorite race as part of that class? Is that concept really so alien to you that it never once crosses your mind?

Have you ever provided quotes and links to your claims? Because i do.

I have. It's called "have you played the Cataclysm expansion at all?" Because if you did, you would see how utterly wrong you are about the Wildhammer dwarves.

I'm not saying it alters their entire culture. I'm saying it's not made up of just you, the player.

Which is a claim I never once in my life have made. Meaning you are making a strawman to argue against.

You're going in circles instead of answering questions.

I already answered your question. The Cataclysm expansion, and the Twilight Highlands specifically, has all the answers you need. Answers you would have if you actually played the expansion. But speaking of "refusing to answer questions", that's a question you have not only repeatedly refused to answer, but you haven't even acknowledged the question, either.

It does. A big part of the lore are racial classes lore.

No. Racials are not lore. They are a reflection of the lore.

The element of air.

Are you bullshiting us right now? That makes absolutely no sense. I'd say you're grasping at straws, but you're just grasping at nothing now.

Explain what about the twilight highlands is so gamechanging.

Game changing? Nothing. But it has Wildhammer dwarves.

That's what they are in real life.

See, this is more evidence that you're not actually arguing in good faith, considering I've told you several times that I don't care for real-life definitions.

Why do you think it was Horde-exclusive while Paladins were Alliance-exclusive?

Let me guess: bEcAuSe OrCs DoN't ExIsT iN rEaL lIfE?

[username993720]

How is this relevant to your argument about races losing culture?

You're admitting culture exists well beyond the player. End of argument.

Yes. That's the point.
You being special doesn't mean the whole race is.

Because witchcraft is more than just chemistry. It involves esoteric magic and non-scientific rituals.

Exactly.
Which fits less the scientific gnomes.

Which can be cured.

You can't cure a Forsaken back to the original race.

Got an example?
You can cure a worgen, as well, can't you? Doesn't mean the Worgen doesn't exist as a race.

You used words that argue otherwise. You asked what is the point of Orc Culture is they started to become Paladins. The answer is already obviously no effect if we are talking about a Player Orc choosing to become one, since Orc Culture exists beyond the player. You argeed with that point.

We'd like players to be an extension of their races' lore. A class addition would impact the whole race's lore, not just you. If you want, there can be a free-for-all, lore-less realm for the eccentrics.

Any race can explore Troll culture regardless of ancestry. We have Gnomes and Humans taking up Troll culture already.

How?

But it also makes sense to explore their ancestry to open up new comboes. Look at NE mage lore bridging in the Highborne which they distanced themselves culturally from. Sometimes it makes sense to explore pre-existing connections, especially if the lore is prompting an acceptance for lost ancestral culture.

Highborne are Night elves, not a different race. They were a caste within Night elf society.

You haven't really explained why this doesn't work

You just seem to disagree without explanation and choose to value hairstyles instead. Again, the class in question isn't even exclusively barbaric. Shamaniam has been broadened to many other subthemes like Priestly worship (Kul Tiran) and other non-spiritual means (Dark Iron, Goblin). We have many types of civilized Shamans today, the class is well beyond only being an ascetic hermit living in the wilds.

If you can accept a Tidesage as being a Shaman, you need to rethink what the definition of a Shaman really is, rather than being stuck with a 2004 definition.

When you think of enhancement, for example.
There are other versions of the shaman, of course. Try and make a connection.

But you also acknowledge every race has access to tgis Barbarian option, regardless of their culture, right?

You can be a Mechagnome Warrior who uses lightning strike attacks and fuel their attacks with pure Rage. This has nothing to do with Mechagnome culture, nor is any race being excluded from exploring such themes

As part of a general warrior class. We can't limit specializations. It's a gameplay feature. That's how we end up with shadow lightforged draenei priests, or holy void elf priests.

No one else views this as being a problem. Everyone is capable of recognizing that the player isn't always representative of their culture, even you admit this. Draenei Warlock clearly doesn't represent Draenei culturally embracing Fel magic. The Warlock is always going to be considered a player's choice no matter what culture they come from. It is not a reflection of their culture. It is literally a Death Knight retread, and that's okay because some class options will always be fringe options, especially those exploring specific niches like Pandaren culture, Elven Arcane magic or the Holy Light.

That's why they gave us the eredar option.

Do you think Monk should have stayed exclusive to Pandaren bevause no other race had pre existing culture linked to Pandaren martial arts?

I think there should be customization. The holy monk works better for humans, for example.

The choice is always going to be from the player. The only limitations today are lack of art resources to support all variations of class/race comboes, esp for Druids. The only real excrption is Evoker, whose magic is intended to be something one is born with, and not yet applicable to training or adopting Draconic powers.

I guess.
But, for the love of god, add appropriate and satisfying lore with it.

[Triceron]

Yes. That's the point.
You being special doesn't mean the whole race is.

Yes, because your player character is not a direct representation of your race as a whole. Never has worked that way. If my Tauren takes up Engineering, that is my choice, not because it is a representation of Tauren culture.

Exactly.
Which fits less the scientific gnomes.

Does it matter whether it fits them or not? There's literally only one class that fits Gnomes, and that's the unplayable Tinker. Everything else has varying levels of subthemes that don't really fit Gnomish culture.

Warrior? Gnomes don't have a culture of barbarianism or armored combat. They don't even fit the big-and-brawny archetype associated with the class.
Rogue? Gnomish culture isn't known for being dishonourable thieves or greedy gold-seekers, nor are they known to be assassins.
Hunters? Aside from using guns, Gnomes aren't wilderness survivalists or pet tamers.
Mages? Sure Gnomes are intelligent, but they were never a part of Dalaran or ever associated with using magic.

I think it's quite odd that you'd default to using culture to address which classes would fit. Gnomes in Warcraft have only ever been portrayed as vehicle pilots, like the Flying Machine and the Submarines. All the current Class options never existed in their culture prior to WoW. The point is, none of these classes ever needed to fit into pre-existing culture of any race. Class themes are meant to be explored by the race you pick.

Got an example?
You can cure a worgen, as well, can't you? Doesn't mean the Worgen doesn't exist as a race.

Their change is permanent, the cure doesn't remove their ability to turn into Werewolves. It's not an impermanent condition.

We'd like players to be an extension of their races' lore. A class addition would impact the whole race's lore, not just you. If you want, there can be a free-for-all, lore-less realm for the eccentrics.

You have that choice. If you play a Night Elf, you have a choice to only stick to lore-savvy classes and not play the outliers like a Warlock, Mage or Monk. Blizzard hasn't removed any lore or your freedom to choose.

A class addition doesn't impact any race's lore beyond you. In most cases, odd comboes are attributed to outliers; much like Night Elf Warlock is not the norm or standard for their culture.

How?

Gnomes and Human Witchdoctors already exist as NPCs in the world. They have embraced Troll culture.

Highborne are Night elves, not a different race. They were a caste within Night elf society.

And what difference would that be to a new branch of Stormwind Humans who started to revere and worship the Watchers or the Elements? Or Nature and the Wild Gods for that matter? These would still be castes within the races, just ones that are either newly formed or having lost branches being newly discovered.

When you think of enhancement, for example.
There are other versions of the shaman, of course. Try and make a connection.

So when you play a Tidesage, you think they are savage barbarians? If you rolled a Dark Iron Enhancement Shaman, you believe they become tribal savages that doesn't fit Dark Iron culture? Hell, even if we roll back to TBC, did you ever feel a Draenei Enh Shaman was tribally barbaric?

As part of a general warrior class. We can't limit specializations. It's a gameplay feature. That's how we end up with shadow lightforged draenei priests, or holy void elf priests.

This is how we will continue to have new class comboes in the future.
These themes may be a part of the class, but they have never limited what races can be what. The 'lore' limitations from the past are all but gone now.

That's why they gave us the eredar option.

But that's still just an option. You can play a blue skin Draenei Warlock all the same. Draenei Warlock lore isnt even about Eredar. We had a quest involving a regular blue skinned Draenei NPC choose to become a Warlock.

I think there should be customization. The holy monk works better for humans, for example.

Not really, because all your moves are still rooted in Pandaren techniques and Pandaria's themes of Mists, Chi and August Celestials. Like a Holy Monk option isn't going to change the fact your character channels the powers of Yu'lon or use Brews to tank.

I guess.
But, for the love of god, add appropriate and satisfying lore with it.

I'd agree, and I think they're doing a decent job for the most part. I think they could handle Paladin and Shamans pretty easily for most races.

[Al Gorefiend]

But the obvious Warcraft alchemists are characters like Putricide or Putress, or the most obvious of the lot, Noggenfogger. They're not using snips, snails and puppy dog tails, they're dragging out plague spreaders or working with more of an engineering bent

Genuinely, the way Warcraft's presented it? I think it fits more with the tinker side than the witch side.

I could see the alchemist twist going to Tinker only because Witch could access a different type of magic to heal and damage, Tinker healing is pretty limited

[FossilFree]

Anyone can learn to be any class. It isn't something hard-coded into their DNA that their "race" can only do certain jobs. Suggesting anything otherwise is racist, plain and simple.

[Nightshade711]

Playing through Midnight a bit more and I have a feeling we won't get Tinker in TLT.

IF we get a new class, I think it'll be more directly tied to Azeroth/Aln with the typical Azerite visuals. All of the properties we've seen from it would fit for each role.

[Eldryth]

Even if you're in favor of restricting classes with a strong racial theme (like most people here, I strongly oppose that)... the Witch is far from one of them. At least, if you're going by the popular take from the old allegedly leaked survey that started all this discussion.


People have been talking about it as if it's a distinctly Troll class, which it isn't- and using it interchangeably with the very different Witch Doctor (and if someone would rather ask for said Witch Doctor instead, they're welcome to suggest that, but so long as you're calling it Witch, you should expect people to think you're actually talking about a Witch).

As a reminder, here's what the Witch actually was, according to that survey:

Witch: Damagedealers and Healers that use “old magic” to reach towards darker, natural powers. Their magic includes curses, familiars, rituals, spiritual connections, poisons, decay, and more. This class builds onto the teachings of witches and dark magicians of WoW, including the witches of Drustvar, the Gilnean harvest witches, the decay gnolls and troll hexes, and spirit magic.

It was very much a broader take on "dark natural magics", with Troll hexes being just one of many things incorporated into the class. There's no Voodoo, no Loa- the description focused far on aspects drawn from Human lore than anything else (well, Kul Tiran and Gilnean, anyway...). But it's all stuff that I can easily see just about any race doing, especially under the current status quo. I feel like anything that can be a Warlock would also fit as this Witch, and at this point, that means every single race.


Also, as for the talk about whether or not alchemy would fit a Witch, well... poisons are right there in the description, so that kind of alchemy would be there if that leak was real.


And for the record, as I mentioned once before- I wouldn't actually be against an actual Loa/Voodoo focused class, assuming it was very heavy on Amani stuff (the one Troll subgroup I'd be interested in). But that is very different from the Witch. And, frankly, it's really hard to picture how they could really work the Loa into a class given how different each Troll tribe's pantheons are (and of course, merging them would completely destroy Troll lore; I can't imagine anything worse they could do to the race). Even if they did make an exclusively Troll class, I can't see how they could even make the same thing fit for all Trolls.

Playing through Midnight a bit more and I have a feeling we won't get Tinker in TLT.

IF we get a new class, I think it'll be more directly tied to Azeroth/Aln with the typical Azerite visuals. All of the properties we've seen from it would fit for each role.

It'd definitely fit well for us to get a new power from Azeroth once she's freed and takes an active role. And I still think Bard would be a great fit for that kind of class, given the emphasis on the Radiant Song.