1. #1

    Thumbs up I introduce to you PvE+: replacing both Mythic+ and Raiding for a new PvE super-game.

    You have read me talking about this here and there on replies of other threads but it's time to put it clearly as the main topic of discussion for community-leaders feedback; I remember fondly the time I suggested to the devs to replace the 10man and 25man sub-gametypes with a new ~18-man-only raid; it's time for a new major update to the PvE super-gametype.

    Section A: The WHY:

    1) The trash of 5mans are just ..trashy most of the time (it's in the name players gave to them); they do not deserve being counted; they result to flavor-of-the-month specs cheesing it with basic AOE and basic single-target and making the whole 5man gametype a chaotic silly thing.

    2) PvE of Raiding has an elephant in the room: 5mans of mythic+ clearly have something superior than raiding; the timer clearly has something to do with it; we must find a way to make raiding into Raiding+ but without ruining it for anyone (either casual or professional).

    3) PvE in whole and Especially raiding must have downtimes; people want to relax once in a while; Raiding has that extremely excessively at its downtimes (leading even casuals hating they have to spend so much time inside instances) but mythic+ is too stressful.

    Section B: The WHAT to do about it:

    1) Do not count any trash-time or any out-of-combat time; if you do count a trash group: make sure it's well-designed like a boss; out of combat time is perfect for relaxation to be dropped and nobody wants to reward anyone for being good at going up stairs.

    2) Do the exact same for raiding / 20mans; there is absolutely no reason anymore to avoid turning it into raiding+; you knew from the start the main reason you avoided it (but you wanted it) is the extra stress of 5man-mythic+ and now this is gone.

    3) Start from an extremely easily-done level for Raiding; this will keep it perfect for casuals and easier than normal initially; it will leave the Professionals able to reach their absolute limits at the same time.

    Section C: " But what about the CASUALs and the PROs and the LEGACY designs":

    1) The casuals are covered perfectly when it's starting from an easier-than-normal difficulty; also some casuals do want a time-limit in reality; don't they hate it if they have to spend their entire week in front of a difficult boss (they want an excuse to quit to their raid leader for the week).

    2) The professionals are covered the most of all; there will never be a limit; also they will show their skill clearly because trashy-trash are not counted and flavor-of-the month cheese-AOE(or ST) are not able to contaminate the competition.

    3) Legacy designs can exist as special events; or even in parallel; but why have suboptimal designs as the main thing: you know raiding is missing something after mythic+ was introduced and: you know mythic+ is lacking more order.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2023-12-06 at 02:25 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    1) The trash of 5mans are just ..trashy most of the time (it's in the name players gave to them); they do not deserve being counted; they result to flavor-of-the-month specs cheesing it with basic AOE and basic single-target and making the whole 5man gametype a chaotic silly thing.
    The trash packs in dungeons serve a purpose: to give the player some less intensive time between intense boss fights to unwind and relax. If the game was just nonstop boss battles, it would become tedious and exhausting. Some trash packs do require some thought put into them, especially if you are pulling multiple packs, so players can amp up the intensity if they want to.


    2) PvE of Raiding has an elephant in the room: 5mans of mythic+ clearly have something superior than raiding; the timer clearly has something to do with it; we must find a way to make raiding into Raiding+ but without ruining it for anyone (either casual or professional).
    I find mythic+ preferable to raiding because I can jump into it immediately. Apply for a queue, get instantly accepted, we spend the next two minutes travelling/summoning people, /readycheck, and we go and then we're done within 30 minutes, and then you have a 50/50 chance of getting loot, and sometimes another person might give their item to you. With raiding, you apply for a group, and then you spend 20-30 minutes waiting for the group to fill, and then you have 5-10 minutes of downtime between boss pulls where people are doing nothing, and then a full clear takes 3-4 hours (if the group even finishes), and then you're lucky to have gotten a single piece of loot by the end. Another thing in M+'s favor is that there are only five players. You can keep track of who the other four players in your group are and remember them, and your individual contribution is noticeable. There is also a more personable atmosphere in the chat where everyone is participating. Whereas in a raid, you can't keep track of 15-20+ people. You're only going to know who the two tanks and the raid leader are, and people's contributions are usually unnoticeable, and you can't have everyone typing in chat so it's mostly a lot of silent people taking orders from the tanks and leader. People's individual contributions become noticeable if the raid has to regularly be split up into smaller groups, like Sha of Fear where multiple parties had to go to the different pagodas, or a party detaching from the main raid to hop onto the conveyor belt during Siegecrafter Blackfuse, but this is rare.


    mythic+ is too stressful
    The only stress is from the toxic PUG community where people are going into this with a selfish, mercenary mentality where they matter more important than the group they signed up for. Everyone is on edge and you're waiting for that guy who is going to start shittalking the moment someone makes a mistake (pro tip: humans make mistakes!) or leaves after one wipe. If you play tank this doesn't feel that bad since you can just instantly apply for another key group. PUGing raids is usually less stressful since there isn't a timer to beat but you still ocassionally get that guy who is whining about "low DPS" when low DPS is almost never the issue unless you're on mythic.

  3. #3
    Ok, so you basically want to remove m+ and raiding and turn raiding into 4-hour m+ sessions.
    What a supergenius at work here..... next.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerEelemental View Post
    Ok, so you basically want to remove m+ and raiding and turn raiding into 4-hour m+ sessions.
    What a supergenius at work here..... next.
    Into 4-hour m+ sessions in a raid-sized group, basically removing a lot of the appeal of m+

  5. #5
    Will try to keep it succint: it seems you don't like m+, but for some reason are trying to make raiding into it. That's a bad idea, both modes have their merit. If you don't like one, play the other, if you don't like both, suggest what you want changed about that one.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You have read me talking about this here and there on replies of other threads but it's time to put it clearly as the main topic of discussion for community-leaders feedback; I remember fondly the time I suggested to the devs to replace the 10man and 25man sub-gametypes with a new ~18-man-only raid; it's time for a new major update to the PvE super-gametype.

    Section A: The WHY:

    1) The trash of 5mans are just ..trashy most of the time (it's in the name players gave to them); they do not deserve being counted; they result to flavor-of-the-month specs cheesing it with basic AOE and basic single-target and making the whole 5man gametype a chaotic silly thing.
    Yeah because people don't class stack in raids to cheese them, no sir. Never happens.

    2) PvE of Raiding has an elephant in the room: 5mans of mythic+ clearly have something superior than raiding; the timer clearly has something to do with it; we must find a way to make raiding into Raiding+ but without ruining it for anyone (either casual or professional).
    Why?

    3) PvE in whole and Especially raiding must have downtimes; people want to relax once in a while; Raiding has that extremely excessively at its downtimes (leading even casuals hating they have to spend so much time inside instances) but mythic+ is too stressful.
    What are you even saying here?

    Section B: The WHAT to do about it:

    1) Do not count any trash-time or any out-of-combat time; if you do count a trash group: make sure it's well-designed like a boss; out of combat time is perfect for relaxation to be dropped and nobody wants to reward anyone for being good at going up stairs.
    Defeats the purpose of the RUN being on a timer, if only the bosses are.

    2) Do the exact same for raiding / 20mans; there is absolutely no reason anymore to avoid turning it into raiding+; you knew from the start the main reason you avoided it (but you wanted it) is the extra stress of 5man-mythic+ and now this is gone.
    ????????????????????????

    3) Start from an extremely easily-done level for Raiding; this will keep it perfect for casuals and easier than normal initially; it will leave the Professionals able to reach their absolute limits at the same time.
    This is already how raiding is. What exactly are you proposing they change?

    Section C: " But what about the CASUALs and the PROs and the LEGACY designs":

    1) The casuals are covered perfectly when it's starting from an easier-than-normal difficulty; also some casuals do want a time-limit in reality; don't they hate it if they have to spend their entire week in front of a difficult boss (they want an excuse to quit to their raid leader for the week).
    Then we agree this whole post is unnecessary.

    2) The professionals are covered the most of all; there will never be a limit; also they will show their skill clearly because trashy-trash are not counted and flavor-of-the month cheese-AOE(or ST) are not able to contaminate the competition.
    This post is just becoming one great big incoherent mess.

    3) Legacy designs can exist as special events; or even in parallel; but why have suboptimal designs as the main thing: you know raiding is missing something after mythic+ was introduced and: you know mythic+ is lacking more order.
    ?????????????????????
    Jesus this guy certainly took some time getting banned, just awful, incoherent and baity takes from every post he makes.
    If I don't respond to something you tagged me in, assume one of two things.
    1) Your post was too stupid to acknowledge, or
    2) Your post is cringe and not worth replying to.

    Alternatively, if it happens a lot I probably have you blocked due to one of the above things. Thank you.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The trash packs in dungeons serve a purpose: to give the player some less intensive time between intense boss fights to unwind and relax. If the game was just nonstop boss battles,
    You misunderstood the suggestion. The 5mans would be similarly designed; but the trash would not be counted on the timer unless they are too special and complex so they can not be cheesed by flavor-of-the-week simplistic-AOE (or simplistic-ST).

    I don't know about you but that's more relaxing to me; I don't have to care about trashy ..trash; I don't have to care for a game that is unfair at skillful-competition and rewards whoever has flavor of the week too much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerEelemental View Post
    turn raiding into 4-hour m+ sessions.
    That's a strawman argument. I never said how long it will be; what is certain is that it will not be necessarily hard for the casuals; it can start from extremely easy (easier than normal!).

    The "regular max length" initially designed could just be an average of current sessions of "reasonable" guilds:: say ..12 hours in a week but that's up to devs(I don't have 'a number').

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    removing a lot of the appeal of m+
    That's not a argument against the suggestion. It reaffirms what I said about a superiority of m+ over raiding (over certain aspects of it).

    So yes thanks for pointing it out; I do want to make raiding superior to what it is; but I also improve m+ by not counting ..trashy trash.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amariw View Post
    Will try to keep it succint: it seems you don't like m+, but for some reason are trying to make raiding into it.
    That's a strawman argument. I said m+ is superior to raiding on certain aspects; the timer (and progression on it) clearly has something to do with it; but also m+ suffers at fairness-of-competiion when flavor-of-the-month specs excel at trashy trash (players originally gave them the name trash because they are trashy).

    Raiding is excessively "relaxing" so to speak; even casuals start hating it if their raid leader has them in there for more than several hours a week; having a timer will make it feel more vibrant and meaningful and:it does not have to start from hard since "Raiding+ 1" can be designed easier than even normal.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2023-12-10 at 07:27 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Jesus this guy certainly took some time getting banned, just awful, incoherent and baity takes from every post he makes.
    yeah almost every thread of his is a really bad idea that will kill the game.

  9. #9
    Any by the way in addition: to all users talking about relaxation: mainly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    time between intense boss fights to unwind and relax.
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by Amariw View Post
    don't like m+, but for some reason are trying to make raiding into it.
    , PvE+ is implied that it would be designed with being able to EXIT THE INSTANCE without breaking the timer.

    I don't know what's a better quality-of-life improvement at relaxation than that and it's not contaminating the competition at all because what are they going to say against it: "you didn't let me compete at killing simplistic trash with flavor of the month AOE and you didn't let me compete at going up the stairs with my mount"?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    baity takes from every post he makes.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    yeah almost every thread of his is a really bad idea that will kill the game.
    I originally suggested to the devs, to turn 10man and 25man raiding to a single ~18man raid for hard modes.

    I don't ask for a thanks; I'm telling you personal attacks are not arguments; historical facts are.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    The trash of 5mans are just ..trashy most of the time (it's in the name players gave to them); they do not deserve being counted; they result to flavor-of-the-month specs cheesing it with basic AOE and basic single-target and making the whole 5man gametype a chaotic silly thing.
    quick question .. what is your highest key level you cleared on a difficult fortified week?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by lagiacrux View Post
    quick question .. what is your highest key level you cleared on a difficult fortified week?
    You are fishing for an ad hominem argument which is a form of a veiled personal attack and irrelevant to gaming design.

    If I have a better key than you: it doesn't make my point better than yours.

    If you have a worse key than mine: it does not make your ideas worse either; this is gaming design; not comparing performance inside the gaming design.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You are fishing for an ad hominem argument which is a form of a veiled personal attack and irrelevant to gaming design.

    If I have a better key than you: it doesn't make my point better than yours.

    If you have a worse key than mine: it does not make your ideas worse either; this is gaming design; not comparing performance inside the gaming design.
    No, the thing is you only can have your laughable opinion of trash being simple and more aoe would be all that's needed to get it down if you run keys low enough that trash pulls can be healed.

    The higher you go the more dangerous trash becomes and some trash pulls need as much coordination as boss fights. If you never do keys high enough that things like who is doing which damage cd at which pack is discussed before the run then of course "just aoe them down" is all you know.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You are fishing for an ad hominem argument which is a form of a veiled personal attack and irrelevant to gaming design.
    Correct, but it is a completely valid question when you're trying to give your opinions on things. If someone has only cleared a +5 as their highest, then their opinion on high level M+ is entirely irrelevant. Ditto for other similar difficulty-related things.

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I originally suggested to the devs, to turn 10man and 25man raiding to a single ~18man raid for hard modes.

    Yes I'm sure Mythic was TOTALLY your idea. Lmao.
    If I don't respond to something you tagged me in, assume one of two things.
    1) Your post was too stupid to acknowledge, or
    2) Your post is cringe and not worth replying to.

    Alternatively, if it happens a lot I probably have you blocked due to one of the above things. Thank you.

  14. #14
    I was laughing my ass off while reading. You are literally placing every group into a box, inside of a box and prioritizing hardcore as highest and lowest. You will never have enough to improve your game, if you have a hardcore focused. You have to mill a lot of content to keep up. Backseating the casual gamers is going to reduce your ability to expand or keep up with the content consumption. Your attitude towards casual games is very transparent and does not attract or motivate people to want to see your vision through.
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  15. #15
    So you complain about flavor of the month specs, let's go see the highest key the lowest tier of class has completed this season. Affliction warlocks have completed +23 and both devastation along with MM hunter have completed 25s so the lowest performing specs have completed keys well above the reward threshold meaning that even the non meta specs can achieve more success then most of the playerbase means that everything is viable.

    How about instead of worry about could be's and maybes you just play the bloody game? Will i invite you? well if you dont help melee dps then no but that does not mean its not viable unless you want the game to cater to your exclusion paranoia?

    Mythic plus has given people a mode that makes them feel good for doing big damage with clearing trash which in most raid boss fights do not have the same level of viability and your solution actually shuts more specs out of the game instead of increasing it and ruins the pick up and play for a bit mindset that MMO's are about now, this is a stupid take honestly.

  16. #16
    No, thank you.

    Seriously, no.

  17. #17
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    You have already made this thread twice recently and both threads are still open:

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ive-incomplete

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...aiding-and-PvP

    We do not need a 3rd version of this same idea for a thread. Use the existing threads to discuss adjustments to the general idea.



    CLOSED.

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