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  1. #41
    Field Marshal Lodidop's Avatar
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    Kinda hoped Phase 2 would give Warlocks the Seed of Corruption rune...

  2. #42
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodidop View Post
    Kinda hoped Phase 2 would give Warlocks the Seed of Corruption rune...
    Of all the things Warlocks need, more AoE is not one of them.
    Ex-Mod. Technically retired, they just won't let me quit.

  3. #43
    Field Marshal Lodidop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Of all the things Warlocks need, more AoE is not one of them.
    Are you trying to imply that Warlocks already have good AoE spells? Because SBV, RoF and HF are all MID at best.

  4. #44
    Seems the next phases will have 20 man raids, and seems the devs still believe most of their players care about raids. And seems they will "retune" the raids. Which means, they will create them in nowadays raid difficulty, which means, they will be literally rocket science for most of their players.. again. Rather than allowing raids to be organic small group gameplay, they make group sizes even larger.

    So much for bias.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    Seems the next phases will have 20 man raids, and seems the devs still believe most of their players care about raids. And seems they will "retune" the raids. Which means, they will create them in nowadays raid difficulty, which means, they will be literally rocket science for most of their players.. again. Rather than allowing raids to be organic small group gameplay, they make group sizes even larger.

    So much for bias.
    Why would they make level 60 raids retail difficulty when BFD and Gnomer have both been extremely easy? Do you really believe they're going to make Molten Core require hundreds of attempts per boss? You're literally just making shit up to get upset at.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    Why would they make level 60 raids retail difficulty when BFD and Gnomer have both been extremely easy? Do you really believe they're going to make Molten Core require hundreds of attempts per boss? You're literally just making shit up to get upset at.
    I just know the developer bias. I mean, they are the guys who released SoM and thought that would be the next big hit.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    I just know the developer bias. I mean, they are the guys who released SoM and thought that would be the next big hit.
    SoM did not have retail difficulty raids either.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    SoM did not have retail difficulty raids either.
    I guess the devs will redo the raids to what fits best to the developer bias.

    Which means.. way too convoluted.. way too difficult.. well, and the group size of 20 is also way too large. As more easy raids are and as smaller the groups are they adress as more players play them.

    From my PoV they should turn raids and dungeons into content being playable by 1-10 players. Flexible size, including solo players.
    Last edited by schmonz; 2024-03-02 at 05:14 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    I guess the devs will redo the raids which fit best to the developer bias.

    Which means.. way too convoluted.. way too difficult.. well, and the group size of 20 is also way too large. As more easy raids are and as smaller the groups are they adress as more players play them.

    From my PoV they should turn raids and dungeons into content being playable by 1-10 players. Flexible size, including solo players.
    They are not redoing the raids. They will have to retune them because DPS will be so high compared to vanilla. If Gnomer was a 40 man raid the bosses would already have more health than Molten Core bosses.

    It seems like you didn't actually read the post.

    "There are some features that just cannot currently exist in Original WoW as well, such as Flex Raiding, so we are constrained in exactly what we are able to do here. Molten Core is definitely unique here in that it is simple enough mechanically and under the hood that it would be relatively easy to pare down to a 20 player experience."

    This implies that 40 man raids won't be getting sweeping changes as you seem to believe. They don't have the resources or time to overhaul every raid.

    "While overhauling all 40 player raids down to 20 would be theoretically possible, this may be prohibitively difficult and detract significantly from the other features and content we have planned to implement in a post-60 Season of Discovery."

    There isn't a giant team working on SoD. You are asking for too much. If they had more resources and time they would obviously cut down raid sizes.

    Maybe after the success of SoD they will allocate more resources to whatever comes next.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    "There are some features that just cannot currently exist in Original WoW as well, such as Flex Raiding, so we are constrained in exactly what we are able to do here. Molten Core is definitely unique here in that it is simple enough mechanically and under the hood that it would be relatively easy to pare down to a 20 player experience."
    There had been private server projects where classic raids were tuned down to solo player experiences and flexible groups. Probably the developers could learn from something like that which was literally created by a few hobby programmers. I mean, we talk about Blizzard Entertainment, which is a multi billion dollar company. If one single player can create patches for server emulators which scale down difficulty, i am sure the blizzard wow team can do it as well.

    In the end, its just a lazy approach. And as usually, the developers lack the skill to do it right. Or, as i would guess, the will to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    This implies that 40 man raids won't be getting sweeping changes as you seem to believe. They don't have the resources or time to overhaul every raid.
    I am sure they would have the resources if they simply wanted to allocate them. That is not Nostalrius, run by two guys, but Blizzard with industry size development teams. If the developers of classic do not get high enough budgets, they probably should ask their producers to enable them to do the changes necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    "While overhauling all 40 player raids down to 20 would be theoretically possible, this may be prohibitively difficult and detract significantly from the other features and content we have planned to implement in a post-60 Season of Discovery."
    .. which means they simply do not want to do it. Which means raids will stay niche in SoD. This is all about bias, not about resources. The developers that run classic are simply tunnel visioned in their decisions, even when it is about a better version of classic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    There isn't a giant team working on SoD. You are asking for too much. If they had more resources and time they would obviously cut down raid sizes.
    Why should i bother with the question how many resources that billion dollar company gives to their developers other than asking them to invest the massive amounts of subs paid for SoD into game development that benefits the large amount of players which actually tried to play SoD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    Maybe after the success of SoD they will allocate more resources to whatever comes next.
    Hopefully. And even more hopefully the devs will get rid of their biases. Which seems to be the bigger problem. A real solution to every problem in endgame in SoD would be organic flexible dungeons and raids, which means, you simply would join a raid at its entrance and would either get matched with other players automatically or you would play it in the available size. Means, if you are the only one to join a raid instance or dungeon, you would play it alone. If two others joined, it would scale to this size.
    Last edited by schmonz; 2024-03-02 at 05:30 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    snip
    I like how you didn't address the raid difficulty part which was the whole point of this conversation and instead you just go off on a different tangent. Apparently they were hard at work redoing every single raid and adding more mechanics to make them more difficult but now they're lazy and don't want to balance anything. It is honestly impressive how you can twist anything to suit your bias. I'm just gonna save my sanity and do what other posters do and just ignore you.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    I like how you didn't address the raid difficulty part which was the whole point of this conversation and instead you just go off on a different tangent.
    And you really think that a 20 man version of MC will be easier or as easy as MC 40? Sure they will abuse that change to cater it to their idea of difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    Apparently they were hard at work redoing every single raid and adding more mechanics to make them more difficult but now they're lazy and don't want to balance anything.
    Sure they were, in SoM. And that one failed as predicted. Simply as noone wants hard raids in classic. In retail also not, as most play LFR, but thats another topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    It is honestly impressive how you can twist anything to suit your bias.
    At least my bias does not affect game design in a way the game is catered to a few only on endgame. If i would design the game it would adress many, not that few raiders only.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazer View Post
    I like how you didn't address the raid difficulty part which was the whole point of this conversation and instead you just go off on a different tangent. Apparently they were hard at work redoing every single raid and adding more mechanics to make them more difficult but now they're lazy and don't want to balance anything. It is honestly impressive how you can twist anything to suit your bias. I'm just gonna save my sanity and do what other posters do and just ignore you.
    Welcome to the club

  14. #54
    The Patient Ghanir's Avatar
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    I pray they make MC more interesting to raid without compromising much of its difficulty/speed cause I, and a lot of ppl, really can't muster raiding MC over and over for an extended period of time. MC is a good raid, but it is not designed well with grinding it for months in mind.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    Seems the next phases will have 20 man raids, and seems the devs still believe most of their players care about raids. And seems they will "retune" the raids. Which means, they will create them in nowadays raid difficulty, which means, they will be literally rocket science for most of their players.. again. Rather than allowing raids to be organic small group gameplay, they make group sizes even larger.

    So much for bias.
    Agreed. I dont want challenges in classic, if I want that play retail. I want actual fun content and gnome is already to hard now that leads to class stacking in raids and similar mindsets.

    Say right now BFD stays relevant because good loot and XP BUT MOST IMPORTANT IT STAYS RELEVANT BECAUSE ITS EASY...You just invite random ppl and do it in 28 mins now.
    Last edited by Djuntas; 2024-03-03 at 02:43 PM.
    Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/djuntas ARPG - RTS - MMO

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuntas View Post
    Agreed. I dont want challenges in classic, if I want that play retail. I want actual fun content and gnome is already to hard now that leads to class stacking in raids and similar mindsets.
    Imagine a raid is easy. Imagine that people still play the sick min maxing games we have in retail. Imagine how that actually fucked up the community that hard that Ion Hazzikostas Meritocracy turns even level 39 raids which are meant to be easy into a meritocracy.

    The community is sick, but unfortunately, the developers do not create vaccines but even bigger viruses called "competetive challenging raiding".



    "It was like a job interview kind of thing".. yes, that is what WoWs raiding game is nowadays. Jobs, not gameplay. Change your bias, Blizzard.
    Last edited by schmonz; 2024-03-03 at 08:57 PM.

  17. #57
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodidop View Post
    Are you trying to imply that Warlocks already have good AoE spells? Because SBV, RoF and HF are all MID at best.
    Hellfire with Incinerate + LoF is fine. Sure it's not Mage AoE but it's still better than most.

    If I were looking at improving warlocks, more AoE is not a priority. Making affliction and demonology not garbage would be more of a priority, right now everything is Destro or bust.


    Also people complaining that MC will be more difficult, it has to be, we already have significantly better toolkits that would make a mockery of the old version and the raid is so basic that it's already surpassed in difficulty by Kelris and half the fights in Gnomer.

    Molten Core is a dull tank and spank with basic, and overly forgiving, mechanics, it needs to be changed.
    Ex-Mod. Technically retired, they just won't let me quit.

  18. #58
    Field Marshal Lodidop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    If I were looking at improving warlocks, more AoE is not a priority. Making affliction and demonology not garbage would be more of a priority
    Wouldn't adding Seed of Corruption help with the goal of making aff and demo less garbage? Since it relies on applying dots and shadow damage.
    With that being said destro can also spam SoC like they did in TBC, so maybe we just can't beat destro after all.

  19. #59
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodidop View Post
    Wouldn't adding Seed of Corruption help with the goal of making aff and demo less garbage? Since it relies on applying dots and shadow damage.
    With that being said destro can also spam SoC like they did in TBC, so maybe we just can't beat destro after all.
    I'd rather go with things that amplify Aff/Demo specific damage than yet another aoe option.

    Something like Shadowbolts deal x% of their damage additionally over time, increasing for each debuff on the target from a list of affliction related ones. Sure Destrolocks could take it but are they really going to want to be doing corruption+curse of agony, and lacking siphon life and either taking haunt or channel free drain life?

    As for AoE I'd rather give Affliction something akin to Bloodboil for Death Knights, just dot up one target and spread to all within range.
    Ex-Mod. Technically retired, they just won't let me quit.

  20. #60
    Had a survey in my email this morning.
    And it contained an interesting part specifically in the SoD section.



    Titan runes, and looking into heroic+ dungeons.

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