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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    It doesn't need to be f2p just a lot cheaper and maybe a family subscription too.
    Do you really not believe their financial analysts would be telling them to do this if it would actually be more profitable than the current model?

    You could certainly argue that they are wrong, and it is conceivable that they are. But most the advanced analytics to determine this stuff are probably more accurate than random internet vibes.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  2. #82
    I think WoW should be f2p. The complete token system would become useless. And really, a shady whale hunt is way worse than a cosmetic item shop.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I picked a few at literal random. First ones that showed up in the search.



    Awesome.



    Also awesome.



    Goddamn. I'm with Taliesin on this one, the previous patch story became significantly better with finding out Fyrakk was the expansion end boss. I hope they get Matt Mercer to voice more stuff.
    Yeah almost 90% of the complaints at this point are just wanting Game of Thrones level grit for some bizarre reason.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    Yeah almost 90% of the complaints at this point are just wanting Game of Thrones level grit for some bizarre reason.
    Or just a well told narrative. I myself got into nothing of that elemental incarnate stuff. They bring in new characters after 20 years game age. Villains noone ever heard about. Which do not even survive a single expac.

    You know, there is a whole continuum of existent story arcs to be told. Azeroth still has that large sword in her back. Anyone ever saw Elune yet? Why did the black empire exist as a raid zone only?

    The void lords are out there since vanilla. Yet we never faced them. People want to go to elunes moon to quest there. Why did it never happen? What the hell happened to illidan after he faced Sargeras? And when is Gnomeregan actually been really freed?

    Story wise, blizzard reinvents new wheels over and over. While many stories have not been told to end.

  5. #85
    An R-Rated/18+ video game, set in the Warcraft universe, would be a lot of fun. The company could do a lot of cool stuff with that.

    But that's not WoW and those two just don't mix.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    Yeah almost 90% of the complaints at this point are just wanting Game of Thrones level grit for some bizarre reason.
    If nothing of importance is never lost how can you truely get invested knowing that? Not everything needs to be a murderous rampage but some compelling reasons to care and sort of get you to side with the villain is not a bad thing either. Look at the cast of the game and see how much fat could be trimmed, i for one would rather have localized conflicts instead of large swooping scale doom or gloom scenarios.

    Give me reasons to care its not very hard and no it does not need to be written like a Tarantino film either. Take the last of us for example on how to craft a great world and story ( looking at the first game mind you mostly but the 2nd is not shabby either ). The thing is that each location felt like a weekly TV show with people who while not staying a long time had left a very impact emotional feeling once they had left the narrative which helped in a passive way build the world thats all i am asking for.

  7. #87
    Elemental Lord Joveon Lightbringer's Avatar
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    "Inside every old person is a young person wondering wtf happened."
    ~ Terry Pratchett
    (paraphrased)

    Everyone playing this game is still a kid at heart. Blizz just needs to tell good stories, maintain fun specs, and create engaging challenges. The rest (including audiences) will take care of itself.

    To Infinity and Beyond!

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    Yeah almost 90% of the complaints at this point are just wanting Game of Thrones level grit for some bizarre reason.
    I've seen great adult shows aimed at adults and children's shows aimed at all ages. WoW has tried a lot of different tones depending on the expansion, but generally tends towards what I'd compare to Marvel and other comic book style stories of facing down menacing supervillains interwoven with smaller character moments. Gather macguffins, assemble avengers, et cetera.

    I don't think more swearing or blood would make a lick of difference as to the quality of their writing. I want to continue having stories, big or small, where I want to see how it ends and have emotional investment if something happens to the characters in the world. I want to see different characters who interact, shift, and grow over time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  9. #89
    Yes because the younger generation isn't playing the game even if it's catered to them. Same as catering to "modern audiences" like they've been doing with their soft and toothless interpretation of WoW, that's catering to people who already don't like your game and driving away the ones that do. From a business standpoint it's a horrible decision but it's the way Blizzard operates nowadays.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I picked a few at literal random. First ones that showed up in the search.

    snip

    Awesome.

    snip

    Also awesome.

    snip

    Goddamn. I'm with Taliesin on this one, the previous patch story became significantly better with finding out Fyrakk was the expansion end boss. I hope they get Matt Mercer to voice more stuff.
    Ugh...don't make me remember those aweful videos. Specially the one with Fyrakk interrogating the druid. Or the one with the random centaur turned into ash.

    These were the most epic cinematics from Blizzard:

    Shame WOD turned so bad, but at least the cinematic was awesome


    Legion:


    MOP:


    INGAME Cinematics:
    Legion


    WOTLK


    Any of these are like 1,000,000 better than anything in Dragonflight. Better lines, far better story and characters. I can't believe you like those aweful videos of Fyrakk, that are so freaking cringe and boring to watch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    I think WoW should be f2p. The complete token system would become useless. And really, a shady whale hunt is way worse than a cosmetic item shop.
    ESO is f2p and is always full of players. I'm playing right now in Area 52 and Orgrimmar is a freaking graveyard.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Altmer View Post
    ESO is f2p and is always full of players. I'm playing right now in Area 52 and Orgrimmar is a freaking graveyard.
    Ah the same old argument from people that don't understand how sharding works.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    Yeah almost 90% of the complaints at this point are just wanting Game of Thrones level grit for some bizarre reason.
    Because the game was like that for decades, with bits of softer content, instead of just being softer content with bits of edge in it?
    The people complaining about the "Game of Thrones" stuff are the people playing a game that wasn't for them, continually complaining about how they're tired of it, then being catered to for an expansion that is completely disconnected from the rest of the narrative.

    Nobody reasonable is asking for more gore and stuff for the sake of it.
    They want their adult fantasy faction war game back.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Ah the same old argument from people that don't understand how sharding works.
    And the same argument from people that doesn't understand that even with sharding....LFG chat is a graveyard. Even using /who gives you an idea of the # of players online...or your guild (mine is dead) or your friend list...etc...etc....etc.

  14. #94
    Also, people keep saying "younger generation" with this stuff, but teenagers and young adults are very much so still into the gritter stuff.
    Baldur's Gate 3 is still massive months after launch in fandom spaces, and that game is extremely dark and delves into subjects WoW used to without people crying left and right it's offensive. Warhammer is more popular than it's ever been, and the age range at the shop I walk past regularly is notable, and for the more actual cartoony stuff that's not akin to WoW but still slightly on topic, Hazbin Hotel absolutely exploded recently.

    It's not a "younger people" thing.
    It's trying to cater to audiences that want to sanitize media that just happen to be exceptionally loud on social media, and the media that isn't doing that is actually doing just fine.

    You know how you draw in audiences? Including a younger one?
    By embracing what your story is supposed to be and doing it well.
    And WoW isn't doing either of those things right now.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Altmer View Post
    Better lines, far better story and characters. I can't believe you like those aweful videos of Fyrakk, that are so freaking cringe and boring to watch.
    Subjective. In particular I would quantify level of emotional investment in the story completely independently of whether an expansion was a fun video game. That emotional investment tier list would go something like:

    1) BFA
    2) Dragonflight
    3) Shadowlands, admittedly cheating by its most investing moments being an epilogue of BFA and the rest feeling irrelevant
    4) Legion
    5) Pandaria
    6) Cataclysm
    7) WotLK
    8) WOD (just barely edged out over BC thanks to Garrosh's death cutscene)
    9) BC
    10) Vanilla, dead last.

    Looking back, a very strong trend towards improvement by them over time. Better cutscene technology post-MOP I think helped a lot.

    BFA really hit it where it hurt by making the conflict personal to us players with far-reaching ramifications that would shape huge amounts of the next two expansions. I'm hoping The War Within trilogy can exceed that with a focus on a longer-term vision. Aspects of Shadowlands in particular seem all but confirmed to have come about as a result of the writer of The War of Thorns leaving afterwards and the remaining writers having to make the resulting pieces work.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2024-02-13 at 01:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  16. #96
    Subjective indeed...

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Altmer View Post
    And the same argument from people that doesn't understand that even with sharding....LFG chat is a graveyard. Even using /who gives you an idea of the # of players online...or your guild (mine is dead) or your friend list...etc...etc....etc.
    This is just lies lol. Area 52 is booming I just now logged onto A52 and trade chat is spammy as usual. Maybe you are just alliance? lmao

  18. #98
    To the OP: The devs should be making something creative, and people will engage with it. The age of audience is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Subjective. In particular I would quantify level of emotional investment in the story completely independently of whether an expansion was a fun video game. That emotional investment tier list would go something like:

    1) BFA
    2) Dragonflight
    3) Shadowlands, admittedly cheating by its most investing moments being an epilogue of BFA and the rest feeling irrelevant
    4) Legion
    5) Pandaria
    6) Cataclysm
    7) WotLK
    8) WOD (just barely edged out over BC thanks to Garrosh's death cutscene)
    9) BC
    10) Vanilla, dead last.

    Looking back, a very strong trend towards improvement by them over time. Better cutscene technology post-MOP I think helped a lot.

    BFA really hit it where it hurt by making the conflict personal to us players with far-reaching ramifications that would shape huge amounts of the next two expansions. I'm hoping The War Within trilogy can exceed that with a focus on a longer-term vision. Aspects of Shadowlands in particular seem all but confirmed to have come about as a result of the writer of The War of Thorns leaving afterwards and the remaining writers having to make the resulting pieces work.


    The crux of my issue is that you are wanting to separate gameplay from the emotional investment, and I'd argue such a thing is detrimental to a fair analysis. Games don't just tell a narrative the same as books or movies, both of those do it separately to each other as well. Gameplay is the motivating factor that you engage with to move a story along. It's why, even though warrior in Classic feels bare-bones now, it worked well then IMO: You weren't a hero of the cosmos, you were a warrior with a damn weapon and as you went and used that sword you could improve your use of it (through talents) or find trainers to impart their wisdom. This is just one example of (for me) where the narrative dissonance for current WoW stems: the gameplay is on one side of a fence, story on the other, and sometimes they meet, but usually not IMO.

    This is also why I get confused when people put Vanilla dead last: The game was WORLD of warcraft, the game itself was a magnificent testament to just "go explore 5head". It was lacking if you wanted co-ordinated narrative direction but it DID have a very focused direction; the characters were just part of the WORLD of warcraft. I'm not saying that's how the designers fully intended, but replaying classic I felt something in the game I didn't even really appreciate near-20 years ago: The world feels alive, and we are MOVING through it, growing and seeing more of it and how it all works together. I can not STRESS enough that seeing Blackrock mountain in the distance and going "the hell is THAT?" is an emotional high I've never felt again in WoW. The fel reaver in BC was one of those weird things where he was just a giant robot, but the fact it was there, spooking and blatantly in your face also helped engineer the narrative was never in the written dialogues or cutscenes, but we, the people in the world, gave it so much more than just a quest npc at level cap for a dungeon key.

    I'm not saying it is better, because it's a personal preference; but when you slam BC and Vanilla dead as emotional investment I really need to ask how you played the game, because for me Fyrakk is "loot pinata man" because the game needs it, he exists and does things. Nefarian had fuck all story, but he was there, he had done things, we were also there, nothing in dragonflight has made me invested because the gameplay itself is so sectioned off from the story. Absolutely this will click nicely for some folks, but it gets to a point where I can't engage with both important facets of the game because each side works against the other.

    I'm not telling you that you are wrong, I just had an incredibly different engagement from early wow. As far as emotional investment goes, flipping the list entirely would be my result; When wow can do a good job of melding world building into narrative (hello mists!) they do a "pretty okay" job for me. Unfortunately, half the time forget/ignore quests, and I don't feel any compulsion to check them.
    Last edited by Polgara; 2024-02-13 at 02:21 AM.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ereb View Post
    This is just lies lol. Area 52 is booming I just now logged onto A52 and trade chat is spammy as usual. Maybe you are just alliance? lmao
    Yeah, wtf are they talking about? Area 52 is incredibly populated. Maybe they're in Warmode as well, I know WM is essentially dead compared to WM-Off. The Horde:Alliance split is insane, like 96% horde to 4% Alliance
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
    Whats the saying .. You have two brain cells and they are both fighting for third place !

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Yeah, wtf are they talking about? Area 52 is incredibly populated. Maybe they're in Warmode as well, I know WM is essentially dead compared to WM-Off. The Horde:Alliance split is insane, like 96% horde to 4% Alliance
    You mean people just do that? go on the internet and tell lies?
    3 Major Rules of World of Warcraft Players:
    1. No one on earth wants to play World of Warcraft less than other World of Warcraft players.
    2. The desire to win>The desire for anything else in World of Warcraft. NO EXCEPTIONS
    3. Efficiency will be king no matter how you think it will improve the game.

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