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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GratsDing45 View Post
    I'm gonna pick the hero talent that is gonna make me friggin dwarf king... why wouldn't I? I don't want to play a dwarf chieftain or blade master... or an orc mountain king. It's silly to me.

    I care a lot about the rpg and class fantasy bit. If the race doesn't fit the class I won't play it. My mount and MOG has to make sense and even my name has to be rp appropriate.. not 'milkmecowxd'. I don't even play on an rp server.
    This was kinda the idea behind Covenants. The whole player power thing kinda got in the way of that bit of RP so with Blizzard's stated goal of keeping these talents mostly competitive with one another, hopefully this ends up being something you can do without feeling like you're gimping your groups.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    This was kinda the idea behind Covenants. The whole player power thing kinda got in the way of that bit of RP so with Blizzard's stated goal of keeping these talents mostly competitive with one another, hopefully this ends up being something you can do without feeling like you're gimping your groups.
    I loved covenants (and maybe with time more ppl come forward and say they did) - and I like how some talents got implemented now into the class talents. But it also shows how I did pick covenants based on my class fantasy. The Necrolord ability Abominal link is now part of DKs, Divine Toll of Kyrain now part of Paladin talents.

    I remember at the time, the ppl complaining basically had the "argument" of: "Even if anything is 0.001% better because they can sim it, everyone is gonna pick that covenant and not the one they identify with".

    Making you able to switch covenants at will kinda ruined their idea for me in a RP sense, but ofc I did it for convinience in the end anyhow

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Passing through View Post
    I remember at the time, the ppl complaining basically had the "argument" of: "Even if anything is 0.001% better because they can sim it, everyone is gonna pick that covenant and not the one they identify with".
    Which is exactly what happened, though.

    What annoyed me the most about covenants was, that you had to choose one and use it for every spec. Which is the same BS Azerite powers was and the same BS Legion artifacts and Legendaries were. Our classes have 3 specs and the past 3 expansions made it impossible/very hard to play more than one for the first half of the expansion.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    But these issues mentioned on forums just seem... Fake compared to when you interact with people in the game. I've never played with someone who cares about the lore, every single person I've played with just picked the talents icy-veins tells them to pick and then never looks at that page again so it doesn't matter what it looks like nobody is picking a friggin hero talent because they wanna be like some king dwarf
    Confirmation bias.
    You sign up for content you enjoy, therefore you mostly encounter people who enjoy the same type of content. Chances are, those people think likewise - if you push keys or raid mythic (or even heroic), chances are, you care more about performance than theme. If you don't actively RP and seek people who do, how are you supposed to meet them? Basically, even in WoW it's easy to remain in your little bubble.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    That's it. The rest of the game could be a lobby for all I care, I don't know anyone that's gone "Oh I can't wait to go to timeless isles v 7.0 to do my routine dailies and rare elite killing" IDGAF mate, I just wanna do my raids, do my dungeons and log off.

    So like real talk. Do you people really care what your talents are called and look like? Do ya really care what the world content is, or how crafting works? Is this actually a thing that has any real impact on your gameplay and why?
    And this is why the "World"-part of WoW feels so "hollowed out", this selfish attitude of "Just give me a capital city and my precious raids, and i'm good.", of course you never met anybody who cared about anything else, "birds of a feather flock together" and all that, happily playing echo-chamber in your raid-guild you never heard any contrasting opinions.

    For a lot of people, the raids are the "Fluff", and stuff out in the world is what they enjoy doing, it's all a matter of perspective, and catering to people with your mindset is what caused a lot of things to get hollowed out already for other people.

  6. #26
    I will never understand why they reintroduced those awful shaman weapon imbue spells, they were gone for a good reason, the ability thats literally "press me once an hour" is absolutely retarded, pointless and I freaking hate this kind of fluff mechanics.

    Fluff like funny glyphs and costumes I dont mind.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Forums are naturally full of those complaining. Those happy with the game are playing.

    If you look at enough complaint threads often its the same people doing the complaining too.

    Not saying the game is flawless. It has plenty of flaws. But you get a lot of arm chair developers, people who want wow to be a completely different game, and people who just hope WoW dies some day.
    when something goes wrong, people complain

    when everything/something goes right, do people compliment? no, no they do not. not on the same scale as the complainers.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    Through the years I've seen so many comments like "wotlk talents were better" "I miss X ability" "I want to be a dark ranger" "this cinematic was bad" "Basic Lore" "Timeless Isles was the best type" and now people are saying Hero talents look bad etc. etc. etc.

    But these issues mentioned on forums just seem... Fake compared to when you interact with people in the game. I've never played with someone who cares about the lore, every single person I've played with just picked the talents icy-veins tells them to pick and then never looks at that page again so it doesn't matter what it looks like nobody is picking a friggin hero talent because they wanna be like some king dwarf, cinematics are fun to watch but they don't impact the experience of anyone I know and I don't know a single person who cares what colour their arrow is or what the ability is called.

    In reality, from my experience people actually want just a few things in WoW:

    1. Class abilities to feel impactful and fun to use, with a semi-challenging rotation that ramps up in difficulty when you obtain set bonuses but without an excessive amount of buttons.

    2. Low amount of forced content, get away from me with bloody covenants and Torghast and all that BS and just let me play the game.

    3. Well laid out Dungeons/Raids with interesting and innovative boss mechanics (which BTW, Blizzard are in league of there own when it comes to this)

    4. Good gear progression where harder content rewards better gear but you can get close to that in lower content it just takes more time (DF did a spectacular job at this)

    That's it. The rest of the game could be a lobby for all I care, I don't know anyone that's gone "Oh I can't wait to go to timeless isles v 7.0 to do my routine dailies and rare elite killing" IDGAF mate, I just wanna do my raids, do my dungeons and log off.

    So like real talk. Do you people really care what your talents are called and look like? Do ya really care what the world content is, or how crafting works? Is this actually a thing that has any real impact on your gameplay and why?
    Sounds like you might be unaware of your own confirmation bias most of all, but things like lore are more subtle and can fly under the radar, especially in common conversation.

    Lore is like the stitchwork that keeps the world from unravelling; why would you talk about stitchwork?
    Most people are rather bad at verbalising their complaints and will just go "Game is bad" and maybe parrot some popular talking point they don't even fully comprehend.
    But if a previously fitting garment now looks bad and you can't put your finger on it it is oftenthe stitchwork that is coming undone.

    Remember, lore consistency is vital to immersion.
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  9. #29
    The fact that MoP is remembered so fondly is proof that world-building and lore carry an expansion and the average player cares about them.

    The fact that people would rather joke that they've never heard about any Shadowlands is proof that trash world-destroying and trash lore can be a worthy reason to unsubscribe for the average player.
    The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons... and lured even the titans' own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed... to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us... changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world... and defend the Alliance!

  10. #30
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    For all i care, blizzard could remove all dungeons, raids and pvp.

    I am here for the WORLD of warcraft. not the instances of warcraft.

    All the stories that got put behind raids and dungeons should be in the outside world.

    Heck, if blizzard wouldn't waste so much time on raids und dungeons and pointless gear grind systems, WoW could have become a great sandbox of stories and content everyone can enjoy.

    The sweaty wanna-be hardcore crowd is relentless and can never be satisfied. And almost all of the problems in the WoW community stem from that sweaty crowd. They push hard and that has an influence on every other aspect and the devs have to bend to their whims whenever something is made.

    Covenants could have been cool if people just wouldn't be so sweaty about a bit of player power, hero talents can be cool if people just take it as it is, a nice veneer for their class and a gameplay change, instead of sweaty calculating what is "best".

    For all i care all the sweaty player can have a grey box without any textures, lore or anything in it, where they can sweat for the rest of their lives.

  11. #31
    What Fitsu wrote is 100% my experience after Wotlk. I never met lore people, fantasy theme orientated players etc. Hell, I never met anyone that reads quest text anymore, not gonna lie.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Enrif View Post
    Heck, if blizzard wouldn't waste so much time on raids und dungeons and pointless gear grind systems, WoW could have become a great sandbox of stories and content everyone can enjoy.
    It used to be, at least to me, up until WoD. (And the pop culture references were an added blast.)

    I should wonder if there should be a separate forum here for fan-fiction...

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apatrida View Post
    What Fitsu wrote is 100% my experience after Wotlk. I never met lore people, fantasy theme orientated players etc. Hell, I never met anyone that reads quest text anymore, not gonna lie.
    Hello, you met me. Perhaps also visit one of the RP servers that are not MoonGuard. There are many of us who actually care about the lore, the world, the aesthetic of warcraft.

  14. #34
    There are a lot of different playstyles in wow. You seem to have met only a few of them, and i mean no disprespect but this can greatly skew your view of the playerbase.

    There's a great number of players who will never set foot in raids or non leveling dungeons. There's those who consider transmog runs the highlight of their game and the mogs they get the most exciting reward. There's people for which outdoor content is key, those who want solo mage-tower like challenges, and yet others who want an epic feeling solo questline and the game dies or lives for them based on how exciting some questline boss felt (no matter how trivial it was to actually beat in decent gear). Yet other care absolutely nothing for pve and spend all their wow time on arenas, battlegrounds, or both. I'm not even getting into pet battlers.

    The thing is, you're unlikely to meet any of those varied playstyles if you don't partake in them yourselves, and this can skew your view a lot to think they aren't a big part of the playerbase. That isn't reality, and wow would lose a huge deal if it forsook any of these varied playstyles, but it can seem differently due to the echo chambers we all live in.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Which is exactly what happened, though.

    What annoyed me the most about covenants was, that you had to choose one and use it for every spec. Which is the same BS Azerite powers was and the same BS Legion artifacts and Legendaries were. Our classes have 3 specs and the past 3 expansions made it impossible/very hard to play more than one for the first half of the expansion.
    I bet it happened. But for how many people? I wonder if we have numbers on that? Yeah, 100% gurantee it happened if you were a mythic raider, or wanted to dominate the raiding on your server or when you were pushing mythic keys.....

    ...and then how many are there who really just play for laughs, for RP, for class fantasy etc - I am certainly among those.

  16. #36
    The group that has the biggest issue with stuff is people in the middle, which is kind of where I'd put myself. Meaning that while I don't care about the "lore," per se, I do care about theme.

    In shadowlands, mindgames was the coolest ability to me and fit priest as the "psychic" spec. Unfortunately, it was garbage outside of pvp. And as someone who also wants to do reasonably competitive content and max out gear each patch, I never felt like I could use it.

    I imagine there are actually quite a few players in this position. I have the same issue with specs - I only like marks hunter and affliction lock, for example, which in practice barely means I play those alts because those two specs (especially aff) are usually bottom tier.

    Sometimes the difference is small enough you can just suck it up, but that's harder to do in larger group content like raids where you are effectively wasting everyone else's time by intentionally gimping yourself. Some people are too oblivious or selfish to care, but I'm not.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    But these issues mentioned on forums just seem... Fake compared to when you interact with people in the game. I've never played with someone who cares about the lore, every single person I've played with just picked the talents icy-veins tells them to pick and then never looks at that page again so it doesn't matter what it looks like nobody is picking a friggin hero talent because they wanna be like some king dwarf, cinematics are fun to watch but they don't impact the experience of anyone I know and I don't know a single person who cares what colour their arrow is or what the ability is called
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Sounds like you might be unaware of your own confirmation bias most of all, but things like lore are more subtle and can fly under the radar, especially in common conversation.

    Lore is like the stitchwork that keeps the world from unravelling; why would you talk about stitchwork?
    Most people are rather bad at verbalising their complaints and will just go "Game is bad" and maybe parrot some popular talking point they don't even fully comprehend.
    But if a previously fitting garment now looks bad and you can't put your finger on it it is oftenthe stitchwork that is coming undone.

    Remember, lore consistency is vital to immersion.
    Bolded the important parts, but they highlights certain salient aspects of the issues at hand.

    First, the OP: using the people actively playing the game as your sample base has an inherent bias. Biggest issue is that using just what people in the game say is that you don't get the opinions of people who have left the game. It's one of the issues I have with the official Blizz forums, as they don't really allow reliable feedback from people who have left the game and want to come back or wish to offer why they left the game... which should be one of their main goals when it comes to feedback. Basically, if all you have are the opinions/perceptions of people who are actively playing the game, those are generally people who are happy with the state of the game... which will likely have a disconnect with what you hear from places that allow the voices of people who have left the game. If all you talk to are people actively playing the game, there's a high chance they think it's all sunshine and rainbows. While there are other biases involved (such as most people are pretty silent about these sort of issues), this one is pretty easy to see.

    For the second post: Yes, people tend to be reeeeeeally bad at giving a good, precise reason why they left the game or when it comes to issues with the game that they don't care for. While I can break down point-by-point all the issues I have with WoW to the point it would be a massive post, most people have sort of a vague idea at best. It's not uncommon to see people say they quit WoW because they were bored or it didn't feel fun anymore, but breaking down and pinpointing what evoked such feelings is beyond them. Heck, it's not uncommon that people identify a cause for why they left the game but it's actually not the correct reason they left when you dig into their actual thoughts.

    Now here's my view of things: everyone's going to have their own opinions, but I feel that many issues boil down to some fundamental flaws with the game (going full dive into those are another thread). However, there's a problem: Blizz will have to ruffle some feathers to fix such flaws, because people actively playing the game are either institutionalized to the way things are now (or are just fine with the status quo) or they cannot see how fixing such flaws will actually lead to a better experience for them. People tend to abhor change, even if it ultimately benefits them. This is why the most common thing you'll see Blizz do to fix issues in the game is very superficial, very rarely trying to tackle directly/indirectly a fundamental flaw with the game. Part of this is due to their current design philosophy that has contributed to the state of the game, but a major part is that they don't want to potentially incur a short-term loss for a long-term gain.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2024-02-27 at 05:32 PM.
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