The problem with Hero Specs.

[Kiwifarms]

As altoholic, I just don't have time to dive deep into any "systems", so I personally don't care about them. My personal opinion - I wouldn't touch any systems. They're ok, as they're now. It's just waste of resources. And it causes constant problems. First Blizzard implement good class mechanics, then they bloat them, then they prune them, then bloat again, etc. But unfortunately they need some sort of "borrowed mechanics" to sell their boxes to players. They also need to shake class mechanics, so simcrafters and guidewriters wouldn't sit without work.

It's pure design problem. That's, what happens, when you have talent trees, you have to all +10 levels, that means +10 talent points, because you want to keep sense of progression, but you don't want players to have choice, so you add some mandatory Hero, Epic, Legendary, etc. talents.

I kind of agree... I feel like we have moved past talents for the most part. The community has set metas they use for all content with the only real exception being pvp specific talents.

I think the game would be better off if specs has complete tool kits rather then what it is now. Rearranging a few talents for cleave or single target

[Nederbelg]

You get every talent in a hero tree. They exist to change the gameplay of a spec, they're not a set and forget type of talent tree.

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One hero tree being worse than another shouldn't stop the majority of people from playing that tree if they want to be that tree. It's not going to matter in the vast majority of content.

That is not how a big chunk of the players think. Even a lot of the players who do open world only want to have the bestest power, although it matters less.
I guess they want to kill that saber 2 seconds faster.

[Shaqthefat]

That is not how a big chunk of the players think. Even a lot of the players who do open world only want to have the bestest power, although it matters less.
I guess they want to kill that saber 2 seconds faster.

Which is what makes it even sillier that people complain about being "forced" into playing meta, despite actively choosing to play meta even when they don't need to

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I think the game would be better off if specs has complete tool kits rather then what it is now. Rearranging a few talents for cleave or single target

So basically what we have right now

[Arlette]

I mean isn't this true of just specs themselves?

The highest of the highest level of players all flock to whatever is statistically the strongest specs anyway. And if you're not playing the current fotm best spec then you won't get into high end M+ or mythic raids unless you're organizing them yourself.

But that only really affects people who are doing the most cutting edge of content. Which is a fraction of a fraction of actual players.

Blizzard should not be developing their systems around what ~1000-1500 players are going to bitch and moan about instead of the rest of the playerbase who just plays what they enjoy.

So, no, they shouldn't be just cosmetic.

That isn't to say all the hero specs are good, there's absolute criticism there for several of them. But in concept the idea is great.

[Geckoo]

When you choose a spec you commit to a theme, the same thing happens with hero talents.

That is why generic themes are better than very specific ones, because generic themes allow the player to combine other elements to make their character feel like something close to their vision. Hero talents are using some race specific units as names, others have a strong theme attached to them... and that is not ideal because it puts the player in a place where they have to commit to a theme that might not match their own vision of the character.

But this is not an issue at all. Sure, they should try to avoid using race specific units as names if possible, but is not the end of the world or something that is going to corner the player into an unplayable situation. Certainly not something that should be fixed by adding 3 cosmetic choices on top of every mechanic.

My hunter is a void elf with pale skin, red eyes, legion S1 transmog, spiders as pets and some edgy title i can't remember. So my hunter has been a dark ranger for years and of course it is great to have a spec with the name to go with it, but if i end up playing sentinel or pack leader, my hunter will still be a dark ranger, because that's my vision of it and i have enough elements to make it feel that way.

You are playing an RPG, if character identity is something you care about, you'll have to use your imagination

[potis]

Blizzard should not be developing their systems around what ~1000-1500 players are going to bitch and moan about instead of the rest of the playerbase who just plays what they enjoy.

This fallacy needs to stop eventually.

They arent designing for them, the 99.9% is copying the guides braindeadlessly because thats all they know how to do in every game the last 10 years, cause thats what the gaming world has become.

Nothing stops you from playing what you want and still getting +20s done, and after the nerfs even Mythic, but lets remove Mythic from equation, AOTC and +20 is an easy mode goal that can be achieved with any talent cause the game has become this easy with all the insane amount of gear being fed left and right, assuming you actually have the skillset to play them all, which the WoW population does not, cause they cant realize 90% of WoW gameplay is knowing when to do what, and not the class you are playing at that moment.

Only people that are clueless post this stuff still in 2024.

You can see this problem specifically at all patches that have been X.3 for the last decade, SL was the most obvious one to me, Jailer globalling LFR tanks, cause they came back to the game, copied the wowhead/icy veins spec that required full tier set to be played, add the fact they cant actually play the game and voila, tank got 1 shotted, somehow and i didnt see it once, saw it happening on 10 different tanks.

[Teriz]

It's that they're locking more class fantasy behind swappable player power. Dark rangers are fucking awesome, but there's inevitably going to be a M+ fight where you need to suck it up and swap to Sentinel even if you hate them and your character is undead.

Or you can just play what you want and not worry about being bleeding edge effective? Not everyone is raiding for a world first team.

You're inevitably going to have to choose between the fantasy you like and the optimal build for your spec. That's just definitevely less fun than being able to pick the fantasy you want. These should either have minimal gameplay effects, like racials, and be locked permanently as a fundamental part of your character like race and class.... or they should just be 100% cosmetic.

That frankly sounds way worse and far more boring than what we're actually getting. Also I prefer us getting actual new talents than some goofy borrowed power stuff or a glorified glyph system.

[Woggmer]

It's pure design problem. That's, what happens, when you have talent trees, you have to add +10 levels, that means +10 talent points, because you want to keep sense of progression, but you don't want players to have choice, so you add some mandatory Hero, Epic, Legendary, etc. talents.

Ion did say that with the return of talent trees in DF, it would mean that new ones have to be added with each installment, and he goes "Well, that's a problem for the next Lead Game Designer to worry about." Even though he's gonna be stuck in that position and it'll be his job to fix the mess he started.

[Shadowferal]

They shouldn't be so tied to racial fantasy is the problem here. Them being unique and flavorful isn't.

I can't see why that'd be a concern when your big orc blood dk gets beaten up and his lunch money taken by a Gnome warrior.

[Just Passing through]

These should either have minimal gameplay effects, like racials, and be locked permanently as a fundamental part of your character like race and class.... or they should just be 100% cosmetic.

...and then we just will have threads telling us how that path is shite.

In 20 years of raiding, we pretty much allowed any specc into our raids - but yeah...if you need to make every decision in game design about the handful of cutting edge people or the ones who think they need this kind of attitude in their superbloom and world boss groups, then ofc you are right ^^

[Stormxraven]

It's that they're locking more class fantasy behind swappable player power. Dark rangers are fucking awesome, but there's inevitably going to be a M+ fight where you need to suck it up and swap to Sentinel even if you hate them and your character is undead.

You're inevitably going to have to choose between the fantasy you like and the optimal build for your spec. That's just definitevely less fun than being able to pick the fantasy you want. These should either have minimal gameplay effects, like racials, and be locked permanently as a fundamental part of your character like race and class.... or they should just be 100% cosmetic.

Whats the difference between that and current switching specs and tweaking them for multi targets or single on a fight basis though?

[Al Gorefiend]

I can't see why that'd be a concern when your big orc blood dk gets beaten up and his lunch money taken by a Gnome warrior.

Hey those gnomes can jump pretty damn high, and they always go for the neck

[Rathwell]

You're inevitably going to have to choose between the fantasy you like and the optimal build for your spec. That's just definitevely less fun than being able to pick the fantasy you want. These should either have minimal gameplay effects, like racials, and be locked permanently as a fundamental part of your character like race and class.... or they should just be 100% cosmetic.

The puzzling thing to me is that people can say things like this and then with straight face say that it's a problem with Blizzard's design, rather than the mentality of the players.

"Blizzard shouldn't introduce any fun variety to the gameplay because I'm a min/maxer and I'm going to min/max the fun out of it"

Then maybe the problem is the obsessive min/maxing? If you want to play a more fun playstyle, just eat the 3% DPS loss that comes with it. It won't make the game unplayable, I promise. It's OK to play suboptimal specs if it's more fun to you.

[Shadowferal]

Hey those gnomes can jump pretty damn high, and they always go for the neck

Just punt that punk across the zone for a zillion points of damage.

if nothing else, my revision of the game does address wee folk like goblins and gnomes...and how ridiculous it can be. If a Gnome wants to go toe-to-toe with a Tauren s/he damn well better be in a tinker mech suit.

[Sanguinerd]

That isn't a problem with the trees that's a problem with people actively choosing to play the optimal talent set ups. Every season people get KSH and AOTC playing bad specs or awkward talent builds. Playing optimally is sometimes going to just mean you don't get to play your "class fantasy". That exists in every game, this isn't unique to WoW or even just MMOs.

Yes its a people problem but this is a 20 year old game and Blizzard should know their players by now.

[Shaqthefat]

Yes its a people problem but this is a 20 year old game and Blizzard should know their players by now.

This isnt a "problem" that can get fixed. If there is a choice between two things that impact gameplay, people are always going to choose the one that is better. It doesn't matter what game it is.

[Jujudrood]

Not everyone optimizes the fun out of the game.
I would argue that, given the entire populace, that you would find more people who are sub-optimal than there are optimal.
So, in that regard, the Hero Talents can very well work out in an overall good manner.
If you feel compelled to swap from A to B for x% throughput increase, cool.
Have fun.
There will be plenty who don't.

[Zyky]

The problem with Hero Specs

They suck and they're a step backwards towards what the old talent trees were that most players hated.

[Aucald]

The only thing the Hero specs are missing in my view are incomparables - in this case, an incomparable would be a visual type of effect that changes the presentation of how your class/spec looks. In addition to offering keystone abilities and passive buffs, I think the Hero spec options should also apply marked visual effects to your character. There are a handful of these, such as the Warrior Hero talent that increases your overall size, but they seem few and far between. Examples would be Dark Rangers being surrounded by a shadowy magic effect when using their abilities, Keepers of the Grove seeing accelerated plant growth around them, Scalecommanders getting unique breath or flight effects, and so on.

[nvaelz]

I'm mostly curious how the VERY STATIC hero talent picks will coexist with the current talent tree. Like what will the impact of me playing Shadow leaning into healing talent choices while also playing Oracle look like?

Viability matters alot tho, there's plenty of reason to think that alot of these combinations will not benefit real endgame. But if they manage to tune things correctly TWW might be interesting times with more actual choice.

I've played alot of DF and I was playing alot of SL and I hated how things work, I hated that pressing CDs became more important than casting regular spells. But I still think there's potential hereafter in TWW because I feel that the big changes came in SL, evolved in DF and TWW I think will be a continuation on that CD gameplay and I hope it will be better, it might be, the end of DF has felt slightly better than the beginning.

Like there's been great balance for all specs overall in DF, some might have fallen slightly behind but there's been alot of playable specs, it feels like what's been created now the past years might grow into fruition, the main issue with how Blizzard has designed their game over time is that they rip everything apart and start over, and it takes such a long time before it becomes good, and this might be a saving grace for bad expansions, but it feels like the game won't change as much anymore, we'll see.