The problem with Hero Specs.

[El Gucaragua]

would it though?

what we have coming in the war within is "another row on the talent trees, something for us to look up icy veins or subcreation and then never think of again"
who gives a single buttery fart about that?

i mean to be fair i also don't give a single buttery fart about cosmetics or class fantasy because i'm not 12, but the point is that hero talents are just more of the same bullshit being piled on top of the bullshit that is WoW's core fundamental design flaw, and it won't actually be any different than now.

This has been the way the game is for over a decade. This is how any game with this system will always work, because there is always a "most optimal" path.

Energy is better spent understanding the interactions, why it's the best build/why your build can be more fun but worse, what talents to sacrifice for specific utility. And with Hero talents - shockingly - it'll be about which tree is better for single/cleave/aoe hopefully.

Boring and pointless take.

[Big Thanks]

IMO

If you want to be competitive...then be competitive and dont "cry" you cant be competitive by playing the "Bard, jester spec that plays the flute to buff allies" (i mean any off-meta spec by this)

Is as simple as this.

You cant blame Blizzard for not making the "Ball juggler jester sepc that specializes in woman seduction skill tree" competitive on your extremely hard content.

[Soon-TM]

The problem with these Hero specs is that they are just underwhelming. How can you get hyped at a few passives that - with a couple of exceptions - don't even provide cool cosmetics?

I mean... Yay?

[RobertMugabe]

I mean it's essentially the same issue with what race to play, what class to play, what spec to play etc.
There's always going to be a meta. Blizzard's job here isn't to avoid having meta specs, but to make all specs viable within a certain margin.

[fazaim]

Are you even playing right now? I play a lot of different classes/specs and for each one of them there are multiple viable specs to play. There may be a theoretical best in most situations but the options are nice. These new talents seem like a natural progression of this system and if Blizzard wasn't trying to marry some Class fantasy elements into them and released the same talents as an additional row on the existing talents I wager a lot of people who seem convinced these are Covenants 2.0 would shut up instantly.

This we've discussed before, me and you. And yes, I would shut up if they were added to the trees as choice nodes instead of separate additions. That's the whole point of the argument... Like, in its current form, where do we go from here come next expansion? Well, there's a tendency to just... ... ...

[Amnaught]

Whats the difference between that and current switching specs and tweaking them for multi targets or single on a fight basis though?

That tweaking your talents here is going to change your Undead Dark Ranger into a Sentinel. Totally different vibe, not the same character. It's like race changing mid raid.

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Not as a expansion feature no, they aren't...

I'm totally for class skins and more visual customisation. But on top of new talents, not instead of them.

Exactly! On top of additional talents... that can be differently flavored while still doing equivalent things.

Like, take Ashen Hallow from Shadowlands.
People who liked the playstyle of Ashen Hallow on their Paladin **had** to choose an evil vampire theme. Why would it have been so terrible to have the gameplay choice (Ashen Hallow, or Divine Toll, Vanquisher's Hammer, Blessing of the Seasons) ON TOP of the fantasy choice? As in, giving Ashen Hallow the (already ingame!) spell visual effect choice of Kyrian, Necrolord, or Night Fae? Literally throw in a reference to how covenants recreate each others spells with their own mana as the story progresses, unlocking the glyphs through Renown. Wouldve been awesome. Still would be.

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They clearly learned their lesson each class only has two branches with each tree and you can respec them on the fly. Shadowlands big fuck up was you effectively needed 3 toons of the same class if you wanted to effectively pvp,raid, and mythic plus at high levels.

They learned the wrong lesson.

They should absolutely be swappable on the fly.... gameplay-wise. Fantasy-wise, you should be quest-locked into a covenant, and that covenant earns spells in a different order but with a consistent theme.

So like at Renown 1 as a Venthyr Paladin youd get Ashen Hallow. At Renown 20 as a Kyrian Paladin, youd get "Bastion Hallow" that does the same thing but is white instead of red.

Being locked into a Covenant made it feel like a bigger deal, fantasy-wise. That part was awesome. Gettijg locked out of BIS spells was not awesome.

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They clearly learned their lesson each class only has two branches with each tree and you can respec them on the fly. Shadowlands big fuck up was you effectively needed 3 toons of the same class if you wanted to effectively pvp,raid, and mythic plus at high levels.

They learned the wrong lesson.

They should absolutely be swappable on the fly.... gameplay-wise. Fantasy-wise, you should be quest-locked into a covenant, and that covenant earns spells in a different order but with a consistent theme.

So like at Renown 1 as a Venthyr Paladin youd get Ashen Hallow. At Renown 20 as a Kyrian Paladin, youd get "Bastion Hallow" that does the same thing but is white instead of red.

Being locked into a Covenant made it feel like a bigger deal, fantasy-wise. That part was awesome. Gettijg locked out of BIS spells was not awesome. Being gameplay-punished for choosing Sentinel or Dark Ranger when you want to be the opposite is dumb.

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TBH - it's the most sustainable solution. I can only support it and I can imagine that this is the system for the next 3 expansions.

They are basicly acknowledging the player behaviour. They are not trying to solve anything. Just adding something very simple as passive skills and they will add more and more flavour over the years.

There is not a SINGLE game in the industry, where you wouldn't pick the optimal setup. Even in PoE with 1325 skills to pick from - it all boils down to the same builds. They know that.

Glyphs are the most sustainable option. Let Dark Rangers use Dark Ranger versions of Sentinel spells.

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Speccs have been like that flavorwise at least since Legion, so this is nothing new.

And mechanically there has always been a better class, specc, build, etc.

Also it isn't even out yet, so maybe let them finish it before claiming it to be broken.

Spec should be locked permanently per character, too :P

[Guyviroth]

Looking at it all from a step back, I like the idea of tying certain spec playstyles to Hero talent trees. But some questions leave it in a bad light for me:

1) Many of the Hero talents reference a talent/ability in the class/spec talent tree; how far down will these be in TWWs talent tree, and will we have to spend points on random filler to reach those talents?

This was something that was brought up recently in the blue post for the Colossus Hero tree for warriors, where a lot of it referenced Shockwave. In the developer's note for it, they stated that Shockwave will be easier to take. Hopefully we will see similar things for other classes, such as Wake of Ashes being moved up the talent tree for Retribution Paladins (As a Paladin main, I will be using them for examples).

2) Will every Hero talent tree be viable in all forms of gameplay and situations without feeling outclassed by its alternative?

In terms of DPS, I would like each Hero talent tree to be able to respectfully perform in ST, AoE and Cleave situations effectively without any trade-off inside of itself. For example, Ret Paladins currently must delve into straight ST or AoE, diminishing one side over the other, otherwise they'll perform pretty badly in both areas if they try to hybridize. Looking at both Templar and Herald trees, there seems to be promise that they can both perform well in both situations. What I don't want to see is that Templar becomes the AoE tree, while Herald becomes the ST tree, or vice-versa. It will be down to tuning, I guess.

[threads]

the decision to put all these hero specs inbetween 2 other specs and try to make them work just sounds like a disaster to me. they should have just settled on 1 hero spec per class and make it a normal 4th spec, especially because most of them sound like generic filler. why do hunters need pack leader when we have beast master? how do shamans not have a shadow hunter vol'jin spec? wth is a spellslinger?

[HansOlo]

That tweaking your talents here is going to change your Undead Dark Ranger into a Sentinel. Totally different vibe, not the same character. It's like race changing mid raid.

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Exactly! On top of additional talents... that can be differently flavored while still doing equivalent things.

Like, take Ashen Hallow from Shadowlands.
People who liked the playstyle of Ashen Hallow on their Paladin **had** to choose an evil vampire theme. Why would it have been so terrible to have the gameplay choice (Ashen Hallow, or Divine Toll, Vanquisher's Hammer, Blessing of the Seasons) ON TOP of the fantasy choice? As in, giving Ashen Hallow the (already ingame!) spell visual effect choice of Kyrian, Necrolord, or Night Fae? Literally throw in a reference to how covenants recreate each others spells with their own mana as the story progresses, unlocking the glyphs through Renown. Wouldve been awesome. Still would be.

- - - Updated - - -



They learned the wrong lesson.

They should absolutely be swappable on the fly.... gameplay-wise. Fantasy-wise, you should be quest-locked into a covenant, and that covenant earns spells in a different order but with a consistent theme.

So like at Renown 1 as a Venthyr Paladin youd get Ashen Hallow. At Renown 20 as a Kyrian Paladin, youd get "Bastion Hallow" that does the same thing but is white instead of red.

Being locked into a Covenant made it feel like a bigger deal, fantasy-wise. That part was awesome. Gettijg locked out of BIS spells was not awesome.

- - - Updated - - -



They learned the wrong lesson.

They should absolutely be swappable on the fly.... gameplay-wise. Fantasy-wise, you should be quest-locked into a covenant, and that covenant earns spells in a different order but with a consistent theme.

So like at Renown 1 as a Venthyr Paladin youd get Ashen Hallow. At Renown 20 as a Kyrian Paladin, youd get "Bastion Hallow" that does the same thing but is white instead of red.

Being locked into a Covenant made it feel like a bigger deal, fantasy-wise. That part was awesome. Gettijg locked out of BIS spells was not awesome. Being gameplay-punished for choosing Sentinel or Dark Ranger when you want to be the opposite is dumb.

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Glyphs are the most sustainable option. Let Dark Rangers use Dark Ranger versions of Sentinel spells.

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Spec should be locked permanently per character, too :P

Glyphs actually sounds really good and sustainable.

Now that I think - they could do a few class reworks and just add a comphrensive glyph system(similar to Dragon customization - cosmetic ability revamp). And I think that would make everybody very happy. I don't see hero talents much more different than tier sets(it's good - but it needs the cherry).

[Shorus]

The problem is that a lot of the base spec trees aren't even fleshed out for a lot of specs. I'd much preferred they take the time to do that before introducing more talents. They still may yet have that in process, but I'm not holding my breath.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

They should pull the RIPChord on Hero Talents. These are nothing but Shadowlands trees mixed in with Dragonflight's. You can't choose what you want to play because one of the 3 will out DPS the other making it even more difficult to balance. Instead they should've updated the spell visuals but I guess that's just too simple for the complexity of the minds at Blizzard

[Teriz]

Gotta say, I'm quite pleased with the Evoker hero trees. Great way to integrate the concepts of the HotS dragon heroes.

However, that Shado-Pan hero tree is a really big letdown. I was really hoping for more "Ninja"-based concepts.

[Nymrohd]

I just hope the balancing is less than abysmal. Looking at them for some of the specs I play there are clear cases were I will have to switch between hero talents depending on content because e.g. one is just far superior for AoE.

[Stormxraven]

Its the same, you press different buttons but your role is the same. complaining about your character feeling different well thats a you problem its not an issue with the game and it doesnt mean anything is wrong with just that your being fussy

[Lynexia]

It's that they're locking more class fantasy behind swappable player power. Dark rangers are fucking awesome, but there's inevitably going to be a M+ fight where you need to suck it up and swap to Sentinel even if you hate them and your character is undead.

You're inevitably going to have to choose between the fantasy you like and the optimal build for your spec. That's just definitevely less fun than being able to pick the fantasy you want. These should either have minimal gameplay effects, like racials, and be locked permanently as a fundamental part of your character like race and class.... or they should just be 100% cosmetic.

Have you ever thought about just not doing what's "optimal"?

Seriously just try it and see how little difference it makes to your overall experience of the game. I have never in my entire wow playtime ever had an optimal build, but I still do high keys, still do mythic raiding, still smash on healing and DPS meters..... The difference between different specs and individual talents is literally negligible at best and non-existent at worst... Usually the people who make these "optimal" builds just go with their own bias and preferences anyway.

Playing games in a way that YOU enjoy will actually probably net you not only a more fun play experience but in addition to that people playing something they enjoy usually actually do better playing that than the optimal builds.

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would it though?

what we have coming in the war within is "another row on the talent trees, something for us to look up icy veins or subcreation and then never think of again"
who gives a single buttery fart about that?

i mean to be fair i also don't give a single buttery fart about cosmetics or class fantasy because i'm not 12, but the point is that hero talents are just more of the same bullshit being piled on top of the bullshit that is WoW's core fundamental design flaw, and it won't actually be any different than now.

Your post is entirely invalidated by the fact that you use icy veins which has been proven to be crap for years now. *cringe*

[Triceron]

Have you ever thought about just not doing what's "optimal"?

It's not good to sacrifice player power for RP if the game is supposed to promote 'how you want to play'. I want to play as a non sucky Forsake Dark Ranger and a non sucky Night Elf Sentinel. If the game is improperly balanced where one becomes an obvious meta and the other isn't (like some Spec choices already suffer from) then it's going to be a problem. The 'play how you want' style doesn't really apply if you're a meta player who enjoys RP.

If it were a set of customizations that could be applied tp any spec, that would be far less intrusive. Ooen ended customizations like Dark Ranger race customization for all races would be a better alternative.

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Have you ever thought about just not doing what's "optimal"?

It's not good to sacrifice player power for RP if the game is supposed to promote 'how you want to play'. I want to play as a non sucky Forsake Dark Ranger and a non sucky Night Elf Sentinel. If the game is improperly balanced where one becomes an obvious meta and the other isn't (like some Spec choices already suffer from) then it's going to be a problem. The 'play how you want' style doesn't really apply if you're a meta player who enjoys RP.

If it were a set of customizations that could be applied tp any spec, that would be far less intrusive. Ooen ended customizations like Dark Ranger race customization for all races would be a better alternative.

[Stormxraven]

There is no problem with them, not yet. They arent even released yet not out for testing so no one can possibly know how they will end up. To worry about it now is futile and a waste of effort

[Jolly Roger]

It's that they're locking more class fantasy behind swappable player power. Dark rangers are fucking awesome, but there's inevitably going to be a M+ fight where you need to suck it up and swap to Sentinel even if you hate them and your character is undead.

You're inevitably going to have to choose between the fantasy you like and the optimal build for your spec. That's just definitevely less fun than being able to pick the fantasy you want. These should either have minimal gameplay effects, like racials, and be locked permanently as a fundamental part of your character like race and class.... or they should just be 100% cosmetic.

This is the same argument ppl had in favor of the covenant lock
"There's no choice one will be required" then in reality nobody cares

[Flame6]

The problem with hero specs is they're just talents with a big name and big hype behind them. Most of them are boring and don't actually change how the class plays or feels.

[Relapses]

I keep seeing the same arguments that Blizzard needs to choose a lane on either player power or cosmetic fantasy and I'm over here pulling a Dora the Explorer, "Why not both?"

And ultimately I'm pretty sure that's Blizzard's goal -- people just have a bunch of baggage from how bad they fucked up Covenants.