The problem with Hero Specs.

[PenguinChan]

The problem with hero specs is they're just talents with a big name and big hype behind them. Most of them are boring and don't actually change how the class plays or feels.

For now, it seems that way. But we don't know if the hero talents will be the future 'progression' from expansion to expansion. IE: They slowly expand the additional talent trees so that over-time the differences between each one start to broaden and expand. Think old-school FF job advancements or any kind of eastern game that has evolutions.

I could see it happening, slow and steady additions vs major revamps and squishing everything.

I keep seeing the same arguments that Blizzard needs to choose a lane on either player power or cosmetic fantasy and I'm over here pulling a Dora the Explorer, "Why not both?"

Question is: What is the player power fantasy going to be in the future? We can only add so much onto the current systems before it becomes somewhat redundant / confusing for normal players. Are we going to move onto a Diablo-style horde grinder with a stronger importance on variety and playing the way you want? Are we going to push harder into specific roles more than just dungeon's? Etc. etc.

Delves might answer this question once we see them in action.

[Lynexia]

It's not good to sacrifice player power for RP if the game is supposed to promote 'how you want to play'. I want to play as a non sucky Forsake Dark Ranger and a non sucky Night Elf Sentinel. If the game is improperly balanced where one becomes an obvious meta and the other isn't (like some Spec choices already suffer from) then it's going to be a problem. The 'play how you want' style doesn't really apply if you're a meta player who enjoys RP.

If it were a set of customizations that could be applied tp any spec, that would be far less intrusive. Ooen ended customizations like Dark Ranger race customization for all races would be a better alternative.

This game cannot be balanced without complete homogeny....

This is a primarily PLAYER issue. Fact is if you are so stuck on being optimal that you wont sacrifice a tiny bit of dps (which, lets be really real, 99% of players aren't even getting the most out of the "optimal" build) that's a you problem. I have always been a top end raider when I have player wow seriously, and I have NEVER forced myself to play something "optimal" over something I enjoy. And let me tell you... it almost NEVER makes a visible impact on meters.

If hero talents were ONLY cosmetic.... Just.. like why have them at all... most players wouldn't even bother with them... The whole cosmetic only thing is so mundane and stupid.

If you don't wanna to play as a sucky spec... Stop sucking at the game... pro-tip.

[Triceron]

If hero talents were ONLY cosmetic.... Just.. like why have them at all... most players wouldn't even bother with them... The whole cosmetic only thing is so mundane and stupid.

If you don't wanna to play as a sucky spec... Stop sucking at the game... pro-tip.

The other way to deal with it is by not designing the game to be tuned around hitting high dps benchmarks for content.

So many other MMOs merely deal with this be having flexible compositions and allowing for plenty of wiggle room to complete encounters through actual raid mechanics, instead of performing strict rotations. Part of WoW's problem is also the identity its created for itself which is intending to build the end game around classes and specs that all perform within 1% margin of the top builds, and anything outside the meta is frowned upon. Don't pretend Blizzard has no control over this, like its all the players fault, when the game is designed to be this way.


Think of this similarly to how Blizzard has REMOVED player power from things like Professions and Racials, instead of having the meta built around stacking certain races for their racials and having Engineering on Rogues to pad their DPS with saronite bombs. Professions and Racials aren't built around player power any more. Hero Talents are purely built around player power. That's where the big difference lies.

It literally does not matter what race or what professions you take in X patch of Y expansion, their impact on the meta is quite insignificant today. It will absolutely matter what Spec you play and what Hero Talents you have chosen, and depending on how Blizzard happens to balance those Specs and Hero Talents, their optimal performance can be wildly varied from patch to patch, from expansion to expansion.

And it's not a matter of 'sucking' any more than you can just say 'play the moba character you like and stop sucking' like it's some kind of practical solution. It's laughable.

That is why I would want player power removed from Hero Talents completely. If they should be represented, it should be on the level of professions or racials are treated today, because that has been the most successful way to treat flexible customizations (aside from actual cosmetics, like barbershop and transmogs) without being affected by the meta.

[meheez]

Its a problem for roleplayers. Don't see how its any different to now. You have builds and thats it.

[Lynexia]

The other way to deal with it is by not designing the game to be tuned around hitting high dps benchmarks for content.

So many other MMOs merely deal with this be having flexible compositions and allowing for plenty of wiggle room to complete encounters through actual raid mechanics, instead of performing strict rotations. Part of WoW's problem is also the identity its created for itself which is intending to build the end game around classes and specs that all perform within 1% margin of the top builds, and anything outside the meta is frowned upon. Don't pretend Blizzard has no control over this, like its all the players fault, when the game is designed to be this way.


Think of this similarly to how Blizzard has REMOVED player power from things like Professions and Racials, instead of having the meta built around stacking certain races for their racials and having Engineering on Rogues to pad their DPS with saronite bombs. Professions and Racials aren't built around player power any more. Hero Talents are purely built around player power. That's where the big difference lies.

It literally does not matter what race or what professions you take in X patch of Y expansion, their impact on the meta is quite insignificant today. It will absolutely matter what Spec you play and what Hero Talents you have chosen, and depending on how Blizzard happens to balance those Specs and Hero Talents, their optimal performance can be wildly varied from patch to patch, from expansion to expansion.

And it's not a matter of 'sucking' any more than you can just say 'play the moba character you like and stop sucking' like it's some kind of practical solution. It's laughable.

That is why I would want player power removed from Hero Talents completely. If they should be represented, it should be on the level of professions or racials are treated today, because that has been the most successful way to treat flexible customizations (aside from actual cosmetics, like barbershop and transmogs) without being affected by the meta.

The game has literally never cared what spec or race you are lmao. This is a player created problem, currently all specs are viable within 1% of each other damage wise... You don't need to spec a certain way to play well. The idea of min-maxing is fine but it isn't mandatory for end game anymore and hasn't been for a really long time.

The reality is you are imagining this need for optimal play, it doesn't actually exist in reality. You can play however you want and the only thing that holds you back from doing end game content is your own ability to play the game well.

It doesn't matter how much blizzard balances anything there will always be a best spec, but you don't actually HAVE to play that spec. I know that you have it in your head that you do have to to be able to do high end content but you don't I am living proof of this, I play a holy pally and I refuse to use the blessing of summer talent, or the lights hammer talent... Those talents are either tedious to use, boring to use, or feel crap to use for me. I don't care if they do more heals per second because overall the difference in the healing between those talents and others are so marginal that it's not even noticeable.

Same goes for my elemental shaman. and Sub rogue. I don't take abilities that are going to just be bloat on my bars for a marginal increase in damage, I rather just take abilities that I find fun and roll with it...

Guess what all my dps characters have AT LEAST ahead of the curve for every dragonflight season.

What is really happening here is that YOU personally feel pressured to min-max because there's a part of you that believes that it's more important than your enjoyment of the game. I know for a fact, already what hero spec I am playing on my paladin... Nobody will be able to convince me to change for "better healing" because I'll just say "No I don't enjoy it, if you want me to change I'll just change guild because I play what I enjoy not what is the best at any given time"

[Triceron]

I'll just change guild because I play what I enjoy not what is the best at any given time"

Sums up the very problem I'm pointing out, only difference is you don't see it as an inconvenience to yourself and are projecting that some kind of a standard.

You're trying very hard to convince me the problem isn't real because the game feels balanced to you (within 1%, we can both agree). But you also acknowledge that the expectations of other players affecting you is absolutely real, including to the point of having to change guilds if needed.

Let me ask you, would you think you'd ever have to realistically change guilds because of what profession or race you picked? You and I both know there are different expectations between Class/Spec/Hero Talent choices and how they those expectations have tangible effects on the community, vs cosmetic options that literally will not have those same problems.

you don't actually HAVE to play that spec

From my perspective, the spec is the class. Blizzard doesn't do class balance any more like they used to. It's all spec balance now, and the identity of your class is based on the spec more than the class itself.

My problem with specs is they're bound to gameplay necessity. I'm not personally opposed to playing different specs, but changing specs because the meta shifted can really really suck.

I have two Druid characters on different servers. One built around Balance/Resto, one built Feral/Guardian. i intended yo keep em separate so I can play all aspects and get a full Druid experience. But there had been cases where specs were performing so poorly, they both ended up taking the same specs purely out of PUG expectations. You hit a wall with what groups are available to you.

And no, I don't usually fall back to the 'good guild' discussion as any tangible solution. It's an easy out for any discussion. You facing toxicity in LFR? Or maybe you are the one who wants to be toxic in your groups? Maybe you suck at the game and can't progress? Find a guild that lets you do whatever you want. It's such a miracle solution that you could literally apply it as a solution for any social problem you can think of.

Doesn't really change the fact some of the problems with game design are tangibly real. And while not everything is a problem that needs to be solved, the design of Hero Talents is definitely in the wrong direction IMO, because the RP value of the Hero Talent far outweighs the necessity for their gameplay.

Min maxing matters in both personal enjoyment (play optimally, play the best your class can offer) and other people's expectations from the meta (difficulty joining pugs, certain Hero Talents not viable for the PVP meta). There is no reason to avoid it just for the sake of maintaining RP. IMO choosing Hero identity should not affect player power; it should be more of a core decision like what Race you pick where your choice is insignificant to the meta, not driven by it.

Again, we don't really have these issues with Profession and Race options. And content wise, this may not affect a majority of low-to-mid level content, but it does affect higher competitive content. It exists with Class and Spec. Hero Talents are bound to that system, and is FURTHER niche by having certain options limited by spec, which is even more limited than Covenant Options were in Shadowlands. And we already know how poorly it was executed in terms of RP identity. There were some comboes that simply didn't work, weren't balanced right, or just didn't fulfill the right kind of fantasy. And the problem I see is in building any type of RP identity around a Player Power system.

[Ielenia]

There is no problem with them, not yet. They arent even released yet not out for testing so no one can possibly know how they will end up. To worry about it now is futile and a waste of effort

There is at least one problem with them from where I'm standing, but they're unrelated to what the OP said. I think one big problem with the hero specs is two-fold: Blizzard called them "evergreen features", yet I fail to see what is considered to be "evergreen" about the hero specs that couldn't apply in the same way to the current talents. The second related issue is that what is going to happen from now on as new expansions come along? Will the normal talent tree just stop growing, and instead we'll just keep getting more and more passives in the Hero Talent trees, or what?

[Lynexia]

Sums up the very problem I'm pointing out, only difference is you don't see it as an inconvenience to yourself and are projecting that some kind of a standard.

You're trying very hard to convince me the problem isn't real because the game feels balanced to you (within 1%, we can both agree). But you also acknowledge that the expectations of other players affecting you is absolutely real, including to the point of having to change guilds if needed.

Literally finding a guild is the hardest thing I've had to do in this game. I ended up having to faction AND server change to find a guild that fit me. But that doesn't mean I would sacrifice my enjoyment of the game for them. I pay for wow, I will play it how I want to play it. I know that I'm good at the game, I do mythic raiding and kill stuff. We aren't some top 500 guild or anything but we go ok and I am satisfied with my current progress in wow and don't really think doing the "optimal" build would change much, it certainly wouldn't allow us to kill mythic smolderon suddenly.

And no, I wasn't specifically saying that any guild has ever tried to force the optimal build. I was merely saying that IF they ever did that I would swap guild. Quite frankly as long as you pull your weight in raid no guild is realitically going to boot you from the group.

Let me ask you, would you think you'd ever have to realistically change guilds because of what profession or race you picked? You and I both know there are different expectations between Class/Spec/Hero Talent choices and how they those expectations have tangible effects on the community, vs cosmetic options that literally will not have those same problems.

No and I have never in 15 years of wow ever encountered this issue. This is an issue that has never and will never exist and will also not exist for hero talents.

From my perspective, the spec is the class. Blizzard doesn't do class balance any more like they used to. It's all spec balance now, and the identity of your class is based on the spec more than the class itself.

My problem with specs is they're bound to gameplay necessity. I'm not personally opposed to playing different specs, but changing specs because the meta shifted can really really suck.

I have two Druid characters on different servers. One built around Balance/Resto, one built Feral/Guardian. i intended yo keep em separate so I can play all aspects and get a full Druid experience. But there had been cases where specs were performing so poorly, they both ended up taking the same specs purely out of PUG expectations. You hit a wall with what groups are available to you.

And no, I don't usually fall back to the 'good guild' discussion as any tangible solution. It's an easy out for any discussion. You facing toxicity in LFR? Or maybe you are the one who wants to be toxic in your groups? Maybe you suck at the game and can't progress? Find a guild that lets you do whatever you want. It's such a miracle solution that you could literally apply it as a solution for any social problem you can think of.

Doesn't really change the fact some of the problems with game design are tangibly real. And while not everything is a problem that needs to be solved, the design of Hero Talents is definitely in the wrong direction IMO, because the RP value of the Hero Talent far outweighs the necessity for their gameplay.

Min maxing matters in both personal enjoyment (play optimally, play the best your class can offer) and other people's expectations from the meta (difficulty joining pugs, certain Hero Talents not viable for the PVP meta). There is no reason to avoid it just for the sake of maintaining RP. IMO choosing Hero identity should not affect player power; it should be more of a core decision like what Race you pick where your choice is insignificant to the meta, not driven by it.

Again, we don't really have these issues with Profession and Race options. And content wise, this may not affect a majority of low-to-mid level content, but it does affect higher competitive content. It exists with Class and Spec. Hero Talents are bound to that system, and is FURTHER niche by having certain options limited by spec, which is even more limited than Covenant Options were in Shadowlands. And we already know how poorly it was executed in terms of RP identity. There were some comboes that simply didn't work, weren't balanced right, or just didn't fulfill the right kind of fantasy. And the problem I see is in building any type of RP identity around a Player Power system.

You're wrong this doesn't happen. Unless your build is just straight up picking all the dog water talents nobody says boo about peoples specs specially in LFR lmao.

[Triceron]

You're wrong this doesn't happen. Unless your build is just straight up picking all the dog water talents nobody says boo about peoples specs specially in LFR lmao.

No one is talking about this affecting LFR. If you think min maxing is only relative to LFR level content then you aren't really part of the same conversation on who and what this really effects. Feel free to stay in the LFR level progression, where no one will ask you to respec and you don't need to worry about changing your guild for that either.

No and I have never in 15 years of wow ever encountered this issue. This is an issue that has never and will never exist and will also not exist for hero talents.

That depends on what content level you are in competitive PVE or PVP.

Like people even say that most mythic progress doesn't matter for what spec you bring until you get 27+. So if you're talking about LFR as your example, then yeah it doesn't matter because there's no need to min max at all at lower tier progression content. That isn't even part of the min max conversation.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

This is a player created problem, currently all specs are viable within 1% of each other damage wise... "

While all specs are viable in most content, the 1% number is complete bunk lol

Sort however you want on whatever fight you want: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...t=75&boss=2677

There is also a significant cumulative effect that people don't talk about enough. One person in your raid doing X instead of Y isn't a big deal, but when 10 people are doing it, it is.

The same applies to things about your character. Everything is a multiplier. Wrong enchants, wrong stats, wrong spec, wrong X, wrong Y - any individual one isn't a big deal, but put together they become very significant. And again, do that for everything in the raid.

Personally, I play an often mediocre spec, marks. I try to compensate for this by doing everything else "correctly." Most of the time, that's enough to feel super powerful because the majority of people are pretty bad at the game. But once you play with other people at (or above) your skill this stuff also gets more noticeable and frustrating.

[Enrif]

While all specs are viable in most content, the 1% number is complete bunk lol

Sort however you want on whatever fight you want: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...t=75&boss=2677

I find this graphs always fascinating. People can see the same graph and get vastly different impression from them.

For example, this site, warcraftlogs uses a client to gather the data it shows. So, it already fails as qualitative data source, since many many people don't upload to warcraft logst (example: me), and it is probably used by people who aim for the highest percentile in the first place, skewing any data that is caused by personal performance, versus basic class balance. And even then, there is user error in uploading the data. If i look at all percentiles i get for 4 specs data that goes nearly to 0, which shouldn't be possible unless someone is just standing around doing 1 skill once, then nothing else. Next is things like augmentations, that i think, is still to this day not properly accounted for in these graphs, and their dps is more reliant on the dps of the people who they buff.
And then we have to understand things like 99th percentile, 95th percentile, 90th percentile. For 99th percentile frost mage is the best, but for 95th it is outlaw rouge, and 70th percentile it is fury warrior.
And this can be going further with item level discrepancies, what bosses, what difficulty setting.

So, the assumption that blizzard doesn't balance within 1% is as murky as the argument that blizzard does achieve this. We simple can not, qualitatively and quantitively proof either, without knowing the base assumptions of blizzard for balancing decisions.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I find this graphs always fascinating. People can see the same graph and get vastly different impression from them.

For example, this site, warcraftlogs uses a client to gather the data it shows. So, it already fails as qualitative data source, since many many people don't upload to warcraft logst (example: me), and it is probably used by people who aim for the highest percentile in the first place, skewing any data that is caused by personal performance, versus basic class balance. .

I mean, yes it is biased by people who upload logs, but that is nearly all mythic guilds, even bad ones. It's also not particularly relevant in this context. The results are far better than sims because this is real world data from the best players in the world.

Augmentation is definitely not perfectly tracked, people have been complaining about that all expansion.

Regardless, the only point being made is to say the claim that "specs are 1% of each other" is obvious nonsense. The game is in one of the more balanced states ever but this still isn't true. On top that, talents aren't anywhere close to that close to one another either.

So, will picking the "wrong" hero spec make something unplayable? Of course not. But it will be yet another multiplier on the board, along with spec and all the other things I mentioned.