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  1. #1

    Post Splitting BGs into Rated and non-Rated is a morbid mistake.

    The way it works now: a new player entering Rated for the first time will face immediately at least semi-skilled people and be completely obliterated; if everything was Rated then the new player would first enter a BG with new or bad players; only if they managed to be great would they manage to escape that rating (and premades would cause no serious issues since they would easily jump rank too and it could be an account-wide thing too).

    Perhaps it would even solve the issue of Arena being morbidly hard for new players; nobody would be able to enter an "easy mode"; but that in turn would mean the great players would be completely gone from the arena of a new player so the new player would face either new players or bad players when they first enter arena (given it's not the first hour of the season at least).

  2. #2
    BG solo shuffle might fix that somewhat, like it did for arena.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    The way it works now: a new player entering Rated for the first time will face immediately at least semi-skilled people and be completely obliterated;
    No?

    I mean, it's obvious that you will meet more skilled players in rated BG. But that's the point? To actually learn from mistakes and get better?

    Even if so, then it's the newbies problem that they didn't learn how to play Rated-BGs before entering.
    You cannot really blame the MMR because some players decided to hop into rated games before actually learning how to play properly. They have no one else to blame but themselves.

    Same thing for arena, you are actually getting opponents according to your MMR and that's totally fine.
    You did great against the other comp which had higher MMR? Your next opponents are stronger(with higher MMR).
    You failed miserably? Your next opponents will have much lower MMR.

    It's simple and it works.

  4. #4
    Does someone pay you to endlessly whine about some aspect of the game?
    Grow up and play something else.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    it's obvious that you will meet more skilled players in rated BG. But that's the point? To actually learn from mistakes and get better?
    .
    But why separate them? If you're good you will raise in rank and face good players anyway and if you're bad at BGs you would drop rank and face easy games again.

    Right now there is an unnecessary gap of "easy games -> easy games -> enter rated: BOOM: immediately much harder games" for no good reason at all.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    But why separate them? If you're good you will raise in rank and face good players anyway and if you're bad at BGs you would drop rank and face easy games again.
    Why? Because sometimes people just want to have fun instead of doing something competitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Right now there is an unnecessary gap of "easy games -> easy games -> enter rated: BOOM: immediately much harder games" for no good reason at all.
    I'd say that right now it's something like:

    Chill game -> enter rated: get stronger or weaker opponent team -> next game: something closer to your actual team in terms of skill(worse team if you lost, stronger team if you won) -> cycle repeat

    Anyway, if your FIRST FEW rated games are something much harder, then that means your team is just a bunch of randoms that aren't good enough to play rated games.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    The way it works now: a new player entering Rated for the first time will face immediately at least semi-skilled people and be completely obliterated; if everything was Rated then the new player would first enter a BG with new or bad players; only if they managed to be great would they manage to escape that rating (and premades would cause no serious issues since they would easily jump rank too and it could be an account-wide thing too).

    Perhaps it would even solve the issue of Arena being morbidly hard for new players; nobody would be able to enter an "easy mode"; but that in turn would mean the great players would be completely gone from the arena of a new player so the new player would face either new players or bad players when they first enter arena (given it's not the first hour of the season at least).
    Yeah, the desperate attempts to make things "competitive" aren't healthy for the game.

    Imo they should just make all BGs rated, with the rating being absolutely private to avoid any public shame one could feel over it.

    Calculate team ratings, factor in relative performance ever so slightly and presto: No need to artificially segregate the playerbase or bar part of it from genuine gear progression over "competitivity" worries.

    To clarify: I am talking about autoqueue bgs.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    The way it works now: a new player entering Rated for the first time will face immediately at least semi-skilled people and be completely obliterated; if everything was Rated then the new player would first enter a BG with new or bad players; only if they managed to be great would they manage to escape that rating (and premades would cause no serious issues since they would easily jump rank too and it could be an account-wide thing too).

    Perhaps it would even solve the issue of Arena being morbidly hard for new players; nobody would be able to enter an "easy mode"; but that in turn would mean the great players would be completely gone from the arena of a new player so the new player would face either new players or bad players when they first enter arena (given it's not the first hour of the season at least).
    Random BGs are good to learn what objectives each BG has, to practice your class and also farm honor to get honor gear to begin. You can also fool around to do some gimmicky achievements and nobody really cares if you mess up.

    Rated BGs are more serious business and by its rated nature, you are supposed to focus on your job and teamwork.

    I don't see any issue with that. If anything, Battleground Blitz will most likely fit somewhere in between.

  9. #9
    Idk what these problems are. First of all the game is much easier for new players nowadays, and there's already MMR in place. If you're running on a fresh mmr and you get obliteraded that simply means you'll need to lose a bit before you can start winning, how do you expect the game to truly balance around your skill level? XD won't happen.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Why? Because sometimes people just want to have fun instead of doing something competitive.
    It will not be competitive. If everyone is in a ranked mode, bad performance will drop you to games with others having bad performance; right now people enter some kind of "casual" mode and do bad performance there; it restricts rated to always have at least some kind of modest performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Yeah, the desperate attempts to make things "competitive" aren't healthy for the game.

    Imo they should just make all BGs rated, with the rating being absolutely private to avoid any public shame one could feel over it.

    Calculate team ratings, factor in relative performance ever so slightly and presto: No need to artificially segregate the playerbase or bar part of it from genuine gear progression over "competitivity" worries.

    To clarify: I am talking about autoqueue bgs.
    Yes, and they shouldn't even separate the autoqueued games. That's because even if you made a premade (and you're not terrible (and you're usually not terrible in a premade)) then you'll raise in rank fast anyway so the players who play casually or badly will remain in a low rank facing similar people anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Random BGs are good to learn what objectives each BG has, to practice your class and also farm honor to get honor gear to begin. You can also fool around to do some gimmicky achievements and nobody really cares if you mess up.

    Rated BGs are more serious business and by its rated nature, you are supposed to focus on your job and teamwork.

    I don't see any issue with that. If anything, Battleground Blitz will most likely fit somewhere in between.
    That's a circular argument because you don't get the practical reality of what will happen,

    the rated games having all the players in them: means they will also have bad gameplay,

    and people with bad gameplay will drop at a rank that plays against similar low skill.

    [PS in case it isn't clear: the premades with higher skill will rarely face bad gameplay/people will low skill in that scenario: that's because the premades will quickly raise rank and only face better gameplay/people with higher skill anyway)]
    Last edited by epigramx; 2024-03-06 at 06:40 AM.

  11. #11
    I'm not sure I get the argument.

    This is part of the horizontal segmentation of most content. Some people want to try hard, some do not; sometimes the same people want to try hard, and at other times they do not. Having modes with lower stakes and expectations achieves that far better than MMR, because I can't do a "let's just have some chill BGs" session if I'm sitting at 3,000 rating and every queue I enter it's balls-to-the-wall high-performance pumping or risk descending into Elo Hell.

    Paying for the privilege of a more relaxed game mode with hard-earned rating seems like a completely counterproductive setup.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It will not be competitive. If everyone is in a ranked mode, bad performance will drop you to games with others having bad performance; right now people enter some kind of "casual" mode and do bad performance there; it restricts rated to always have at least some kind of modest performance.


    Yes, and they shouldn't even separate the autoqueued games. That's because even if you made a premade (and you're not terrible (and you're usually not terrible in a premade)) then you'll raise in rank fast anyway so the players who play casually or badly will remain in a low rank facing similar people anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -


    That's a circular argument because you don't get the practical reality of what will happen,

    the rated games having all the players in them: means they will also have bad gameplay,

    and people with bad gameplay will drop at a rank that plays against similar low skill.

    [PS in case it isn't clear: the premades with higher skill will rarely face bad gameplay/people will low skill in that scenario: that's because the premades will quickly raise rank and only face better gameplay/people with higher skill anyway)]
    And what exactly is bad on having non rated BGs for training and gearing?
    By having only rated BGs, people would be pissed that they are dragged down and losing rating because some ungeared and unexperienced will ruin their games, because they are still learning stuff...
    I fail to see any benefit of your idea. It only brings complications and current PvP does not need more problems than it already has.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It will not be competitive. If everyone is in a ranked mode, bad performance will drop you to games with others having bad performance; right now people enter some kind of "casual" mode and do bad performance there; it restricts rated to always have at least some kind of modest performance.
    But rated BGs are epitome of competitive PvP gameplay in WoW.

    If you are dropping because you had bad performance then you will play with people who have bad performance also.

    Right now you can arrange your own team yourself, which is most fairest thing you can do.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I'm not sure I get the argument.

    This is part of the horizontal segmentation of most content. Some people want to try hard, some do not; sometimes the same people want to try hard, and at other times they do not. Having modes with lower stakes and expectations achieves that far better than MMR, because I can't do a "let's just have some chill BGs" session if I'm sitting at 3,000 rating and every queue I enter it's balls-to-the-wall high-performance pumping or risk descending into Elo Hell.

    Paying for the privilege of a more relaxed game mode with hard-earned rating seems like a completely counterproductive setup.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    But rated BGs are epitome of competitive PvP gameplay in WoW.

    If you are dropping because you had bad performance then you will play with people who have bad performance also.

    Right now you can arrange your own team yourself, which is most fairest thing you can do.
    It's a simple logic:

    Step 1) You play casually or badly: you will drop in rank

    Step 2) Now you play more likely with others like that

    Step 3) If you do play better that is reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    what exactly is bad on having non rated BGs for training and gearing?
    A minuscule convenience while losing the big advantage of smoothing out the ranks; the way I describe it everyone will have a chance to gradually either raise rank or drop rank; right now there is a brutal and abrupt jump in difficulty the moment a new or inexperienced player jumps into anything rated.

    Besides: what you say CAN BE DONE BETTER; have a "casual" gamemode; however it should not have very big rewards and incentives to the point of guiding new players and inexperienced players to never enter rated (i.e. new players who do not care to "always play casual": should start at "easy rated").

    [PS to put it clearly and to reiterate: have a 'casual' mode that is more or less 'hidden or secondary' and not offered to new and inexperienced players as first-thing; that is a win-win; new and inexperienced players who do not want to "always remain at casual" will start from practically "easy rated" and if you are an experienced player who just wants to goof around: go and enter that casual mode to try stuff out for a while.]
    Last edited by epigramx; 2024-03-06 at 04:03 PM.

  15. #15
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    clearly you never entered a random BG against premade groups, at least not those people are filtered to face each other, bonus points for when it would happen before the forgiving time limits so you would either have to leave or get farmed until you werent worth any honor to them anymore.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's a simple logic:

    Step 1) You play casually or badly: you will drop in rank

    Step 2) Now you play more likely with others like that

    Step 3) If you do play better that is reversed.
    So it's just rated BG?
    Why not keep 2 options? Chill and rated? What's the problem lol

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    clearly you never entered a random BG against premade
    This scenario is covered in the thread. I said those premades will soon jump rank anyway; so you will never see them; they would only be randomly appearing for the first hours of a season.

    The key here is that EVERYONE would be in rated; that means the most casual and inexperienced players in the world too; you WILL play against bad players at the start of ranking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    So it's just rated BG?
    Why not keep 2 options? Chill and rated? What's the problem lol.
    I covered that in the next sub-reply in that main reply: the problem now is that there are big incentives/rewards to run the "casual mode" (and you usually require a premade group to even enter a rated mode which should change).

    Unfortunately that limits extremely who plays rated; as a result rated is an abrupt jump in difficulty; if even the new an inexperienced players entered rated: then rated will be extremely easy at the start of ranking and "easy mode".

    CASUAL MODE CAN STILL EXIST but mainly without much incentives and rewards; it would be mainly for goofing around and trying out stuff; that way you don't lose the advantage of ranking being gradual and starting easily.

  18. #18
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    Rated is there for when you want to try, when you want tough competition, when you want to grow in rating and reward and such.
    Non-rated is there for people to learn, to play casually, to have fun or otherwise not worry about ratings.

    There should be a learning curve, where in randoms you play against, on average, lesser skilled people, so you can refine.
    Rated is where it steps up into organized play, because being just a rando paired with other randos is not really conducive to true rated play, so you need to learn to work as a team.

    I do agree there's a stark contrast with PVP, and it's definitely much harder to get into the upper scene, but that's kind of the point.
    It's not some scripted event any random Joe WQ can jump into and have success because they read one article and watched a video.
    It's meant to be something you refine and get better at incrementally.

    In your proposal, there's just one mode, so if you wanted a chill and relaxing night to goof off with friends, your rating suffers, which means you would be less likely to want to have that chill night due to the work required to put in and get it back up.
    If you wanted to fish for achievements or just try something new, you're discouraged to do so due to the potential of rating loss because there is no "practice" anymore, just rated or bust.
    This would be taking away modes of play that I'm sure people use today, which is counterproductive to what they are trying to achieve, which is have many modes that appeal to as many people as possible.
    Turning PVP back into a "git gud or git fukt" world with no alternative would surely hurt overall participation, no?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's a simple logic:

    Step 1) You play casually or badly: you will drop in rank

    Step 2) Now you play more likely with others like that

    Step 3) If you do play better that is reversed.
    That doesn't answer my point at all.

    You're effectively removing the option for people to play casually at will.

    And I'm asking... WHY?

    Maybe someone who's at 3,000 rating doesn't want to play super seriously all the time. Maybe sometimes they just want to have some fun rounds, maybe try out something knew or whatever. What do you want them to do? Intentionally underperform in a 3,000 BG, screwing over everyone else a bunch of times until their rating drops enough that they join more casual queues? And then they have to re-earn all their rating after they're done playing chill games?

    How does that seem reasonable or better than the current system? In pretty much ANY way?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I covered that in the next sub-reply in that main reply: the problem now is that there are big incentives/rewards to run the "casual mode" (and you usually require a premade group to even enter a rated mode which should change).

    Unfortunately that limits extremely who plays rated; as a result rated is an abrupt jump in difficulty; if even the new an inexperienced players entered rated: then rated will be extremely easy at the start of ranking and "easy mode".

    CASUAL MODE CAN STILL EXIST but mainly without much incentives and rewards; it would be mainly for goofing around and trying out stuff; that way you don't lose the advantage of ranking being gradual and starting easily.
    But we have casual mode and rated mode... what else would you like to have?

    There's a rated BG already.
    I wouldn't say that it's an abrupt jump in difficulty to be honest. Maybe if you play comp stomp versus AI players. Most of the Rated BGs on low rating are almost the same as the casual ones.

    You're trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Your solution would've only made game worse.

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