2024 Election - Trump vs. Harris, important downballot

[Easo]

The circus is real, just not sure who the actual clowns are.

Trump was allowed to just hammer out bullshit, nonsense and directly damaging lies and CNN just let that happen? I am gonna ignore Biden's weird slips and tangents because wtf "it will be fact checked" *two instances of timid responses to a swathe of bullshit*.

CNN wants Trump for ratings. They are equitable in this travesty IMO, fucking deplorable. Anyone without dipshit blinkers would be voting wholly AGAINST Trump but Trump voters aren't inclined to think unfortunately. Atrocious debate management.

I see the search for the guilty has already started.

[Polgara]

Almost all of that media is international. Trump hijinks is not their bread and butter. You can absolutely level that against CNN but the rest?

You are exactly who should at least read MC, apt user handle btw.

[Mekh]

You are exactly who should at least read MC, apt user handle btw.

Too boring to them. They prefer being energetically lied to.

[Polgara]

Too boring to them. They prefer being energetically lied to.

Like, can we accept that INTERNATIONALLY there are quite a lot who would be happy to see more of the Imperialism of the US be bought down a peg, and Trump is perfect for that, and when it comes to reinforcing a narrative it's VERY easy when that narrative was already preordained. "why would international media organizations be happy about Trump?" is the same energy as "why would anyone be reporting on watergate?" Biden looked senile, we already KNOW he "looks" senile because that's the lens we get given and are forced to focus on. Focusing on that is as played as getting your 20 bucks stolen from a street grifter. Ya'll got played and are too arrogant to take the 20 dollar loss and move on, you gotta keep playing.

Eyes on paper, getting people just to even rage read your syndicate is useful. Fuck me even media outlets I trust I still, constantly, double check and find blatant disagreements/see the "rotation of the cogs" happening.

[DarkAmbient]

If there's anything we should trust, it's the same media that benefits from Trump's shithouse antics in power. Fucking hell some of you need to AT LEAST read manufacturing consent. Media tells you Trump won because it fits the narrative that Biden looked old and demented, but fuck me Trump looked worse.

Biden's job was to prove his doubters wrong, demonstrate that he's still sharp, and capably debunk the bullshit flowing out of Trump's mouth. Any honest assessment of the debate would conclude that Biden failed in those regards. The headlines are not wrong.

[Polgara]

Biden's job was to prove his doubters wrong, demonstrate that he's still sharp, and capably debunk the bullshit flowing out of Trump's mouth. Any honest assessment of the debate would conclude that Biden failed in those regards. The headlines are not wrong.

Your focus is on that, it's not on the fact that this was meant to be a fact-checked debate ATTEMPTING to reconcile two candidates policy position. You've been sucked in and aren't bright enough to figure that out. That's on you friendo.

Anyway I'm out Dawntrail dropping soon, read Manufacturing consent at the very least, and probably also dark money.

[Mekh]

Like, can we accept that INTERNATIONALLY there are quite a lot who would be happy to see more of the Imperialism of the US be bought down a peg, and Trump is perfect for that, and when it comes to reinforcing a narrative it's VERY easy when that narrative was already preordained. "why would international media organizations be happy about Trump?" is the same energy as "why would anyone be reporting on watergate?" Biden looked senile, we already KNOW he "looks" senile because that's the lens we get given and are forced to focus on. Focusing on that is as played as getting your 20 bucks stolen from a street grifter. Ya'll got played and are too arrogant to take the 20 dollar loss and move on, you gotta keep playing.

Yes but good luck explaining that to the "Yes Trump lied but at least he lied with gusto." crowd.

Biden lost this only if one's definition of "lose" is "he didn't appeal to retards without an attention span."... Which I will grant.

[gondrin]

It boggles my mind that people really focus on this silly shit. I mean, we're not voting for Carnival-Barker-in-Chief, right? I'm voting for whoever is going to do the best job for ALL the people of this country, not the person who can talk the slickest and loudest at a debate. Why do we even have debates? It's not like anyone changes their mind based on them and it's not like debating skills figure into the actual job of running a country. It's a sideshow so that networks can have something to talk about and people can try to sound smart about.

I'm voting Biden. He could crap his pants and mumble the entire debate and that ain't changing, because I trust him to enact the policies that are best for most people, as far as he is able.

And none of this is even touching the fact that Trump came off like an insane clown fighting personal grievances that stem back to him losing the last election, which clearly broke him. How many times did the moderators ask him if he would accept the election results before he gave something resembling an answer (it wasn't)?

He is still fighting with the NFL because, while he did actually win a lawsuit against the NFL showing they were a monopoly and were abusing it, he also bankrupted their competitor, the USFL which he was a team owner of. What did he win? $1. That was his actual dollar amount he won. He still doesn't have an NFL team like he wanted.

If there is one thing about Donald Trump that is true is that he NEVER lets go of a grievance. Never. Even if it would bankrupt him completely.

[DarkAmbient]

Your focus is on that, it's not on the fact that this was meant to be a fact-checked debate ATTEMPTING to reconcile two candidates policy position. You've been sucked in and aren't bright enough to figure that out. That's on you friendo.

The quality of the fact checking and the quality of the candidates' performance can be observed and remarked upon independently. The format being bad does not in any way absolve Biden or Trump of their failings during the debate. Funny that you should accuse me of not being bright enough to figure something out...

[Malkiah]

alternate take (just musing here):
this really shows that the political and cultural zeitgeist in the US, and to be fair in a lot of other countries as well, is still WAY too invested in singular figures.
it's kind of ironic considering how much of the structure of most governments now are based on a rejection on monarchy that we put all of our metaphorical eggs into the basket of one person and how well they "perform" for us.

in terms of policy the biden admin has been the most progressive the US has had since FDR most likely, and i think even a surface level read of the situation would lead one to conclude this is probably mostly coming from his administration as a collective and less from him directly.
so to me, the biden vs. trump thing isn't really an issue so much as looking at the policy agenda set by their respective political organizations.

i for one don't care if biden is senile, any more than i particularly care that trump is a psychotic fascist - they're both just individuals who are going to be dead soon.
their only value is that a governmental body sort of requires one person who gets to make a final call on certain topics, of far greater importance is what kind of tone their respective administrations would set.

IMO we need to get away from hinging the entirety of national governance on individuals, because both trump and biden are such obvious examples that the nominal figurehead isn't the one actually *doing* much of anything.

[gondrin]

Because Trump did not look like a walking corpse that can barely put a message across.

In these debates what important is the optics.

And I would rather have a corpse instead of a fascist liar that literally cannot focus on anything but grievances.

[draynay]

Yes, I see a lot of "concern" about this debate, but lets not pretend this moved the needle for any of you.

[Wilian]

Your focus is on that, it's not on the fact that this was meant to be a fact-checked debate ATTEMPTING to reconcile two candidates policy position. You've been sucked in and aren't bright enough to figure that out. That's on you friendo.

Anyway I'm out Dawntrail dropping soon, read Manufacturing consent at the very least, and probably also dark money.

Whatever the process should have been, wasn't and this is what we got. And this debate, objectively speaking, greatly damaged Biden's image in light that he was meant to produce performance to show the doubters he still got it. Whetever there were fact checks there that should've been is irrelevant to that damage shown for the public.

[Mekh]

Yes, I see a lot of "concern" about this debate, but lets not pretend this moved the needle for any of you.

Just imagine a person who had their needle moved away from Biden because of the debate.

[Wilian]

Just imagine a person who had their needle moved away from Biden because of the debate.

The thing is, it was meant to appeal for the undecided, not those who already have made their mind on the vote. And thanks to US being relatively low IQ third world country for most parts, there are still substantial amount of those who haven't' decided.

[Nymrohd]

Your focus is on that, it's not on the fact that this was meant to be a fact-checked debate ATTEMPTING to reconcile two candidates policy position. You've been sucked in and aren't bright enough to figure that out. That's on you friendo.

But that is a normative position. That is what a debate should be about. Yet that is not what it is about in practice. You can rage about media manipulation day and night, but they control the narrative, not you. The narrative for Biden was crystal clear before the debate. He failed to change it. Not because the media tricked him or caused him to fail, this wasn't edited and they didn't try to trip him, he just couldn't present a better case. You can make the claim that Trump should have been fact-checked; that his story in this debate should be about how he lies and how it needs to be challenged. He did not face that story. If he was faced with someone more effective than Biden, they could have forced that conclusion without depending on the moderator doing their job. And has Trump ever been fact checked live as he properly should have in previous debates?
Biden had the uphill battle for this debate but he also was the one who stood to gain the most. If he was effective in this debate, if he didn't ramble on and lose his train of thought repeatedly, he would have killed the GOP's narrative. Sure the terminal GOP voters wouldn't care but they are irrelevant anyway, their vote is locked. Meanwhile I don't think Trump had nearly as much to gain from a better or a worse performance here. He could have been fact checked better and that could have flustered him, sure. But any moderate voter is unlikely to live in a GOP media bubble so they are familiar with Trump lying and his facts ending up pants on fire. Imo he showed up to give Biden a chance to dig his grave, not because he had something to gain. All eyes were on Biden, not on Trump.

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Yes, I see a lot of "concern" about this debate, but lets not pretend this moved the needle for any of you.

I don't think people who would post on politics on this forum were ever undecided to begin with. Nothing that could reasonably happen in this debate would have moved the needle.

[DarkAmbient]

Just imagine a person who had their needle moved away from Biden because of the debate.

Imagine people so caught up in tribalism that they can't bring themselves to be honest about something that occurred within plain sight of the entire world.

[Nymrohd]

Just imagine a person who had their needle moved away from Biden because of the debate.

I assume the many moderate/undecided voters in the US would be the people moved by it? You know, the people that will decide the election. You can have any amount of disdain for them and I don't blame you but at the end of the day, their vote counts as much as yours.

[Mekh]

Imagine people so caught up in tribalism that they can't bring themselves to be honest about something that occurred within plain sight of the entire world.

Imagine people so caught up in tribalism that they care about the old man looking old when the alternative is Donald Trump. Yours is the smoothest brain take in this thread.

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I assume the many moderate/undecided voters in the US would be the people moved by it? You know, the people that will decide the election. You can have any amount of disdain for them and I don't blame you but at the end of the day, their vote counts as much as yours.

Then put the blame where it belongs. Idiots who need their flim-flam.

[Shadowferal]

Yes, I see a lot of "concern" about this debate, but lets not pretend this moved the needle for any of you.

You're right. The needle didn't move.
This about the issues that are already in play.
Someone on the Left needs to bring up the "Southern Economic Development Model."