2024 Election - Trump vs. Harris, important downballot

[Flarelaine]

...Don't listen to experts...

It's a common Republican talking point.

In the '90s, we did have someone from our then rightwing government declare that expertise is a Bolshevist trick.

[Dontrike]

Harris sat down for a 1:1 with CBS, which Republicans tried to make a really big, important thing that matters a ton.

Why won't Donald sit down for a 1:1 with them after having agreed to it? Is he too incoherent lately? What's up?

I heard it was CBS saying they'd fact check him during it.

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I do get that people feel it's a culmination of their collective anxiety and to not see your enemy be vanquished. But have i got news for you about politics....


[IMG]https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/didlc:fji27tmf5mynmv3wipvwfdfv/bafkreicq7tzje3po2rbw2zk6urbz7pdi7nwbyl3kgnc3ljnrzqr2e6eebe@jpeg[/MG]

He shoulda been cooked. Yet I'm already seeing the media normalizing Vance's performance.

Frank Luntz finds the dumbest people for his NYT focus groups...

My favorite line was from Walz.

“This is not a debate. It’s not anything anywhere other than in Donald Trump’s world. Because look, when Mike Pence made that decision to certify that election, that’s why Mike Pence isn’t on the stage,”

[Doomcookie]

Because you lied and since I'm not liberal nor agree with what mostly is said here makes me your enemy since this is an echo chamber after all.

I went just from the stories you posted, and the threads you created. I managed to find no less than three times where you admitted you were voting for Trump. They were your own words, your own polls you started.

Nobody forced you to try and create this weird narrative of yours.

I'll be honest, I don't think you actually voted for anyone. You actually come across as a European pretending to be an American. You change your leanings and allegiances based on whatever you feel like for that particular post. Just from the threads I saw you start, I see you claiming to support 4 different candidates over the course of 4 years, a total of 17 times.

Either that, or you're just a Trump supporter who got caught lying, a lot.

[Elder Millennial]

Here's the thing.

A lot of people here won't like what I'm about to say. I don't like what I'm about to say.

But I think Vance won in a weird way. This election cycle doesn't have a single flying fucking thing to do with facts or policy. The fact and policy people already made up their minds...months ago. These debates do absolutely not a single fucking thing to move the needle either way.

But Vance lied with such confidence and so much and slickly enough that he had that "vibe" the "undecided" voters base their votes on.

The Democrats fumbled this, bad. Like really bad. We needed Waltz to be very combative, we needed him to poke fun at Vance, we needed MEMES and Gif moments and shorts, which should be incredibly easy to do, we needed a circus where Waltz was the better showman. We didn't get that. The other option for winning was Vance fumbling it, but he didn't.

The "vibes" voters seem to be pretty fairly in the Vance camp here.

I'm kind of annoyed to be honest. This was such a missed opportunity. I don't understand what happened.

[Breccia]

But Vance lied with such confidence and so much and slickly enough that he had that "vibe" the "undecided" voters base their votes on.

The moderators really should start applying penalties when the debaters tell objective falsehoods with the intent to deceive. Not misstatements or exaggerations. Flat-out lies which have been lies for some time. Media companies should be insisting on the truth.

[DarkAmbient]

Disappointing debate. Walz fucked up and Vance slimed his way to a narrow win. Awful moderation.

[Doomcookie]

Here's the thing.

A lot of people here won't like what I'm about to say. I don't like what I'm about to say.

But I think Vance won in a weird way. This election cycle doesn't have a single flying fucking thing to do with facts or policy. The fact and policy people already made up their minds...months ago. These debates do absolutely not a single fucking thing to move the needle either way.

But Vance lied with such confidence and so much and slickly enough that he had that "vibe" the "undecided" voters base their votes on.

The Democrats fumbled this, bad. Like really bad. We needed Waltz to be very combative, we needed him to poke fun at Vance, we needed MEMES and Gif moments and shorts, which should be incredibly easy to do, we needed a circus where Waltz was the better showman. We didn't get that. The other option for winning was Vance fumbling it, but he didn't.

The "vibes" voters seem to be pretty fairly in the Vance camp here.

I'm kind of annoyed to be honest. This was such a missed opportunity. I don't understand what happened.

I think the issue is that Vance could win, just by not melting down and blabbering.

That being said, nobody cares about the VP debate. Nobody was waiting to see what these two said, before they made a voting decision. I will also disagree that the Dems needed to be aggressive, because it doesn't gain anything. They have a "prosecutor" as a presidential nominee who is aggressive, and won her election handily. This debate was boring, nothing new was learned, and it will barely even be mentioned after 24 hours.

[PhaelixWW]

But I think Vance won in a weird way.

He exceeded expectations, that's for sure.

They weren't very high to begin with, though. He wasn't the most polished speaker, but in that regard, Trump is the ultimate wingman: he makes his running mate look smart, polished, and honest by comparison.

The Democrats fumbled this, bad. Like really bad.

The Democrats didn't get what they hoped for out of this debate, that's for sure.

But hard disagree on "fumbled really bad". As you said, this debate wasn't ever going to move the needle much. It did what it needed to do: make the people who were leaning one way or the other feel more comfortable in their choice. Unfortunately, that was true for both sides here. Fortunately (unfortunately?), it did less for the GoP, whose adherents mostly don't give a shit if their candidates are coherent, let alone truthful.

This was such a missed opportunity.

This I'll agree with, though again with the caveat that even a stellar performance was never going to change the tallies all that much. Still, this is the last word we're going to have with candidates squared off against each other, and it would have been nice to go out on a strong note to carry that sentiment more stridently through the next 35 days.

To be honest, though, with the rise of MAGA fascism, legitimate debates have somewhat lost their cachet in the election cycle. I just hope we can eventually regain a portion of that spirit of democracy we once had.

[Elder Millennial]

The moderators really should start applying penalties when the debaters tell objective falsehoods with the intent to deceive. Not misstatements or exaggerations. Flat-out lies which have been lies for some time. Media companies should be insisting on the truth.

Both went into this knowing there will be no fact checking. It was the only way to get Vance to debate.

Knowing this beforehand, Waltz needed to go into this looking to pick a fight.

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This debate was boring, nothing new was learned, and it will barely even be mentioned after 24 hours.

That's why this was essentially a win for Vance. We needed couch memes, weird memes etc to win. Anything else, was just a miss.

[Doomcookie]

Both went into this knowing there will be no fact checking. It was the only way to get Vance to debate.

Knowing this beforehand, Waltz needed to go into this looking to pick a fight.

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That's why this was essentially a win for Vance. We needed couch memes, weird memes etc to win. Anything else, was just a miss.

Walz gets to come across as congenial. Sure, he could have gone after Vance about his own comments about Trump.

"When exactly did you decide Trump wasn't a sexual predator, and when did you change your mind, and decide that all those women were lying?"

I don't think it needs to be about actual insults, just holding Vance to what he has said. Vance has made a lot of negative statements about Trump, including wholeheartedly believing he was a rapist. That's what he should have called him on. Vance would have no problem saying he was wrong about Trump's policies, or his actions around January 6th. That's a Republican talking point. But, Walz should have hit him with his stance on Trump being a rapist. Make Vance call those women liars. That's the only way this debate would have been memorable.

[Shadowferal]

Difficult to judge when the comparison is Trump’s bombast.

[Elder Millennial]

Walz gets to come across as congenial. Sure, he could have gone after Vance about his own comments about Trump.

"When exactly did you decide Trump wasn't a sexual predator, and when did you change your mind, and decide that all those women were lying?"

I don't think it needs to be about actual insults, just holding Vance to what he has said. Vance has made a lot of negative statements about Trump, including wholeheartedly believing he was a rapist. That's what he should have called him on. Vance would have no problem saying he was wrong about Trump's policies, or his actions around January 6th. That's a Republican talking point. But, Walz should have hit him with his stance on Trump being a rapist. Make Vance call those women liars. That's the only way this debate would have been memorable.

Again. In any other election cycle, sure. Not this one.

I'm sorry to say but our politics have devolved from that.

The highest wave Harris got was the post debate/they are so weird memes era. It's dumb, but that what's needed here.

If 53% or white women still leaning towards Trump, not because of policies, but because of vibes. Same with white men. Like those union retards who are now lining up behind Trump. Policies are meaningless. It's all just vibes.

[Doomcookie]

Again. In any other election cycle, sure. Not this one.

I'm sorry to say but our politics have devolved from that.

The highest wave Harris got was the post debate/they are so weird memes era. It's dumb, but that what's needed here.

If 53% or white women still leaning towards Trump, not because of policies, but because of vibes. Same with white men. Like those union retards who are now lining up behind Trump. Policies are meaningless. It's all just vibes.

Vance isn't going to help or hurt the Trump vibe. Trump supporters don't care about Vance. They could put a stained couch as the VP candidate, and it would not change a single vote. There are no undecided voters, there are only voters who end up deciding to not vote. Did Vance cause any Trump supporter to decide to vote or not? No. Nobody cares about Vance. Honestly, nobody really cares about Walz, either.

It makes sense that people wanted more sound bites for the afternoon news shows, but those would be forgotten in a matter of hours.

[En Sabah Nur]

This debate was boring

Fucking good! Its very clear many people here are just far too used to Trumpian debates/stages/events, and seem to need the drama that comes with all that.

Give me a debate that is simply just a standard debate, with the debaters being cordial when its over, any damn day. Nobody needs the rampant bullshit/shouting/whatever, though some clearly want it.

[Flarelaine]

To be honest, though, with the rise of MAGA fascism, legitimate debates have somewhat lost their cachet in the election cycle. I just hope we can eventually regain a portion of that spirit of democracy we once had.

Honest debates were getting undermined at least as far back as Reagan's "there you go again" every time Carter was making a point on policy.

[arandomuser]

Looks like the October surprise for Dems is Bibi starting wars with literally every country in missile range of Israel. The Trump camp knows Israel's warmongering hurts Dems in the polls, and the more violent bibi gets with Dems continuing to support him, they know it's going to drive away a lot of the progressive vote.

Of course if Trump wins, he plans on handing the key to the armory chest over to bibi and letting him conquer what's left of gaza and the west bank, but I'm sure the progressives will feel smug satisfaction that they didn't 'personally' contribute to the Palestinian holocaust.

one silver lining is people who dont follow politics usually never care about foreign policy, the only time it mattered was in 2004, and kerry barely lost the election, this is when people still supported the war and bush had high approval, also historically people support wars when they first start unless they drag on for a bit

[Doomcookie]

Fucking good! Its very clear many people here are just far too used to Trumpian debates/stages/events, and seem to need the drama that comes with all that.

Give me a debate that is simply just a standard debate, with the debaters being cordial when its over, any damn day. Nobody needs the rampant bullshit/shouting/whatever, though some clearly want it.

Most people don't watch debates to actually learn anything. They want to see their guy win, they want to see blood and gore, which that's fine. It's a pre-season football game, where the only real outcome is whether your own team looked good, or looked like shit. if a candidate looks like shit, then the "team" needs to decide what to do moving forward. In the case of Biden, the "team" decided to get rid of him, and replace him with younger talent. When Trump played like shit, his "team" his team decided it was already past the trade deadline. Now, it's just a matter of deciding whether they show up for the the next game in November. In this case, Walz and Vance are just the backup QBs getting a few reps, and showing that they are both bland backups. Nobody cares about the backups.

It's a bad metaphor, but I'm tired.

[Poopymonster]

So the Republican stance is -- Everything wrong with the United States is caused by immigrants?

Well that is shocking...Shocking I say!

Technically he is right.

Ever since humans came to the continent, things have gone to shit.

[Lenonis]

The goal of VP debates is simple - "Do no harm" - in that sense both candidates "won" - nothing about last night is going to change the outcome of the election.

Because we have different standards for the parties you could make the case Vance did better....but only because the bar was so low it was practically on the floor, where Walz had a more normal set of expectations.

What is unfortunate, IMO, is that Walz was just too nice. He let things slide, he didn't challenge obvious lies, he didn't throw Vance's own words back in his face. He had the opportunity to remind the public how awful of a person Vance is, especially about women, and instead he decided to play Minnesota nice.

Missed opportunity, but in the end not likely one that will matter.

[Kaleredar]

The goal of VP debates is simple - "Do no harm" - in that sense both candidates "won" - nothing about last night is going to change the outcome of the election.

Because we have different standards for the parties you could make the case Vance did better....but only because the bar was so low it was practically on the floor, where Walz had a more normal set of expectations.

What is unfortunate, IMO, is that Walz was just too nice. He let things slide, he didn't challenge obvious lies, he didn't throw Vance's own words back in his face. He had the opportunity to remind the public how awful of a person Vance is, especially about women, and instead he decided to play Minnesota nice.

Missed opportunity, but in the end not likely one that will matter.

The “unfortunate” part is in that it allows Vance to be seen as “normal,” and by extension wrongfully un-crazies the Trump administration.

“Oh look at Vance, he can form complete sentences and he didn’t lie that much… well even if Trump is an inarticulate loudmouth, at least we have Vance! He’ll probably make sure he does all the things we want and keep trump focused.”

He’s an excuse that the GOP shouldn’t pretend they get to have.



Harris and her campaign need to get on top of the “campaigning and excoriating” train as soon and as hard as possible.