2024 Election - Trump vs. Harris, important downballot

[Karreck]

That choice was made democratically. Representative democracy isn't about having a say in every decision.



That's also not an argument against it being democratic, that's an argument for people generally doing what they're told by people they fall in line with.

Is democracy a shitshow of a system? Yes. Its main positive is that it throws wrenches into every decision-making process and slows things down enough that you make bad decisions way more slowly, with only the best decisions receiving broad support. It's not meant to be efficient and effective.



You realize you could literally change all of this in a single electoral process just by voting differently as a group, right? Literally all it takes is actually voting differently. When you point to the difficulty in getting enough people to vote how you want them to, welcome to democracy. This is how it's supposed to suck. This is exactly the suck you're here for, this is why democracy is a valued system, this specific kind of suck.

And I don't share your "suck it up and deal" approach. The system is flawed and should be corrected. Sure, voters can change things. Or they can protest like they did at the 1968 DNC. Or voters can become disillusioned with the process, like they did with the superdelegate system in 2016. Changes to the system happened after these events, but Nixon won in '68 and Trump won in '16 first. Not saying that these are the only reasons the Dems lost those races, but it certainly didn't do the party any favors either.
Sometimes change happens because voters vote for it. Sometimes change happens because voters turn away and those in power lose said power.
And when voters feel like that are not being heard, they are less likely to vote for you.

The process, yes. The money and connections and influence, partially.

Do you think primary debates would have changed the outcome? Who do you think would have run that would have been able to secure more votes in a Democratic primary?

The primary this year was no different than the primary any year there's an incumbent. There are never debates for an incumbent president in their primary.

Upsetting the incumbent isn't the point. Sure, it is likely that the incumbent would win, I don't deny that. But a primary season allows for other voices within the party to raise issues important to voters, but not addressed by the incumbent. This process can help refine the party platform going forward. And even if the incumbent would win most of the time, treating it as a foregone conclusion doesn't really help voter turn out. Which lessens the importance of voting in primaries within voter minds.
If the primary process is taken seriously by the party, the voters will take it seriously too.

This seems like such a weird argument. Did the DNC want Clinton or Obama? Did the RNC want Trump?

Did the DNC want Clinton or Sanders? Did the RNC want Bush or McCain?

Again, this article breaks it down. Obama and Trump appear to be the exceptions to the rule.
https://archives.cjr.org/campaign_de...e_invisibl.php

[Paranoid Android]

Read the past 4 pages or so and people stressing policy over 1 person. I'm sorry people but we are broken brain politics people who are on a MMO website who talk about politics daily. Most of us know and understand policy grinding on a daily basis is what government is. I'm just not sure the let's say 10-20% of those so called undecided voters understand.

But what I really have to stress here is Biden is such a selfish person. Just step aside dude. He should have announced a 1 term possibly 2 years in after the midterms. He is being selfish like RBG and this may kill our democracy.

Many will tell me that he is running and we have to support them. I get it but, we will see above if the 10-20% can get past the old mummy creaking around. In fact I guess I need to include that people who vote blue but may not vote. Democrats are surprisingly doing well in Senate races that I thought were dead to the Democrats. The down ticket might be more solid than Biden.

So Biden may have to rely on people who flip or generally vote Republican who to give credit may see many of the holes in the Republicans. Abortion of course. The midterms surprisingly killed may of the election deniers but we just talking about the President here. So the basic math might be people who solidly vote every election flip for Biden where the times the candidate energized a base that usually doesn't vote won't matter this term.

It's not over, but what a selfish move.

[Edge-]

Upsetting the incumbent isn't the point. Sure, it is likely that the incumbent would win, I don't deny that. But a primary season allows for other voices within the party to raise issues important to voters, but not addressed by the incumbent. This process can help refine the party platform going forward. And even if the incumbent would win most of the time, treating it as a foregone conclusion doesn't really help voter turn out. Which lessens the importance of voting in primaries within voter minds.
If the primary process is taken seriously by the party, the voters will take it seriously too.

Broad strokes: Yes, agreed. That'd be grand, if very unlikely.

The last bit though...voters will absolutely not take it seriously. We struggle to get voters to pay much attention at all, especially in primaries. "Taking it seriously", which is what already happens (especially during years without an incumbent) doesn't suddenly make voters pay attention and take it seriously.

[shimerra]

And I don't share your "suck it up and deal" approach. The system is flawed and should be corrected. Sure, voters can change things. Or they can protest like they did at the 1968 DNC. Or voters can become disillusioned with the process, like they did with the superdelegate system in 2016. Changes to the system happened after these events, but Nixon won in '68 and Trump won in '16 first. Not saying that these are the only reasons the Dems lost those races, but it certainly didn't do the party any favors either.
Sometimes change happens because voters vote for it. Sometimes change happens because voters turn away and those in power lose said power.
And when voters feel like that are not being heard, they are less likely to vote for you.

Most of us aren't advocating a suck it up and deal approach. Least not in the way you seem to have misunderstood it.

Not sure if you're aware but correcting a whole system takes time. And in many cases like the electoral college there are massive barriers to fixing it that make it impossible or extremely hard to overcome. So what do you do in the short term? Whining does work. Fucking off results in a stacked right wing supreme court screwing up our rights all over the place on top of the massively conservatively stacked federal judiciary for the next 20-30 years and more.

The superdelegate process by and large was another example of idiots not understanding things getting suckered in by Republican propaganda. especially the bernie bros.


The fact of the matter is unless your a far right zealot Trump is an unmitigated disaster. I personally will continue to advocate for change and do my best with the choices I'm given. And you can choose to not vote for Biden, or anyone oblivious to the fact that Biden definitely has a few helpful wins for the people that Trump would have not only not done but is actively trying to the opposite. I'll just remind you that dumbshit thinking like that is why Roe vs Wade is now voided. I personally would rather not blast myself in the foot with a shotgun while I attempt to fix the issue and if that's "sucking it up and dealing" then so be it. I'd rather not actively be a fucking moron instead.

[Milchshake]

But what I really have to stress here is Biden is such a selfish person. Just step aside dude. He should have announced a 1 term possibly 2 years in after the midterms. He is being selfish like RBG and this may kill our democracy.

Naw, youre just projecting your own selfishness onto Biden. Pretty sad.

You brag about huffing all these conspiracy theories. Trafficking in conspiracies is one of the worst kinds of selfishness.
When people are actually trying to fix shit. You barge into the room trying to suck out all of the oxygen with constant WhAt IFs??.

[Draco-Onis]

You seem confused about telling someone something and them obeying/following. The former does not automatically lead to the latter.

Hint: Biden can scream at congress or the DNC until he's blue in the face. What you seem wierdly confused by because it's really simple is that they're under zero obligation to listen to him no matter what he says in this case. Especially in a congress where the house majority is Republican and the senate is evenly split.


Seriously man it's really not hard. I get your biden rage boner stabs you in the eye which puts you in a sour mood towards him but you don't need to invent stories like him hiding under your bed to tinkle in the water cup on your nightstand every night. Just stick to reality.

He is the leader of the democratic party and in charge but he is a weak little butterfly with zero influence that no one follows got it.

[Nymrohd]

Did the DNC want Clinton or Sanders? Did the RNC want Bush or McCain?

Again, this article breaks it down. Obama and Trump appear to be the exceptions to the rule.
https://archives.cjr.org/campaign_de...e_invisibl.php

By Clinton I meant Bill. The DNC did not care for Bill.

[Draco-Onis]

Actually, he did not. He came close though in calling for new elections after the war, which is decidedly not calling on Netanyahu to go or ascribing responsibility to him. Though again, Charles Schumer doesn't appear to be named Joseph Robinette Biden so I'm unsure why you're saying that his invitation to Netanyahu somehow gives it Joe's "seal of approval".

Maybe because he's in charge of the democratic party and has offered no strong public push back to the invitation? just shooting in the dark here.

[Paranoid Android]

Naw, youre just projecting your own selfishness onto Biden. Pretty sad.

You brag about huffing all these conspiracy theories. Trafficking in conspiracies is one of the worst kinds of selfishness.
When people are actually trying to fix shit. You barge into the room trying to suck out all of the oxygen with constant WhAt IFs??.

ROFL! WTF are you talking about. Go touch some grass.

Almost every Democrat establishment commented on how old Biden looked on stage and effecting the election.

You are the one so much on the cope that even in my commentary I stated this is factor but not the end all be all. That not being selfish in what appears a major weakness to Biden may give Trump a victory and perhaps end democracy. Idk if this hyperbolic.

I have at least 8 years of post and been one of the loudest on incoming fascism of Trump so people thinking I'm trying to destroy Biden in here is the craziest thing every. I know almost most posters who have touched grass understand my positions.

[Edge-]

He is the leader of the democratic party and in charge but he is a weak little butterfly with zero influence that no one follows got it.

No. He's the leader of the Democratic party.

He's not the emperor and Democrats have no requirement to do whatever he asks of them.

I know you're gonna take offense to this: But he's not Donald Trump, dude. He doesn't force obedience by threatening and attacking those that don't do his bidding. That's not actually normal.

Edit: Once upon a time this wasn't unheard of either - https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-mi...n-on-apartheid

A young, Freshman Mitch McConnel once even defied Ronald Reagan, believe it or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe because he's in charge of the democratic party and has offered no strong public push back to the invitation? just shooting in the dark here.

A loud, public display of infighting and disagreement is surely the way to drive home how your party is unified and serious compared to the Republican parties constant infighting.

I'm sure if they did that you'd be here talking about how stupid it is for Democrats to be fighting publicly when they need to be showing unity.

[Nymrohd]

I mean what we think of Biden on this forum is irrelevant; about half of us are not even US voters.

[Milchshake]

ROFL! WTF are you talking about.
Go touch some grass.

Again, you're very stuck on projection.

Almost every Democrat establishment commented on how old Biden looked on stage and effecting the election.

Right right, every establishment figure with a podcast, cable news paycheck... out there stirring the pot for ratings.

Back on earth, most democrats didnt care. Too busy mowing the grass or doing mundane work.

A lot of your post hisrtory is complaining the Dem coalition doesnt cater to your peticular grievances.
A lot of complaining they can't win in 2018, 2020, 2020, unless they follow this one neat trick.


Mother did a fabulous critique of the paticular type of "leftism".




The endless critque is how they satisfy their paranoia or impotence.

[Draco-Onis]

No. He's the leader of the Democratic party.

He's not the emperor and Democrats have no requirement to do whatever he asks of them.

I know you're gonna take offense to this: But he's not Donald Trump, dude. He doesn't force obedience by threatening and attacking those that don't do his bidding. That's not actually normal.

Edit: Once upon a time this wasn't unheard of either - https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-mi...n-on-apartheid

A young, Freshman Mitch McConnel once even defied Ronald Reagan, believe it or not.

In this case it doesn't apply because Biden is the one who instituted the bear hug strategy and publicly bragging about how much he loves giving weapons to Bibi after he put out that speech. So while you may argue that maybe it's Chuck Schummer going rogue, it doesn't when put in the greater context.

A loud, public display of infighting and disagreement is surely the way to drive home how your party is unified and serious compared to the Republican parties constant infighting.

I'm sure if they did that you'd be here talking about how stupid it is for Democrats to be fighting publicly when they need to be showing unity.

The republican party is the party of good Nazi soldiers, democrats have always had disagreements, criticism and division so I am not sure what this party unity narrative you have is coming from.

[Edge-]

In this case it doesn't apply because Biden is the one who instituted the bear hug strategy and publicly bragging about how much he loves giving weapons to Bibi after he put out that speech. So while you may argue that maybe it's Chuck Schummer going rogue, it doesn't when put in the greater context.

Honestly I'm not sure what you're even arguing anymore beyond being mad because every time I point out that you're complaining about something either fictional or literally impossible it gets slightly changed with a new complaint.

So your complaint isn't that he's the leader and he should tell Charles not to invite Netanyahu, but that in the immediate aftermath of October 7 Biden expressed close solidarity with Israel? A position which has since changed but I guess we won't acknowledge that because linear time is inconvenient to this particular flavor of grievance. I'll just take a moment to remind you that as of earlier this month, Israel was blaming Joe for withholding weapons (without evidence).

Anyways, this is still a pretty boring topic to me (focusing exclusively on Joe) and I'd rather not turn yet another thread into a discussion of the war in Gaza as we already have a thread for that, but some of y'all seem to really want to discuss that in every thread.

[Doctor Amadeus]

It's the "But her emails bullshit all over again" Stupid people focusing on Bidens age over any legitimate critique "but Biden is Old as fuck" um of course he's old as fuck. He failed to do what he should have during the debate the fact both of these men were actually talking about fucking golf was the height of stupidity along with CNN fact checking neither.

Biden and his administration between the two has proven he is the more qualified period.

[Edge-]

He failed to do what he should have during the debate the fact both of these men were actually talking about fucking golf was the height of stupidity along with CNN fact checking neither.

Honestly when I saw a few headlines about this I thought I was reading parody shit but no, they really did detour to talk golf championships and handicaps for a hot second.

The absolute state of politics in this nation.

[Draco-Onis]

Honestly I'm not sure what you're even arguing anymore beyond being mad because every time I point out that you're complaining about something either fictional or literally impossible it gets slightly changed with a new complaint.

So your complaint isn't that he's the leader and he should tell Charles not to invite Netanyahu, but that in the immediate aftermath of October 7 Biden expressed close solidarity with Israel? A position which has since changed but I guess we won't acknowledge that because linear time is inconvenient to this particular flavor of grievance. I'll just take a moment to remind you that as of earlier this month, Israel was blaming Joe for withholding weapons (without evidence).

Anyways, this is still a pretty boring topic to me (focusing exclusively on Joe) and I'd rather not turn yet another thread into a discussion of the war in Gaza as we already have a thread for that, but some of y'all seem to really want to discuss that in every thread.

Well my greater point was that in the next few months a few things have to change for Biden to turn things around. The international situation has to be resolve or at least die down before the election, Biden has to somehow convey that he is able to stand up to Trump aka give a performance like SOTU. I don't think both of these are realistic expectations apart from that it is crossing our fingers that Trump does something so horrible it would turn things sour.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Honestly when I saw a few headlines about this I thought I was reading parody shit but no, they really did detour to talk golf championships and handicaps for a hot second.

The absolute state of politics in this nation.

Yeah I was disappointed Biden engaged in that shit. I am hearing he had a cold or something, he has my vote no matter what, but WTF! It for sure made the politicians are completely out of touch smile.

[Easo]

Lol, I have to agree with Draco-Onis that there is a lot of coping going on.

Optics, optics always have mattered and I would argue that they matter even more in USA. So yes, the age and this frailty are important, because that's what the voters see. Sure, Edge, the average one is a dum-dum (cause the rest of us totally are not xD), but that is what the dum-dum sees in the first place.
When you have basically all Western left-leaning press talking about this being a fuckup it probably is a fuckup and those details were important instead of being useless thoughts by dum-dums.
P.S.
I laughed at the "we overprepared Biden so that's why he stumbled". That's a cope too.

I mean what we think of Biden on this forum is irrelevant; about half of us are not even US voters.

1st part - yes
2nd part - no, it actually matters due to how much politics in USA influence rest of the world.

[Edge-]

Finally, some hard hitting journalism to follow up last nights debate.

“That probably wasn’t the right platform to be debating their golf handicap,” said Chris Morris, a pro shop worker. “But if those are legitimate handicaps, they’re both pretty good golfers.”

“I’m just glad I’m playing golf, so I don’t have to keep checking my phone,” said one golfer who didn’t want to be named for privacy reasons. “It was pretty awful.”

The San Francisco Standard sent a reporter out the golf course at the Presidio to ask golfers for their opinions on last nights golf talk.