Melee Healer

[sk8erfal]

So Paladin's are supposed to be melee healers, but I think Holy is in a weird place, not to mention the fact that my healing and DPS is the lowest of all healing spec's. So what gives, if I'm a melee healer shouldn't my DPS be the highest of all healers. If Blizzard is to lean into class fantasy and make me a melee healer shouldn't I just do DPS and my damage output also heal, I think that sounds cool and fun but hard for Blizzard to develop. I miss the days of ICC where I just stood back and only Tank healed, I'm lazy like that. What do y'all think about melee healer for Holy Paladin's?

[Omaski]

I was a Hpally main back in MoP and was never a fan of the Melee hpally rework. I thought Hpally was going to be similar to Disc priests in that their damage would be converted into smart healing & Disc would focus on bubbles/shields but that was not the case.

[Thundering]

Melee holy palas are boring.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Melee holy palas are boring.

I beg to differ, as would any healer who has played any classic iteration of healing classes since 2004. Standing still and pressing a button every 2-3 seconds is boring.


It's interesting that you say "melee holy palas are boring" when the concept of a melee-based healer is, quite literally, being able to do more than just the bare minimum: pressing additional buttons in between healing buttons, that interact with each other, so you aren't bored.

The option for pure at-maximum-range-casting healers are there, and that is because they can engage in more than just pressing healing buttons. Just so happens paladins do this while standing next to the enemy.

[saixilein]

Dont know if you are forced to do melee heal as a pally, i like playing Holy in WoD (mostly pvp in RBG) - then they forced you to go melee and i never touched Holy again.

In Shadowlands some people mocked me, because i said i dont play fistweaving, because its boring and no fun. Thank good pure mistweaving got buffed and being pretty good again.

Overall Healers shouldnt do dmg. I pick healer to heal and not throwing around some hots & raid cds and most of the time doing damage with a super boring rotaion or clunky playstyle.

[Thundering]

I beg to differ, as would any healer who has played any classic iteration of healing classes since 2004. Standing still and pressing a button every 2-3 seconds is boring.


It's interesting that you say "melee holy palas are boring" when the concept of a melee-based healer is, quite literally, being able to do more than just the bare minimum: pressing additional buttons in between healing buttons, that interact with each other, so you aren't bored.

The option for pure at-maximum-range-casting healers are there, and that is because they can engage in more than just pressing healing buttons. Just so happens paladins do this while standing next to the enemy.

Too make melee healing work you need alot of passive healing and you cant have cast of direct healing and the tactical thinking of who to heal and when. Its just a spam of melee dps rotation.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Too make melee healing work you need alot of passive healing and you cant have cast of direct healing and the tactical thinking of who to heal and when. Its just a spam of melee dps rotation.

This is not true in the slightest when it comes to Holy Paladin.
This read as somebody who does not heal in difficult situations like decently high M+ dungeons, let alone a melee healer like Holy Paladin or Mistweaver Monk.

[Thundering]

I am running m8-m10 dungeons, and raid hcs, but I given up since this session is quite boring.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I am running m8-m10 dungeons, and raid hcs, but I given up since this session is quite boring.

I'm sorry your bored of playing Holy Paladin but everything you have described thus far does not accurately describe playing a Holy Paladin currently, and that's the last 3 expansions. Try a Holy Priest.

[Indless]

Dont know if you are forced to do melee heal as a pally, i like playing Holy in WoD (mostly pvp in RBG) - then they forced you to go melee and i never touched Holy again.

In Shadowlands some people mocked me, because i said i dont play fistweaving, because its boring and no fun. Thank good pure mistweaving got buffed and being pretty good again.

Overall Healers shouldnt do dmg. I pick healer to heal and not throwing around some hots & raid cds and most of the time doing damage with a super boring rotaion or clunky playstyle.

I completely agree, healing feels so crappy now, why not drop the dps for healers and give them buffs or something, we dont want to f'ing dps .

[Biomega]

we dont want to f'ing dps .

Then don't.

Unless you're doing super high-end content, you don't have to play optimally.

However, be prepared for groups to not like you as a result. That's part of the deal - you choose to be suboptimal, people can choose not to play with you. But chances are it won't matter in 85% of content (if not more) so that's probably not a big deal.

There is no feasible way to not have healers DPS, because of how the game works. There's only two ways to stop it: 1. make healing so demanding they don't find time to dps (in which case anyone who isn't a gigachad baller will get absolutely crushed and can't heal shit); or 2. completely remove all damage from healers (in which case good luck playing solo). Neither of those two options are realistic or desirable.

This is a structural problem, not a design problem: it's a direct result of people's trend towards optimization, which increases over time. That's why this wasn't so widespread in the past - it would have been, had people been smart enough about it. We can see the results of this in places like Classic, where suddenly optimization that was never demanded in the original release is being held up as the standard left and right. Because people got smarter and better informed, and as a result, their expectations changed.

You cannot undo this without radical changes (see above) that in all likelihood would do more harm than good.

The solution is to just say NO if this bothers you so much, and take your licks. Yeah some groups will get mad at you. Some people will kick you. Nothing you can't live with, I'm sure, if you are really that opposed to DPSing in addition to healing.

That being said it's easier for some than it is for others. Holy Priest not doing DPS? Okay. Disc Priest not doing DPS? Yeah we might have some trouble here. It is what it is.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

However, be prepared for groups to not like you as a result. That's part of the deal - you choose to be suboptimal, people can choose not to play with you. But chances are it won't matter in 85% of content (if not more) so that's probably not a big deal.

.

People won't even notice in anything outside of like top 5% content, and dps won't matter in anything outside of like top .1%

I don't know where people even get this idea that you "have to dps." I guess maybe Shadowlands cuz most dungeons had 0 incoming damage? But that's two years ago now, you never needed to do dmg in Dragonflight.

[Biomega]

People won't even notice in anything outside of like top 5% content, and dps won't matter in anything outside of like top .1%

I don't know where people even get this idea that you "have to dps." I guess maybe Shadowlands cuz most dungeons had 0 incoming damage? But that's two years ago now, you never needed to do dmg in Dragonflight.

It's not about "you have to DPS", it's about "if you can do DPS, too, then why aren't you?" - optimization doesn't equal requirement. That's only true at the VERY VERY high end, where such tiny margins may actually make or break the result. In most content they won't, but that doesn't mean that they're not optimal.

See Classic - a lobotomized monkey could finish raids in Classic, however you suddenly see people aiming for specific comps, excluding people based on gear, etc. Especially in SoD. None of that is necessary, but it is optimal. And a lot of people care about trying to be optimal, whether they need to or not, because that usually translates into saving time.

People's time is valuable.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

It's not about "you have to DPS", it's about "if you can do DPS, too, then why aren't you?" - optimization doesn't equal requirement. That's only true at the VERY VERY high end, where such tiny margins may actually make or break the result. In most content they won't, but that doesn't mean that they're not optimal.

See Classic - a lobotomized monkey could finish raids in Classic, however you suddenly see people aiming for specific comps, excluding people based on gear, etc. Especially in SoD. None of that is necessary, but it is optimal. And a lot of people care about trying to be optimal, whether they need to or not, because that usually translates into saving time.

People's time is valuable.

I understand that but it's not the point I'm making.

No one in groups is going to complain about a healer not DPSing. Healers are basically invisible group members up to a certain point unless people are dying. But there's this litany of complaints here and elsewhere of healers perceiving they need to be optimizing DPs for some reason, as if people are going to kick them. It's a weird phobia because that never happens.

[Biomega]

No one in groups is going to complain about a healer not DPSing.

Depends on the content. The higher you go, the more likely it becomes.

These healer complaints don't come out of nowhere. Groups do give them a hard time. I've seen it happen myself. In completely unwarranted key levels.

This problem exists, even if it's not an every-single-group-will-do-it type of problem. It creates anxiety among healers because they never know when a group might go off, or when they might get kicked or whatever.

And my point is: those groups aren't wrong. Not in the sense of being unjustified (though most could absolutely be nicer about it, people are dicks). Because their time is valuable, and you can only ever be given someone else's time - you can never demand it. It is not incumbent on four other people to indulge one healer's personal preference. It's nice if they do, absolutely. Definitely morally virtuous of them. But no one has the right to expect or demand other people donate their time to them.

It's a weird phobia because that never happens.

It's not weird at all and it does happen.

Is it some widespread epidemic of constant healer harassment? No. Is it an imaginary problem that doesn't really exist? Also no.

[Dristereau]

I have no issues with Melee Healers, we've already got ranged/melee smart heals in the form of Disc Priest/MW Monk options and Paladin is more active in using Melee to build resources. I don't think it matters in the vast majority of groups as has already been said, but from a Mythic Raid POV when DPS is tight I am also looking at our Healers output compared to other logs, and requesting they improve this aspect. Whilst their job is primarily to heal (as mine is to tank), we are also expected to do as much DPS as possible to assist, as I've been in at least two Mythic kills during Dragonflight where in both I was the last one alive and in one of them the Boss died whilst I was about to die in Purgatory, so in those situations it does matter.

However for Heroic Raids, most casual level Keys, PVP, you can quite comfortably Heal with less focus on Damage. But adding damage as well is an aspect to improve and work on to help in higher end content.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

It's not weird at all and it does happen.

Is it some widespread epidemic of constant healer harassment? No. Is it an imaginary problem that doesn't really exist? Also no.

It is very weird considering how common people talk about it and how rarely it happens. But I actually play the game, often as a healer. When is your last experience with this in real-time?

Again, I'm not making a point about optimization at all, just how often something happens versus the perception of it. It's like people thinking they are going to get shot in a movie theater but you're more likely to get in a car wreck during the drive there.

Edit: actually pretty similar to all the toxicity in m+ complaints. That is far more common than bashing healers for not doing big dam, but also probably 1/100th as common as people here pretend it is.

[Biomega]

how often something happens versus the perception of it.

Those are connected. Part of the reason that this is annoying healers is the anxiety associated with it - they fear they have to comply or they will get yelled at, but that doesn't mean they're putting it to the test. I.e. they will do what they hate rather than risk a confrontation, which means they don't even know whether it'll actually come to that confrontation or not. The "actual" numbers are immaterial to this, because it's not about that. Same as with other forms of harassment: it's rarely a comfort to tell people "come on, this only happened X times out of Y" because that's not material to their experience as the negative experience sticks out even in relative isolation.

But don't get me wrong: my point isn't that this is some kind of massive problem that demands a solution. My point is there is no solution, and the complaints aren't even unjustified, and the only thing healers can do is comply, quit, or (my recommendation) do what they want and just take the consequences.

I'm not pretending the problem doesn't exist and I'm not marginalizing people's experiences - I'm telling them it's reality and there is no way out but through.

[Shamanegans]

I've been healing since the end of Shadowlands and by no means do I push any of the top 5% content, hell, my highest "rating" was 2.1K in solo shuffle which people say is bang average so not sure if my opinion matters much but, I agree with Ashana, I am likely one of the few people that hasn't really seen toxicity when it comes to healing and I've had my fair share of noob moments too. This absolutely doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I've seen it happen. With that being said, I am of the opinion that I will only "DPS" when I have absolutely nothing else to do, as in I need to just stand there and nothing else is happening. I've tried fistweaving and I cannot stand it. So, I won't do it unless I have absolutely nothing else to do. I do that in PvP, World Content and PvE. That is entirely my choice and I've achieved everything I wanted to achieve and more in Dragonflight and so far in TWW with this mentality, all without taking a massive load of flack for it.

IMO play the way you want to play (talent builds included). Unless you are pushing the top 1% of highend content, it doesn't matter one bit how/what you play. People are WAY too hung up on "meta" and rerolling these days, play what you want, have fun and you will get where you want to be regardless.