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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Ereb View Post
    What you asked is irrelevant. The odds of me shitting gold are the same as the odds of you EVER being in a position of power to fire anybody at blizzard, never mind anybody meaningful to development.
    I'm sorry dude, but if you are unable to understand that Blizz not hiring more dev is caused by something that can be solved and, as such, can be criticized (in opposition to you not being able to shit gold because that's just not how biology works), then I can't help you.
    MMO Champs :

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by xazrael View Post
    Based on many systems being introduced in The War Within, it seems to me we are heading in a direction which gives solo players more content and deviates a bit from the standard MMO. This can be seen over the last few expansions actually, with more and more systems encourages solo play. Then we are getting Timerunning, and for those of who played the PTR, the power dynamic of it was great. I always thought to myself, we are this great hero of Azeroth, but we always need 10-25 of us to defeat a villian? What is the downsides of Blizzard making players feel like they can rival the power of Arthas/Illidan/Deathwing/etc?

    Will this solo gameplay ever extend to current raid tiers? What if instead of an LFR mode, we instead had a solo mode. Here, you instead get to follow the story of being a hero that can take down a god yourself. What if a similar power structure used in Timerunning becomes a staple for SOLO player power. but when in group content or PVP, becomes disabled? (like the MOP Remix cloak buff turns off when in current raid, war mode, or PVP group play)

    We can all agree for the people that play WoW solo, do everything they can to avoid group play.

    Pros of Embracing Solo Play
    - Players can pace themselves based on their own life. Blizzard won't lose as many subs because of burnout
    - Enhanced Story opportunities where you can really build up a villain directly against the hero
    - Casual makes up the majority of WoW players, so this was appease most of the current players
    - Blizzard can focus on balance of power during group PVE and PVP completely seperate to World PVE.

    Cons
    - No longer forcing players to play in a group, will cause less person to person interaction
    - Players who do play group content may not like feeling weaker when in a group.
    - Players might get strong enough to 1 shot everything. boring?


    Thoughts?
    On the surface, I think this is a full-stop bad idea. The last thing this game needs is more reasons to be anti-social.

    But -- I have to admit that I see where the OP is coming from and I see why Blizzard might be interested in implementing something like this. Here's my idea:

    If Blizzard absolutely must endeavor to emulate solo raid content it:

    a.) cannot be content that rewards anything meaningful; it'd have to stop at the LFR
    b.) must be a standalone system that does not feel mandatory for players who prefer group content (no Tier)
    c.) preferably only applies to outdated raids as the demand for doing this content evaporates as the expansion goes on

    If Blizzard can somehow make a system which fits within these parameters then I think they'd have a pretty decent retention vehicle, especially if they install long quest lines which require raid participation over multiple weeks to complete.

    I still think a tourist mode for the tourist mode of the raid is... well, redundant, but I can't disagree with the overwhelming desire for players to pay $15/mo to play a single player game. Weird shit, imo, but if there's a market for it then Blizzard is potentially losing out by not tapping into it.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ereb View Post
    I didn't say it did? I said I want group content prioritized.
    You heavily implied it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If Blizzard absolutely must endeavor to emulate solo raid content it:

    a.) cannot be content that rewards anything meaningful; it'd have to stop at the LFR
    b.) must be a standalone system that does not feel mandatory for players who prefer group content (no Tier)
    c.) preferably only applies to outdated raids as the demand for doing this content evaporates as the expansion goes on
    YOu can already get tier without stepping foot in a raid now ie The Catalyst and that content in no way feels like mandatory for those who prefer groups.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    YOu can already get tier without stepping foot in a raid now ie The Catalyst and that content in no way feels like mandatory for those who prefer groups.
    They can leave the ability to catalyze the gear; I'm just worried that if it has Tier that it'll feel like a checkbox that group-oriented players have to do to maximize Tier acquisition at the beginning of a Tier. These kinda things never feel good.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    They can leave the ability to catalyze the gear; I'm just worried that if it has Tier that it'll feel like a checkbox that group-oriented players have to do to maximize Tier acquisition at the beginning of a Tier. These kinda things never feel good.
    I don't know a single person that currently runs LFR to maximize tier acquisition anymore. That used to be a thing for me and others but getting tier from season 2 onwards for group oriented players with the AOTC/KSM free token and omni tokens off last boss on normal/heroic was pretty easy. Even better in s3 when the catalyst was open week 1. So I doubt they would this either assuming its LFR(which it would be). Unless blizzard takes 2 steps back on tier acquisition in the future ofc.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2024-04-18 at 07:31 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    I don't know a single person that currently runs LFR to maximize tier acquisition anymore. That used to be a thing for me and others but getting tier from season 2 onwards for group oriented players with the AOTC/KSM free token and omni tokens off last boss on normal/heroic was pretty easy. Even better in s3 when the catalyst was open week 1. So I doubt they would this either assuming its LFR(which it would be). Unless blizzard takes 2 steps back on tier acquisition in the future ofc.
    Well, it depends on whether a solo queue LFR would replace the traditional LFR. If they have both I think the traditional LFR would have horrendous queue times which could potentially be ameliorated if it offered Tier.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Well, it depends on whether a solo queue LFR would replace the traditional LFR. If they have both I think the traditional LFR would have horrendous queue times which could potentially be ameliorated if it offered Tier.
    Lfr does have tier though? Follower raids would probably be like follower dungeons. The lowest difficulty of raid, similar rewards.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    But why do we want to turn an MMO into a not-an-mmo?
    .
    Because they aren't willing to create a standalone Warcraft RPG or continue the RTS.

    Even as a gamer who only played multiplayer games, I've reached a point in life where I can't freely schedule life around gaming, and solo is much more convenient.

    Warcraft Runble is practically the only accessible Warcraft game for me. WoW is not worth a sub just for questing content, and that's where more solo end game content would justify my return to the game.

    WoW has become the singular story-based Warcraft game, and so it should facilitate more than just the MMO gamer.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    On the surface, I think this is a full-stop bad idea. The last thing this game needs is more reasons to be anti-social.

    But -- I have to admit that I see where the OP is coming from and I see why Blizzard might be interested in implementing something like this. Here's my idea:

    If Blizzard absolutely must endeavor to emulate solo raid content it:

    a.) cannot be content that rewards anything meaningful; it'd have to stop at the LFR
    b.) must be a standalone system that does not feel mandatory for players who prefer group content (no Tier)
    c.) preferably only applies to outdated raids as the demand for doing this content evaporates as the expansion goes on

    If Blizzard can somehow make a system which fits within these parameters then I think they'd have a pretty decent retention vehicle, especially if they install long quest lines which require raid participation over multiple weeks to complete.

    I still think a tourist mode for the tourist mode of the raid is... well, redundant, but I can't disagree with the overwhelming desire for players to pay $15/mo to play a single player game. Weird shit, imo, but if there's a market for it then Blizzard is potentially losing out by not tapping into it.
    There's a bit more to it than that. It's less about tourist mode and more about just having the option to keep the story going or do stuff on your own. It's not as extreme as "hating people" or wanting a bunch of solo mythic experiences, though we've seen posters mention that. I think it simply boils down to "its fun to do boss battles, and WoW doesn't have many boss battles for solo players." It's also fun to advance the story, and it's fun to team up with NPCs. This doesn't mean that someone won't go and run the raid normally with a premade or something like that, just having the option to do a "story mode" adds value to play time.

    That being said, it being old content I think is plenty fine. I know as a leveler player I'm not all that concerned with tier and stuff, I just want a way to finish/see storylines that don't involve others. Follower dungeons are already a step in the right direction, and I definitely agree it shouldn't be a gearing path. But I do think a "story mode" wouldn't hurt anyone.

    Also the anti social stuff is a false dichotomy. People aren't anti social. They're anti random. People make friends out of game and meet them in game. And i don't know about you, but considering how dogshit 99% of trade chat talkers opinions are, I really don't want to engage with them in my dungeon or raid runs. I literally do not have the time or patience to entertain that.
    Last edited by SilverLion; 2024-04-19 at 02:33 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Lfr does have tier though? Follower raids would probably be like follower dungeons. The lowest difficulty of raid, similar rewards.
    Right -- I mean, we're talking hypotheticals here. I think Blizzard likes that there's actual people doing the LFR and I'm not sure if they'd be completely cool with abolishing it altogether. I could, however, see a world where they make follower raids the default LFR and move Normal to be queueable like the LFR is right now. I think that'd be a good in-between were they to go this direction.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    They can leave the ability to catalyze the gear; I'm just worried that if it has Tier that it'll feel like a checkbox that group-oriented players have to do to maximize Tier acquisition at the beginning of a Tier. These kinda things never feel good.
    Easiest solution to this is to make LFR gear sets not function above LFR or Flex - so those who 'feel the need' to get more set pieces won't feel pressured from LFR / Solo-LFR (I guess if that becomes a thing).

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    ...and move Normal to be queueable like the LFR is right now. I think that'd be a good in-between were they to go this direction.
    God if only they would start pushing slightly harder content on players lol.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by xazrael View Post
    Also, balancing isn't needed in solo play. Who cares if my Druid can dps higher than my paladin? You can still solo the content is the point.
    ...how else would you make it that content is doable by every spec, if you wouldnt balance it?
    without balancing specs content would have to be soo easy that even the weakest spec could do it, which would lead to people complaining
    a. its not chalenging enough
    b. they are FORCED to play certain specs as they are better at it

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xazrael View Post
    Casual makes up the majority of WoW players, so this was appease most of the current players
    there is huge issue here
    you are ASSUMING casual player = someone onky interested in solo play
    low m+ unorganised pvp or normal raids are still EXTREMELY casual content, just not solo

    are there people whou would like to have all that solo? sure, do we know if its more than handful of people? well, no, we dont

  13. #53
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    I don't mind solo content but I'd rather not see endgame raiding being that.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Lfr does have tier though? Follower raids would probably be like follower dungeons. The lowest difficulty of raid, similar rewards.
    if follower raids became a thing, and it gave the same rewards as LFR then it would absolutely kill LFR. even if LFR gives more loot drops, people would still go the follower route for faster queue times. downside to follower raids is that if it follows loot rules, you'd have a 20% chance at getting a single item. which would suck

    honestly, what I hope they do is plant a npc just inside legacy raid entrances who asks if you want followers. then it gives you the required amount for whatever difficulty you're doing. That would solve a lot of raid problems like for example G'huun or Mythrax or Jaina. Because they damn well sure haven't addressed those issues any other way yet. I don't think follower raids should be for current expansion raids

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    if follower raids became a thing, and it gave the same rewards as LFR then it would absolutely kill LFR. even if LFR gives more loot drops, people would still go the follower route for faster queue times. downside to follower raids is that if it follows loot rules, you'd have a 20% chance at getting a single item. which would suck
    It's not going to happen anytime soon cause it would be a nightmare to code but I hard doubt it would kill LFR at all. People still que for dungeons in XIV with other people even though nearly the full game has trust support now. Why? Because AI companions do jack shit for damage, they are tuned to make the run last around 30 mins so the better you do the worse they do. Meanwhile if you run the dungeon with players its gonna be 15 mins, and you can do other stuff while waiting in que it's only the extremely anti social people that use these features.

    Judging by follower dungeons the AI companions are even worse than XIV trusts, they would be garbage for clear speed and inefficient use of time. People would absolutely still que for regular LFR, and the loot would obviously be adjusted so you had the same chance at items regardless.

    And tbh if blizzard ever had this tech in the game, they could make LFR ques even faster by filling the rest of the group with AIs after waiting for X amount of time. But yea, I think this is a super low priority because the only thing currently stopping single player focused gamers from doing LFR is their own fear to hit the que button. Even XIV which is far ahead of WoW on support for this in dungeons doesn't use trusts for any raid and only uses them for 1 trial in the entire game. So if it's hard to implement for 8 player content, it would be a nightmare for 25 player content.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2024-04-20 at 03:32 PM.

  16. #56
    Rift tried a solo raid mode. It was completely underwhelming.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Rift tried a solo raid mode. It was completely underwhelming.
    If it's limited to just the LFR then it can, honestly, only improve the current experience. 2/3rds of the people in the average LFR are literally AFK the entire time.

  18. #58
    Future MMORPGs will be about a shared world with endgame for solo players, small and big groups. And with progression. Otherwise they will become as niche as WoW is nowadays. And no, 7 million players is nothing compared to a development where we had 1.1 bn pc gamers in 2008 and 1.86 bn pc gamers nowadays.

    WoW dropped 50% of its concurrent player count, while the pc game market grew by around 70%.

    Raids get less and less popular. At some point soloable raids are needed to justify continued creation of that gameplay. Not sure if LFR still adresses enough players to pay the efforts.
    Last edited by schmonz; 2024-05-08 at 11:48 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If it's limited to just the LFR then it can, honestly, only improve the current experience. 2/3rds of the people in the average LFR are literally AFK the entire time.
    A solo player LFR I can get behind. Other than that, raids are about friends and comrades coming together to bring down the big bad. The social aspect has always been literally the point lol, regardless of how apathetic the player base may become

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    Raids get less and less popular. At some point soloable raids are needed to justify continued creation of that gameplay. Not sure if LFR still adresses enough players to pay the efforts.
    Even if raids are supposed to be WoW's main dish, I can only imagine how badly must have participation #s dropped for Elitist Jerk Ion (out of all people) to even start considering something like these upcoming Delves. And not just as a final patch gimmick, but as a main feature of the next xpac.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

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