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  1. #81
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I was being sarcastic. If you call the Man'ari and Lightforged a different species to the Draneie, then the Nightborne are a different species to the night elves.
    No, man'ary a different species because they became demons, Lighforged are not another species but a subspecie of draenei. Nightborne is a different specie of elf yes.

    However I would point out the incorrect use of the term species. Trolls and elves, or trolls and humans are different species to each other. Darkspear Gurubashi and Zandalari are not different species, nor are Lightforged and Man'ari or Draenei and Lightforged or for that matter night elf and Nightborne.
    the term was not used incorrect. In real world taxonomy, <Troll> and <Elf> would be considered genre, like <Panthera> genre that have species like Panthera leo(lion) and Panthera tiger(tigers). within the troll and elf genre, you have different species of trolls and elves, and within then different subspecies

    IT is exactly the same with the Nightborne and night elves. as well as void elves and blood elves. Incidentally strictly speaking it is the same with Night elf and high elf.
    No, it is not. Those are 4 different species of <elves>

    Nightborne are not night elves, they mutate into a different specie of elf, just like blood elves did.

  2. #82
    Stood in the Fire october breeze's Avatar
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    Don't be racist. Hate all races equally.

  3. #83
    Character select could do with another do-over now that we have all these allied races. Personally speaking I actually think we should have MORE unique racials and versions of every single species - because variety is nice, and balancing all of this stuff either creates pure lame sameness or minor differences, instead of actual imbalances with varying power (like we do now).

    Like: Man'ari / Eredar, Draenei, and Lightforged. The first should be added, and both it and lightforged should be a pop-out option when you select Draenei. The default race is selected, while the allied race options unfurl so that you can see there are more variants of that species / race. It'd be a lot better than the mess of a character select screen we have now lol. It's all just splayed out so weirdly and things like Vulpera are for some reason alongside Zandalari trolls and Highmountain Tauren.

    Not to say they shouldn't still be an option and different than their base-race though. Just that the current race selection screen is so fucking filled with too many buttons that should be consolidated.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    No, man'ary a different species because they became demons, Lighforged are not another species but a subspecie of draenei. Nightborne is a different specie of elf yes.



    the term was not used incorrect. In real world taxonomy, <Troll> and <Elf> would be considered genre, like <Panthera> genre that have species like Panthera leo(lion) and Panthera tiger(tigers). within the troll and elf genre, you have different species of trolls and elves, and within then different subspecies



    No, it is not. Those are 4 different species of <elves>

    Nightborne are not night elves, they mutate into a different specie of elf, just like blood elves did.
    You constantly never cease to amaze me, Nightborne will always be night elves - whether you realise that or not. they are NOCTURNAL , kaldorei based elves, this is what they are, and a mutation hasn't stopped them from being that, to assume that their mutation is somehow different from all the others is staggering.

    void elves would have a more profound mutation from high/blood elf than Nightborne would from night elf. The Nightborne mutation is at least from the same magical stuff that makes the night elves - and came from an over use a poisoning of it. But it is from the same well of eternity, Azeroth blood juice that makes night elves and we presume the alteration is because of the aman'thul artifact addition, but it is equally possible the mutation is because of extend excessive addiction. The void elf change is from a very foreign magical energy source not part of the elf make up, it's the void. It stands to reason that the void elves are more different to blood elves than the Nightborne are to night elves. Hell the Broken are more different to Draenei/Eredar than Nightborne are to night elves. Although we don't know the relative degree of changes internally, visually Nightborne are night elven models thinned down, with tips of ears curving upwards rather than tapering..that's it.. it is the same 1-3 degree of variation from the main race they are varied off EVERY allied/sub-race has.. how you could possibly think that this is somehow different with no evidence whatsoever is beyond me.


    and the fact that the Nightborne are in kaldorei civilization, making them through and through a kaldorei civilization race whose kaldorei appearance is varied, like every other allied race, shows and proves this before your very eyes.. why is it horde players that somehow don't want to associate with their clearly night elven race with the night elves they are clearly a variant off. It is outstanding.. and yet, its is almost entirely coming from people who mostly do not play Nightborne or if they do, their mains are either blood elves or another race.

    Astounding. or does it offend you to realise you are playing night elves on the horde with a Nightborne, just like void elves are playing blood elves on the alliance. So to speak.

  5. #85
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You constantly never cease to amaze me, Nightborne will always be night elves - whether you realise that or not. they are NOCTURNAL , kaldorei based elves, this is what they are, and a mutation hasn't stopped them from being that, to assume that their mutation is somehow different from all the others is staggering.
    Just because they are nocturnal they become "night elves" now? because night? that is your defining factor? if blood elve become nocturnal they become "night" elves too?

    Mace, buddy, we know you have something with elves, and you want night elves to be this "arcane elves", but even that is going too far, you are confusing culture with species, a different culture does not make you a different specie or race alone.

    Nightborne are a different specie and race of elf, thats a fact, night elf is one specie, blood elf is another specie, nightborne is another specie and void elf is another, this is a fact.

    void elves would have a more profound mutation from high/blood elf than Nightborne would from night elf.
    No, both had profound mutations that changed their entire physiology and/or appearance, you are trying to rationalize to fit your headcanon.

    lthough we don't know the relative degree of changes internally, visually Nightborne are night elven models thinned down,
    Thats not just that, we do know they are changed into a new species/race, they are not just "thinned down", thats downplaying thousand of years of changes, is like saying "blood elves are night elves with light skin and thinned down"

    how you could possibly think that this is somehow different with no evidence whatsoever is beyond me.
    no evidence? are you serious?




    totally different species/race, just like wolves are different from dogs, they can look alike, but still different

    and the most crucial proof of all:




    nightborne have nightborne children, that are different from night elf children, that is the mostdefinitive proof that they are a different species/race, when you give birth to something just like you. Your night elf don't become a nightborne if he goes on a diet, and a nightborne don't turn into a night elf if he go to the gym


    Astounding. or does it offend you to realise you are playing night elves on the horde with a Nightborne, just like void elves are playing blood elves on the alliance. So to speak.
    It is astounding that you made all this headcanon to rationalize that night elves are the "arcane elves" or whatever, and want they to be the same thing, im sure you want this to be the truth, but isn't.

  6. #86
    yeah let's remove content, that always goes down well and never generates any controversy or upset at all. ever

  7. #87
    They never said they regret making the Nightborne Horde. Just the headcanon from the usual suspects.

  8. #88
    The Unstoppable Force
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    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    Because THEY ARE NOT DIFFERENT RACES.



    ... I mean, seriously; am I the only one who thinks this?

    Kul Tiran humans are Humans.

    Highmountain Tauren are Taurens.

    Zandalari Trolls are Trolls.

    Mag'Har Orcs are Orcs.


    ...etc.

    The ONLY group that is a legitimate different race are Vulpera. Every single other one is just a group that went somewhere else to live.

    They're still the same race! Just different cultures.

    If it was me, and I was overhauling WoW, I would just make the so-called "Allied Race" options part of the [Character Select] screen, alongside the existing options like necklace, skin tattoos, etc. A Culture Tab. If you chose those options, you can chose when you create a character to do the Allied Race starting zone, or the default (like how the game already has the choice of default starting zone or that island thing).

    Of course, if I really wanted to RADICALLY overhaul things and correct mistakes...

    • Pandaren: Alliance-only
    • Vulpera: Horde only.


    So both sides get their own silly, furry legitimate allied race, and the number remains balanced. Sadly, that can never happen because you can never tell Horde Pandaren players that their characters are getting deleted or force race-changed. Those 14 players would be very upset.

    Of course, there are other obvious issues that make this unworkable (which people who haven't read this whole post have already prematurely spurted out as a reply below)...

    Elves.



    One can say in all honesty that Mechagnomes are still gnomes and Lightforged Draenei are still Draenei... but are the myriad of elves all legitimate distinct races, or just mutations? A Night Elf can't have a child that leaves home and becomes a blood elf; they're biologically different thanks to thousands of years of evolution.

    But what about Void Elves? I think they probably a new race... but just barely. Physically, they're just normal High Elves who practice a taboo magic, but I'd concede that they've been physically mutated to such a degree that they will have Void Elf children. So that makes them a divergent mutation, and therefore a new race... I think? Am I right?


    And then there's the Nightborne. Even as a Horde player, I was shocked when Blizzard announced that they would be a Horde Allied race when BOTH sides played through Legion where both spent years liberating Suramar. Just like that, the people Alliance players spent years rescuing, feeding, training, fighting alongside with and eventually liberating have now pledged to war againt you? That was an INSANE design decision! I mean... Nightborne Horde soldiers helped burn the World Tree in BfA, right? Side by side with Horde druids, no doubt.

    If it was me, I'd say Nightborne remain an Allied race, but are both Horde/Alliance playable, exactly like Pandaren are now. I know Blizzard have said in the past that they regret making that decision, but for Nightborne, it legitimately makes sense.


    So that's my rework;



    1. ALL current Allied Races (except Vulpera & Void Elves) are removed from the Race Selection Screen, and just become part of the Character Customization screen as a "Culture" tab.

    2. Nightborne become Alliance playable.



    For no other reason than it irks me that a Kul Tiran can say "I'm not Human" and be technically correct.
    It's been how many years since allied races were introduced and you've still managed to misunderstand the difference between a race, and an allied race? Wow.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You can find the drust druid who said that in kultiras, is not just wiki. The only "speculation" is that they had children with normal humans, and that is just normal reading between the lines, since they would not openly said they would.
    So its a theory, not real....that carry's as much weight as a bucket of feathers.
    Again, if its proven i will agree with you. But a npc saying it. And its not being proven/said outloud is theory crafting at best.


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You are entering in a realm that is hard to explain in game terms, because this is muddled even in actual biology, interspecies descendants and stuff

    The thing with humans is easier cause drust are vrykuls, and vrykuls are human ancestors, we are looking at two different species(race in game terms), but one came from another, pretty much like dogs come from wolves, but wolves and dogs are different species. If they have children, you have a hybrid. In biology, if the hybrids form a new group on tis own, and have more children and develop, they can branch into a new species, if they have enough physical and genetic characteristics/traits that set then appart.

    A normal kul'tiran is genetically isolated from the humans of easter kingdoms, but not for a enough period of time for then to be a new species, big kul'tirans, have enough differences physically and genetically to be a new breed/race/subspecie of wow humans, one of the easiest explanations is due to the drust heritage, that not everyone have or manifest.
    again, you theory is not proven. And many kul tirans ressemble normal humans. And they where decened from gilneas people btw. and again, i agree with you on it might have a bit different dna/culture etc. But other examples i have given have more different dna/culture etc. And would be more viable as a allied race.
    and if it was the only "race" they did for that. But all the allied races are more sub races then real allied races.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    The lighforging process is a mutation caused by magic, just like other cases, you don't get just "light tattoos" your entire body change it, even your mind


    In wow, magic forces changes that create new races/subraces. we have example with fel magic(turning draenei into manari, blood elves into felblood elves) elemental magic(ragnaross blessing turning dwarves into dark iron dwarves), void (turning blood elves into void elves) nature (turning tauren into highmountain tauren), Arcane ) turning trolls into night elves, night elves into nightborne and blood elves), in this case light turned a demon into a light being, and draeneis into lightforged.

    the big problem in wow overall was the refusal to use the term subrace instead of allied race, this would have fixed a lot of problems.
    again...you are saying what i have been saying. there are better examples of real allied races.
    And some of the ones you qoute are genetics that are passed on to their childeren. Lightforged is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Not enough to turn you into something else
    Says who? if you are purged from darkness..you are changed?
    So what is the difference between paladins and lightforged...tattoo's and a bit more holy power?


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Demon hunter is a different beast all together.
    no, according to your logic you have been sayings...its a allied race. it changes the body.....
    sooo..... to qoute you
    In wow, magic forces changes that create new races/subraces.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    their change is not enough to be a different race, they are a subrace of draenei yeah.
    that was me being sarcastic. thought it read like that.

    a normal draenei can become lightforged...so its a class....you can chose to become one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    This is meaningless diffrentiation, culture is not the thing that makes a specie different from another one

    is like saying humans are different species because they have different religions and cultures.

    A night elf and a highborne look exactly the same, i don't know where you pulled out that they look different.
    lighter skin, different hair, more arcane attuned ( because they bred towards that goal), golden eyes....those are bigger changes then lightforged or normal kul tirans? night elves are more attuned to nature etc.

    But in your logic...if culture does not matter. And stuff like becoming a demon hunter, fell infused , lighforged can be a choice. Then all classes are races?
    are mecha gnomes then not normal gnomes? or void elves not blood elves? Because if culture does not matter, and only biology matter. Then a external factor does not matter.

    Or if you are saying a external factor does matter if it changes your body etc.
    Then demon hunters, death knights and any class that gets ability's beyong their normal race ability's are a new race. Like tauren druids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    What best is pointless to argue at this point, my post was to explain people why a race is a race and why it is a subrace in the context of species/subspecies, and how this could have being fixed better if blizzard put more effort on it.
    i get what you post was about. I just disagree.
    Even with your "logical" race in wow is different there are examples in WoW its not so.

    And my post was more to show how weak they where at best as allied races. No story and/or culture, looks/biology wise less different then some classes. And some classes have big overlaps with those species.

    For me there where better options then the races they picked. Or they should have put more effort into them. Like kul tirans. Your theory is logical and would make them lore wise a different race. If they did something more with the looks of the kul tirans, and a bit more story it would be better. sadly they did not.


    again, in your head canon about how races work. i agree with you. Then these "Races" would make more sense. but the terrible lore contradicts you.
    And the fact there where better options for some races . who are culture wise, look wise, biology wise etc more different then their parent races. And for me the effort they put into some of the alliance allied races where weak at best. lightforged and voidelves are the weakest excuse ( and hight mountain) for a allied race. barely any lore, different looks etc. And mecha gnomes are saved by their zone.

    - broken draenei would have made more sense
    - vry kul would be better human alternatives
    - highborne or even naga would make more sense for night elves
    - leper gnome, real mecha gnomes, murlocs, wolvar, tuskar all would be better options for gnomes

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Thats not just that, we do know they are changed into a new species/race, they are not just "thinned down", thats downplaying thousand of years of changes, is like saying "blood elves are night elves with light skin and thinned down"
    You can't see it can you.

    Dude, it's the same model, given a different idle stand still stance, similar to one of the ones in FFXIV, with one foot infront looking slightly more arrogant, It's the same model skeleton, trimmed down, and textures adjusted accordingly, and not only that it represents a skinny night elf, who hasn't had much food and is surviving by drinking liquids, with special energy juice. The energy, not meant to be used in that way, and so twist them a little, leading them to a cursed state.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Syegfryed - let's just say, when I see Nightborne, I just see skinmy night elves most of which have the tips of their ears curving upwards instead of tapering as the only major differences, you see an entierly new species.

    I just see a group of night elves that have mutated a little, living in the same ol night elf city, with the same kaldorei ideals they've had long before their bodies got skinny and darker, and the city Tyrande and the others thought lost to the sundering is now back, but they've decided to join up with the blood elves instead. So now I can play a version of night elf on the horde.

    That's how I see it. We can agree to disagree

  11. #91
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    If you consider void elves a different race, even barely...that means lightforged count too. Both are changes through magical means not influences/evolution over thousands of years

    Worgens are humans then too

    Mag'har are orcs from another reality

    Undead are humans

    Lots of things to muddy the water of these changes

  12. #92
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You can't see it can you.
    I can, see; that they are different species of elves.

    Dude, it's the same model, given a different idle stand still stance[/quote]

    no, YOU want it to be the same model, they are VERY different

    similar to one of the ones in FFXIV, with one foot infront looking slightly more arrogant, It's the same model skeleton, trimmed down, and textures adjusted accordingly,
    So? thats exactly what happened to vulpera, its the same goblin skeleton and they textured different, that same happened to blood elves and void elves, is the same model with different skintones and hair.
    and not only that it represents a skinny night elf, who hasn't had much food and is surviving by drinking liquids, with special energy juice. The energy, not meant to be used in that way, and so twist them a little, leading them to a cursed state.
    Twisting then a little my ass, that changed their whole race, just like blood elves changed from the night elves, the only difference here is that isntead of their skin becoming lighters, it became darker.

    Syegfryed - let's just say, when I see Nightborne, I just see skinmy night elves most of which have the tips of their ears curving upwards instead of tapering as the only major differences, you see an entierly new species.

    I just see a group of night elves that have mutated a little, living in the same ol night elf city, with the same kaldorei ideals they've had long before their bodies got skinny and darker, and the city Tyrande and the others thought lost to the sundering is now back, but they've decided to join up with the blood elves instead. So now I can play a version of night elf on the horde.

    That's how I see it. We can agree to disagree
    You can see then whetever you like, because your fanfic is yours to make, it doesn't matter here, we are talking about lore facts, that are not related hw you feel about then.

    You see then the same way because this is bias towards your night elf arcane utopia. Thats the only way for you to say they "mutated a little", its not a little, is a lot, same way blood elves did, the only difference is their skin color.

    Saying nightborne are night elves is saying blood elves are nith elves as well, that "mutated a little", or saying night elves are trolls who "mutated a little".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    If you consider void elves a different race, even barely...that means lightforged count too. Both are changes through magical means not influences/evolution over thousands of years
    Lighrforged would be a subrace, not enough change to be a new race entirely.

  13. #93
    It's stupid to remove them yes because they are a good addition to the game

    but i have question for people who are against this, how is this any different when some of you agreed to remove timer from mythic plus ?

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