Poll: Do you agree with the "neutral race philosophy"?

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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Ha, you claim im a Garrosh apologist, but here you are apologizing for the alliance, they can change, but not Garrosh nor the horde, they were always the same from day 1 he assumed until SoO. Like i said, revisionism from headcanon.
    Garrosh DID change his values. He was a much different Orc when Thrall first found him on Outland.

    Is it not clear that I said Garrosh's beliefs did not change during his reign? Where is the revisionism in his core belief system? Where is thr headcanon?

    Who cares? it was still the horde value, you do not get to decide how its done.
    You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

    I don:t get to decide how it's done. Blizzard does. And the lore has villiainized the core values of the Old Horde that Garrosh held dearly to. Same values that Grom held to when he drank the blood again.

    Guess who decided all that? Blizzard did. Not me.

  2. #462
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Garrosh DID change his values.
    Exactly, he was not like he was in MOP, or wtlk, or in TBC, nor in Cata, Garrosh is one of the characters who most change and got twisted along way, if you actually make a psychological study on him you will see how much he changed and what cause those changes. Thats why you can't say the entire time he was warchief was the same

    Is it not clear that I said Garrosh's beliefs did not change during his reign?
    It literally did. He change his view to other horde races, he change his idea of taking kalindor to the horde to take the entire azeroth to the horde, he even change his view about using dark magic, Cata Garrosh would never use old god powers nor throw away his father weapon.

    And like i said, we can pinpoint exactly the reasons why he changed. The later, by example, is due to Garrosh getting close to malkorok and the blackrock orcs who were once part of the dark horde

    And the lore has villiainized the core values of the Old Horde that Garrosh held dearly to.
    You mean the same horde values that was a thing since wc3? were they villanized?

    Because Garrosh horde was pretty much wc3 horde, but taking a more pro-active role. Only later stuff changed, and only later he was villanized

    Unless you also wanna argue Thrall did not uphold horde values either, and was doing acts of villany back there
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2024-05-20 at 02:25 AM.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Exactly, he was not like he was in MOP, or wtlk, or in TBC, nor in Cata, Garrosh is one of the characters who most change and got twisted along way, if you actually make a psychological study on him you will see how much he changed and what cause those changes. Thats why you can't say the entire time he was warchief was the same
    What core beliefs changed between Cata and MoP?

    His personality and actions may have changed, but his beliefs were the same. He sought destruction of the Alliance at every point, he simply didn't act on it in Cata while he did so in MoP and WoD.

    Same as I can say Arthas' core values did not change. He sought the most efficient way to defeat his enemies, with a ends justify the means attitude.

    It literally did. He change his view to other horde races, he change his idea of taking kalindor to the horde to take the entire azeroth to the horde, he even change his view about using dark magic, Cata Garrosh would never use old god powers nor throw away his father weapon.
    Cata Garrosh would never use Old God powers? You don't actually know that for sure, this is just your opinion.

    You can say he did not use Old God powers, but you can't make the claim that he would never use them on the basis that had not yet. Despite what you think about his characterization between expansions, It's the same Garrosh.. He was not corrupted by any external influenced. He did not take up any new belief system. And he DID use Old God powers.

    Where was the lore explanation for any belief change for using Old God powers?


    What you are saying is as bogus as claiming that Culling Arthas would never become a Death Knight because he hates the Undead. You see how cherry picking lore works here? It's completely headcanon.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2024-05-20 at 05:08 AM.

  4. #464
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What core beliefs changed between Cata and MoP?
    Already mentioned like, 3 times already.

    His personality and actions may have changed, but his beliefs were the same. He sought destruction of the Alliance at every point, he simply didn't act on it in Cata while he did so in MoP and WoD.
    Again false, his believes about the other horde races changed, his believe that Kalindor should be taken for the horde changed, so he wanted to get all Azeroth

    he simply didn't act on it in Cata while he did so in MoP and WoD.
    THEREFORE, confirming, the horde was not misguided in cata, neither did acts of villany, as you say, Garrosh didn't act on his changed believes from MOP.

    Cata Garrosh would never use Old God powers? You don't actually know that for sure, this is just your opinion.
    No, i know for sure, Garrosh is a warrior at heart, its literally the meaning of his name, He despises warlocks with evil magic and it was the reason he start trainning orcs to use the arcane, its the reason he focus on tactis and goblin tech. It makes no sense for him abandon his believes and resort to dark powers, hell, he didn't even do that in WoD, so there was a change

    Despite what you think about his characterization between expansions, It's the same Garrosh..
    Its the same Garrosh, who changed.

    You know, just like Varian changed, but he changed for good while Garrosh for the worse, people change mate, you only want to cherrypick Garrosh pretending he enver did and he is the same person ever, is blatantly wrong and ignore the lore.

  5. #465
    How many pages are you two going to go around in circles for?

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Again false, his believes about the other horde races changed, his believe that Kalindor should be taken for the horde changed, so he wanted to get all Azeroth
    He was also fighting in Northrend, openly challenging the Alliance and wanting to crush them as far back as Wrath. That also indicates a want for control of more than just Kalimdor way before he was even made Warchief. He did not change his beliefs that the Alliance should be crushed, any place any time. He didn't change those beliefs at all.

    As for his attitude towards races, how much love did he show in the first place? Even in Cata he was pretty cold towards Forsaken, and only really showed any interest in value to the Tauren out of respect for their might.

    No, i know for sure, Garrosh is a warrior at heart, its literally the meaning of his name, He despises warlocks with evil magic and it was the reason he start trainning orcs to use the arcane,
    Bullshit you know.

    You are literally using headcanon to push this narrative.

  7. #467
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    He was also fighting in Northrend, openly challenging the Alliance and wanting to crush them as far back as Wrath. That also indicates a want for control of more than just Kalimdor way before he was even made Warchief. .
    That does not indicate that, you are merely assuming. His desire to defeat the alliance had nothing to do with him wanting azeroth all for the horde, which is something he only wanted later.

    As for his attitude towards races, how much love did he show in the first place? Even in Cata he was pretty cold towards Forsaken, and only really showed any interest in value to the Tauren out of respect for their might.
    He doesn't need to show love, he show respect. He showed respect toward the races who were most prominent in northrend. Garrosh was particular found of Taurens because they were not just shamanistic like the orcs but because they were heavy in the frontlines of the war, and also found of blood elves who showed loyalty. He didn't like trolls because they were not as present there as they were dealing with Zazalane incident. But as more incident happens he ended up disliking anyone who didn't show blind loyalty.

    Like i said, multiple times. The character changed, his believes changed. Just like Varian and many other characters who are not one dimensional for their lifetimes.

    Bullshit you know.

    You are literally using headcanon to push this narrative.
    I literally said stuff present in the game and in books, but you do you.

  8. #468
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    WoW is dead.... Go play something else instead

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    That does not indicate that, you are merely assuming. His desire to defeat the alliance had nothing to do with him wanting azeroth all for the horde, which is something he only wanted later.
    You're equally assuming there is no connection. The defeat of the Alliance means the Horde becomes the single superpower in Azeroth.

    He doesn't need to show love, he show respect. He showed respect toward the races who were most prominent in northrend. Garrosh was particular found of Taurens because they were not just shamanistic like the orcs but because they were heavy in the frontlines of the war, and also found of blood elves who showed loyalty. He didn't like trolls because they were not as present there as they were dealing with Zazalane incident. But as more incident happens he ended up disliking anyone who didn't show blind loyalty.
    Which isn't a change in core beliefs, since his values are based around those who are loyal and useful to him. This didn't change, since you're just pointing out his perception of certain races outlasting their usefulness being ousted from his Horde.

    We also know enough from scrapped plans that he would have pursued a Mongrel Horde instead of Iron Horde. Even this follows his same beliefs of using races that prove loyal and useful to him. They decided to go AU route instead, and doubled down on the 'Orc-only' angle.

    Like i said, multiple times. The character changed, his believes changed. Just like Varian and many other characters who are not one dimensional for their lifetimes.
    I don't buy your explanations because they aren't different beliefs. Same as saying Culling of Stratholme Arthas would never be a Death Knight because at that moment he hated the Undead. It's the same Arthas. His core beliefs were built around the ends justifying the means, so "I would do anything to protect my people and defest my enemis, including forsaking my own soul" would have also been a legitimate option for Arthas.

    What you don't want to accept is the mere possibility that Garrosh may have wanted global domination in the name of the Horde from the beginning of his tenure. You can't see past this because you have already built up a bias that Garrosh would only think of survival, and only be respectful to his peers, and only be a stout fast warrior because of his depiction in Cata, without considering the same values he held since Wrath are the ones that ended in WoD.


    I literally said stuff present in the game and in books, but you do you.
    You cherry pick because I also present stuff from in game and the books, and you dismiss it for not fitting a specific timeline, a timeline that I refuse to exclusively argue over.

    You either take the entirity of lore into consideration, or you be willfully ignorant. And to this point, you haven't changed the slightest other than whatever stance you had on denying War Crimes because you thought they never existed as a law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ereb View Post
    How many pages are you two going to go around in circles for?
    You're on MMO-C. You know what you're getting into. If it'a not this thread, it will be some other thread. This is literally 'the gameplay' here

  10. #470
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What core beliefs changed between Cata and MoP?
    technically not cata but the shattering does show that Garrosh wants to do things honourable and enrich the horde while being against cheating and sneak tactics.

    A wrench is that thrown into that in wolf heart when all of the hordes might and mammoth men fail and his guards have to save him which makes him doubt the horde strength as it’s against “victory or death” which he was holding to still.

    Then in tides of war we see him move away from disliking sneaky tactics and favouring straight up might to instead doing any thing to win which carriers over into mop likely due to the events of wolf heart.

    The shift in beliefs is rather poorly done id say as the ingame questing with Garrosh doesn’t really reflect his frustration in wolf heart or where he came up with things like dark shamans but there is a notable difference between the Shattering/wolf heart Garrosh and tides of war/mop Garrosh.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You're on MMO-C. You know what you're getting into. If it'a not this thread, it will be some other thread. This is literally 'the gameplay' here
    lol touche.

  12. #472
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You're equally assuming there is no connection. The defeat of the Alliance means the Horde becomes the single superpower in Azeroth.
    Defeating the alliance in combat is different from wanting to dominate the entire world dude, this show a complete difference in his way of thinking, thus, he changed his views.

    Which isn't a change in core beliefs, since his values are based around those who are loyal and useful to him. This didn't change, since you're just pointing out his perception of certain races outlasting their usefulness being ousted from his Horde.
    I'm literally showing you how his core belief about other races changed, based on their actions and you just "nuh- huh". If you keep doing this with everything, obviously you will think you are always right. You can say one of his core believes, loyalty never changed, but this doesn't mean the character don't, he didn't like the taurens because they were useful, he respected then because they shed blood together with him in northreand

    We also know enough from scrapped plans
    You are even bringing scrapped stuff, that was literally scrapped because it didn't work out, to prove something else

    I don't buy your explanations because they aren't different beliefs.
    No, you don't buy because they direct contradict your headcanon.

    What you don't want to accept is the mere possibility that Garrosh may have wanted global domination in the name of the Horde from the beginning of his tenure
    And what you don't want to accept is the mere possibility, that, like any character in a fictional narrative, he changed.

    You seem fine to accept Varian, who want to exterminate the horde, change, but you can't accept that Garrosh changed as well.

    you brought 'scrapped" plans, but you also ignore how in every other timeline Garrosh was show to be the best warchief, only this one end up evil. How is this even possible if he always wanted world domination and was evil from the start like you imply without proof? Ah, now you will say that in other timelines he changed right? predictable.

    You either take the entirity of lore into consideration, or you be willfully ignorant
    You are the one literally ignoring all the lore bits present here because you "don't buy it", or you don't like it, or it contradict your argument

    you are unable to see a character change and growth and think since beginning to end they are one dimensional with no nuances and differences. You acuse me of Garrosh Bias, despite im acknowledging his descend do madness and calling out his villainy, but is clear who have the bias here, since you can't see character growth.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2024-05-20 at 09:49 PM.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Until enough people quit. Then it's an "oh shit!" moment for Blizz.
    Reasonably certain its lack of good content that causing people to quit, the story really does not affect gameplay in any way

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormxraven View Post
    Reasonably certain its lack of good content that causing people to quit, the story really does not affect gameplay in any way
    And what part of "story" do you imagine isn't "content?"

  15. #475
    At this point, every race should be neutral.

    Enough has happened in the story where members of each race should be able to exercise free will and choose their side.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    And what part of "story" do you imagine isn't "content?"
    Lore is not content its just flavor for actual content like instances the gameplay doesnt change based on lore. sure the lore might lead to x dungeon or zone but what you do there is is largely unaffected by lore

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormxraven View Post
    Lore is not content its just flavor for actual content like instances the gameplay doesnt change based on lore. sure the lore might lead to x dungeon or zone but what you do there is is largely unaffected by lore
    Lore is the base of every game's story. And without the story one is only playing to kill things.

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