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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Baraden View Post
    If they do this, WoW dies - it's such a ridiculous thing to ask for

    The game is built around the fact most people use addons, they would have to make instanced content significantly easier to accommodate no addons, and no one wants that
    Everything in the game is doable without addons, including mythic raids.
    Most people are simply too used to having a crutch to realise that

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Everything in the game is doable without addons, including mythic raids.
    Most people are simply too used to having a crutch to realise that
    The best raiders in the world say the opposite, I think I'll believe them thanks

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Blizzard should just take a stand and kill off addons for good.

    The main argument for addons still existing was the lack of UI customisation. This is no longer an issue, it's time to end this arms race nonsense
    Buff/debuff tracking is still horrendous and the blizzard nameplates that were already by far the worst part of the old UI still have not been improved. It still needs work before the game is really playable at any decent level without addons for those.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Blizzard should just take a stand and kill off addons for good.

    The main argument for addons still existing was the lack of UI customisation. This is no longer an issue, it's time to end this arms race nonsense
    That's a very bold statement. Blizz UI got better, but is still not good.

    Some examples:
    - You can't see raid markers in raid frames. Like... Why?
    - Custom button glows. My monk has an ability, that lets me cast my heal instantaneously every 10 seconds. That's represented by a buff on Blizz UI. As are about 40 other things in a normal fight, making it impossible to notice. So I either just press the ability and hope it's instant, or write a custom aura that tells me on the button what I have to expect. You know, like most other things that are temporarily instant.
    - If I fly over the world map, every 20 seconds some random NPC wants me to do a world quest for them. With a big talking head, detailing the text, since apparently Blizzard thinks my ears do not work and believes it to be important, if said questgiver is a black or blue or purple dragon head. As long as I can't hide the talking head, Addons are necessary.
    - Bags. How do people play with default Bags? 100 items in the bag without categories? You guys just use the search bar, srsly? Nah. Nobody has time for that. Or manual inventory management.
    - Pet battles. No team management. No way to save strategies. Nothing. Pet battle quests would be dead without addons. (yeah, with addons they are braindead, but that's not really the addon's fault)
    - Keeping inventory. There are dozends of different currency items in each patch alone. Many of them are not soulbound. Let's say you would like to get the Ohnahra mount, do you log into each and every of your characters to look for the 3 required items?

    I've recently began playing WoW again and I tried to minimize my installed Addons. But that's hard. Some base features are so barebones, they are basically unusable. Or at least so obnoxious, that using them would severly increase my play time, which I rather spend actually playing the game and not dealing with a barebones UI.

  5. #25
    I'm actually curious at what the downside are and what alternatives would show up if Blizzard tries blocking addons from communicating between players'. That should solve a lot of the issues we have at the very high end.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Everything in the game is doable without addons, including mythic raids.
    Most people are simply too used to having a crutch to realise that
    "Doable" is a very vague term. Many things are not literally impossible but so burdensome and tedious that this is a technicality, or even a distinction without a difference.

    Is it theoretically possible for the RWF guilds to clear mythic without addons in the same state (meaning without further changes/nerf to the fight)? Yes. But it would take shattering amounts of extra time and effort. Not to mention incredibly convoluted workarounds, like having outside people observing the fight with stopwatches and clipboards to manually call out timers and whatnot. This would be completely stupid and ridiculous.

    So while yes, technically these things are "doable", that is a completely vapid statement bordering on the useless. It's not realistically doable for most people with the amount of time and effort that can be expected. And that's just about being able to kill things - it says nothing of the fun involved, a lot of which would evaporate purely based on the fact that you'd be farming gear on lower bosses for months as you accrue enough raw power to force through the later encounters without tool assistance.

    The reason for this is very simple: encounter complexity has gone up dramatically in part because addons exist. They know they can make certain mechanics without them seeming unreasonably complicated because people will have the enhanced awareness provided by addons that allows them to manage these mechanics, especially when they cluster or overlap (as they so often do). This entire ecosystem of fight design has evolved with and alongside addons, and would be grossly out of proportion if they were to suddenly disappear.

    The primary victim would, of course, be mythic; but even at the lower difficulty levels, a lot of midrange raiders benefit from relatively simple addons like DBM without having to venture into the complex solving mechanisms of something like custom WAs (a lot of which is the province of the top-end guilds, which then merely trickles down over time). The impact would be less severe in terms of mechanical demands at the heroic/normal levels, however people who are the target audience for that content also tend to be lower on the skill curve, meaning the added awareness burden would likely be more severe. It would gatekeep a lot of people from content they'd otherwise be enjoying, because balance is again out of whack. And just because things are "doable" in principle doesn't mean the same people can still do it. Telling someone struggling with heroic raids to "git gud" or whatever equivalent is completely counterproductive, because there's a reason these people inhabit that particular skill bracket - that's what they want out of the game. WoW's spread spectrum is massive. This isn't Dark Souls with its specific target audience where "git gud" has actual purchase. And that's just talking player enjoyment; to say nothing of the economic effects as those people quite the game en masse.

    There are ways to change the addon ecology and shift to a different paradigm, be that curbed/restricted or even all the way to a complete removal. But cold turkey cuttoff and telling people to just "cast off their crutches" because everything is still theoretically "doable" is a terrible, terrible take.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Baraden View Post
    The best raiders in the world say the opposite, I think I'll believe them thanks
    FWIW Max's take on this is everything usually is doable in Mythic raids without addons, but there is usually 1 or 2 dumb boss mechanics per tier that actually do require a WA to properly navigate. So it might be the opposite but not because of the majority of the raid, it's close to being there if they cut out bullshit such as nelth.

    But doable is so irrelevant anyways because if there is a way to make things easier, players are going to do it 9 times out of 10. Like RWF raiders explain when asked, even if something is doable without WAs they're still going to pay people to make them mid race because if they don't the other guilds certainly are and that puts them as a disadvantage.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2024-05-20 at 10:09 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Blizzard should just take a stand and kill off addons for good.

    The main argument for addons still existing was the lack of UI customisation. This is no longer an issue, it's time to end this arms race nonsense
    The moment you have to heal through the atrocious Blizzard UF and you can't use vuhdo / decursive anymore, say goodbye to most of your healers really.
    Also the default bars are atrocious and many people won't play without bartender or something of the likes. Same with tooltips, plater with a good profile is actually needed to make any sense of the enemy tooltips in m+ or even do something simple as not having them stack on top of eachother.

    So no, wow is a long, long way of being good without addons.

  9. #29
    Stood in the Fire
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    massive win from blizzard


    Keep at it, get the playerbase actually thinking about what and why buffs / debuffs / mechanics happen, and out of the "WA tells me to stun now // RUN // Dispel! // Interrupt!" automatization that has plagued this game !

    edit - 420th post. nice

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerEelemental View Post
    The moment you have to heal through the atrocious Blizzard UF and you can't use vuhdo / decursive anymore, say goodbye to most of your healers really.
    Also the default bars are atrocious and many people won't play without bartender or something of the likes. Same with tooltips, plater with a good profile is actually needed to make any sense of the enemy tooltips in m+ or even do something simple as not having them stack on top of eachother.

    So no, wow is a long, long way of being good without addons.
    i heal just fine with blizzard UI + mouseover keybinds / macro's, thank you for your concern.
    Also the new blizzard bars work really well, once they got implemented i said goodbye forever to bartender
    I 3d print stuff

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    i heal just fine with blizzard UI + mouseover keybinds / macro's, thank you for your concern.
    Also the new blizzard bars work really well, once they got implemented i said goodbye forever to bartender
    And they didn't say "all healers", they said "most healers", and I 100% agree with that statement.

    Blizzard unit frames are absolutely horrible and you can't really customize them at all. It kinda sucks when all buffs and debuffs look the same, when you can't ephasize things that are important to you, etc... Maybe I want to track my most important buffs/hots? Maybe I want to make certain debuffs more visible so I can make better use of my cooldowns, maybe I want to hide certain debuffs because they're meaningless? Maybe as a healer I want to see which of my dps players currently has a defensive running (without seeing all of their other buffs that are meaningless to me)? Can't do any of that in the default interface.

    Is healing any content possible with the default unit frames? Of course. Is it fun? Not for most people. I guarantee you, a LOT of healers would quit or change roles if they were forced to heal with the Blizzard unit frames.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I'm actually curious at what the downside are and what alternatives would show up if Blizzard tries blocking addons from communicating between players'. That should solve a lot of the issues we have at the very high end.
    We've seen what happens - players use macros to enable the addons to communicate with each other.
    Last edited by neescher; 2024-05-23 at 09:32 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I'm actually curious at what the downside are and what alternatives would show up if Blizzard tries blocking addons from communicating between players'. That should solve a lot of the issues we have at the very high end.
    I think that in ancient times Addons used hidden chat channels to sent data to each other. Was th functionality blocked, or did Addons just drop it after better APIs were implemented?

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