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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Ereb View Post
    You understand that mythic+ exists right?
    I play world content, not mythic+. It was impossible to get as good gear in world content as in raids in early dragonflight and in all following patches outside of the final patches which are catchup patches for the upcoming expac.

    It is actually you who takes argument out of context, and that only because you got a vendetta going. I am going to ignore your posts in the future.

  2. #202
    That's nice. Some years late, but its nice.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    I play world content, not mythic+. It was impossible to get as good gear in world content as in raids in early dragonflight.
    Still not even true because all factions each gave you a decent epic item or two. AND crafting items has remained on par with mythic-quality gear. I farmed the shit out a few of the factions before raids even were available for that very reason, because it was as good as I could expect in a raid (normal). Cutting yourself off from almost all of end game and demanding the same prizes/results. Sucks you have to actually play the game to get stuff I know...

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    depending on what you define as "everything" because the irony here is that one of the reasons Elden Ring is SO good (other then the story and worldbuilding) is that it offers such a wide variety of playstyles and is so good at teaching them that even the most casual unskilled player can finish the game's story - they simply spec into a playstyle that helps them do that - and player who want challenge - can do that too. casual player may not be able to experience every playstyle - but they CAN experience all of the story.

    people forget that when WoW was released - it blew up the way that it did because it was THE first MMO on the market that did NOT require you to be grouped to progress through the game. it was the first casual friendly MMO.
    Except if you wanted the whole story, that includes raiding, you couldn’t see it if you weren’t willing to do organized content, that was challenging for the time. That’s the entire reason LFR and LFG were created.
    Nothing you said even challenges the statement I made. Not everyone is able to 100% the game. That includes raiding and m+ at the highest difficulty. There is still LFR for people to see it, and now it seems there will be Story Mode as well.
    As I previously stated, I won’t use it, but I’m not opposed to its existence as it will be a way for players to experience something they might not have before, much like what happened when LFR was introduced.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    Thats how it should work in every gameplay. You are too weak for Delves+6? Play more delves +5 and collect gear which allows you to overgear gameplay on difficulty 6 at the point you collected all gearing upgrades possible. This is how it works in mythic+ and in raids (outside of mythic raids, that is).

    Overgearing is a valid path for playing a game. You literally play a lower difficulty until your gear allows you a higher difficulty more easily. Overgearing would take much longer than having skill, where you literally breeze through a higher difficulty up to to a way higher challenge which adresses the higher skill with a notable challenge. A not skilled player starts at delves 1. A skilled player starts at delves+5.

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    If he would not focus on raids, he would get rid of gatekeeping the best rewards for organized raids. Go for it, Ion. You know we would love you even more if you did the right thing.
    They are not gatekeeping rewards with having best items in raids. Thats 100% wrong. I clear LFR once for story purpose and see the raid, beyond that I sometimes pug raids on normal/HC if im bothered with it. Nevertheless, I get very good geared every season. Why? M+.

    Oh and btw - no you dont really "overgear" m+ to the point its a breeze. Theres a reason most players aint even close to 2500-3000k rating in m+. Got nothing to do with gear. Its something else. You might know the reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Except if you wanted the whole story, that includes raiding, you couldn’t see it if you weren’t willing to do organized content, that was challenging for the time. That’s the entire reason LFR and LFG were created.
    Nothing you said even challenges the statement I made. Not everyone is able to 100% the game. That includes raiding and m+ at the highest difficulty. There is still LFR for people to see it, and now it seems there will be Story Mode as well.
    As I previously stated, I won’t use it, but I’m not opposed to its existence as it will be a way for players to experience something they might not have before, much like what happened when LFR was introduced.
    Story mode is not the issue, until it suddenly starts giving rewards for doing them. If its only to see the story(raid) and thats that, im sure most players wont care about. If it suddenly gives decent gear (Highly doubt it will), its suddenly part of gearing proccess.

    Meanwhile, if story mode gives nothing, there will be players complaining about that too.

    Look at vanilla (classic) wow. All of the raiding there is piss easy (few exceptions), it could almost be considered story mode raids. Its certainly easier than LFR on retail. Would people do them if it didnt give rewards? Surely not. Its the way to progress your character by getting gear.

    So now we are getting closer to the essence here - People want relevant gear, that progresses your character. Meanwhile, doing challenging content is what gives you better and better gear in retail wow. While in classic its all easy, but it all drops relevant gear to everyone involved no matter the skill player X & Y have. Speedrunning guilds get the same gear drops as casual guilds with 20 people that are afk during a raid.

    On retail you progress your character by doing harder and harder content, until you reach a treshold for whatever reason.
    On classic you progress your character throughout, no matter your skill. What matters there is getting 40 people together. So everyone is on the same playing field and gets the same rewards.

    So, the response to this from retail players is that they want solo content. Because then they can progress alone, without having to play by a schedule or rely on others. Certainly valid points. But why are these valid points now? Because the PvE content on retail is so much more demanding, especially if you actually want to properly gear up.

    Ask yourself this; Do these players, that want solo PvE content, actually want really hard solo content (on par with m+/Mythic raiding) that gives great rewards or do they want solo content that gives gear progression with not-that-challenging solo content?

    Mage tower was a cryfest for months before they nerfed it. Its literally the perfect example of what happens when you bring in challenging solo content.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    They are not gatekeeping rewards with having best items in raids. Thats 100% wrong. I clear LFR once for story purpose and see the raid, beyond that I sometimes pug raids on normal/HC if im bothered with it. Nevertheless, I get very good geared every season. Why? M+.
    I dislike the timer in mythic+.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Oh and btw - no you dont really "overgear" m+ to the point its a breeze. Theres a reason most players aint even close to 2500-3000k rating in m+. Got nothing to do with gear. Its something else. You might know the reason.
    Actually all gameplay in wow is overgearable. Sooner or later. Even mythic raids. That is, at least in the next expac.

    But i talk about ladders you may climb up in the actual expac, and if you miss the skill to master a higher difficulty without gear, you should have to collect gear to be able to make more mistakes. Thats a fundamental design every broad audience (MMO)RPG should have.

    Instead of running against way too hard and complex brickwalls without ever having the chance to master them, WoWs gameplay should allow anyone to master it either with getting more skilled or getting better gear. And if last is possible, players also will become better in playing, and they will continue to play as long there is still progress. No gameplay difficulty should lockout millions of players. But allow everyone to get enough power to get there. Without asking everyone to grow to a challenge, as that simply does not work and never will. People simply stop playing if there is no chance to master the challenge even with the biggest effort.

    Solution: Tone down general complexity and skill required. Give gear in every possible gameplay.
    Last edited by schmonz; 2024-05-31 at 02:40 PM.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    They are not gatekeeping rewards with having best items in raids. Thats 100% wrong. I clear LFR once for story purpose and see the raid, beyond that I sometimes pug raids on normal/HC if im bothered with it. Nevertheless, I get very good geared every season. Why? M+.

    Oh and btw - no you dont really "overgear" m+ to the point its a breeze. Theres a reason most players aint even close to 2500-3000k rating in m+. Got nothing to do with gear. Its something else. You might know the reason.

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    Story mode is not the issue, until it suddenly starts giving rewards for doing them. If its only to see the story(raid) and thats that, im sure most players wont care about. If it suddenly gives decent gear (Highly doubt it will), its suddenly part of gearing proccess.

    Meanwhile, if story mode gives nothing, there will be players complaining about that too.

    Look at vanilla (classic) wow. All of the raiding there is piss easy (few exceptions), it could almost be considered story mode raids. Its certainly easier than LFR on retail. Would people do them if it didnt give rewards? Surely not. Its the way to progress your character by getting gear.

    So now we are getting closer to the essence here - People want relevant gear, that progresses your character. Meanwhile, doing challenging content is what gives you better and better gear in retail wow. While in classic its all easy, but it all drops relevant gear to everyone involved no matter the skill player X & Y have. Speedrunning guilds get the same gear drops as casual guilds with 20 people that are afk during a raid.

    On retail you progress your character by doing harder and harder content, until you reach a treshold for whatever reason.
    On classic you progress your character throughout, no matter your skill. What matters there is getting 40 people together. So everyone is on the same playing field and gets the same rewards.

    So, the response to this from retail players is that they want solo content. Because then they can progress alone, without having to play by a schedule or rely on others. Certainly valid points. But why are these valid points now? Because the PvE content on retail is so much more demanding, especially if you actually want to properly gear up.

    Ask yourself this; Do these players, that want solo PvE content, actually want really hard solo content (on par with m+/Mythic raiding) that gives great rewards or do they want solo content that gives gear progression with not-that-challenging solo content?

    Mage tower was a cryfest for months before they nerfed it. Its literally the perfect example of what happens when you bring in challenging solo content.
    Oh, I’m fully aware, and I know when people say “challenging solo content” that they mean for them. The issue is not everyone is at equal skill level.
    I have no issues with Story Mode giving some gear, but it should be somewhere between heroic dungeons and LFR ilvl, with no tier being available. It could also cap at WQ max ilvl.
    The problem with comparing classic to retail is that, back in the day, not everyone was on equal footing, because not everyone could raid. Older raids are looked at as piss easy now, and rightfully so; but, back in the day, these weren’t something where everyone was able to do and be in equal footing. Sure, they are easier now, but the raids are also much less demanding as far as difficulty goes compared to how the game has evolved.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Oh, I’m fully aware, and I know when people say “challenging solo content” that they mean for them. The issue is not everyone is at equal skill level.
    I have no issues with Story Mode giving some gear, but it should be somewhere between heroic dungeons and LFR ilvl, with no tier being available. It could also cap at WQ max ilvl.
    The problem with comparing classic to retail is that, back in the day, not everyone was on equal footing, because not everyone could raid. Older raids are looked at as piss easy now, and rightfully so; but, back in the day, these weren’t something where everyone was able to do and be in equal footing. Sure, they are easier now, but the raids are also much less demanding as far as difficulty goes compared to how the game has evolved.
    It's only the final boss right now so I imagine the reward will be whatever the current "kill final boss in raid" quest gives. Right now, that's a single Wyrm crest. I think we'll live if a few turbo casuals get their Elemental Lariat crafted at the Heroic item level instead of Normal mode.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's only the final boss right now so I imagine the reward will be whatever the current "kill final boss in raid" quest gives. Right now, that's a single Wyrm crest. I think we'll live if a few turbo casuals get their Elemental Lariat crafted at the Heroic item level instead of Normal mode.
    Exactly. Like I said, I’m not super concerned about it.

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