Remix and Classic and Retail; should they be combined; should they be the same realm

[Ielenia]

One of my favorite fallacies found on gaming fora is the "projection projection"; people having no clue who someone else is; they proceed talking as if they have secret cameras in their house; as if they have hacked the government servers; as if they know their age and credentials and occupation.

Dudes you have absolutely no clue who I am; you have no clue what I know about programming;

I don't need "secret cameras" in your house to know enough about you regarding this subject, because your statements alone show how very little you know about programming and game development.

And we're calling out your projection because that is what you're doing. You're accusing us of "not knowing what we're talking about" to hide your own lack of knowledge in the field, simply because we disagree with you. That is projection.

The point here is that you came to a gaming forum to announce that you hold the keys to Programming Knowledge

No, that is just you engaging in another fallacy: strawman. Further evidenced just below:

and that it's impossible to have Vanilla gameplay in the modern client;

No one said that. We're simply saying what you're asking for is simply not practical or even worthwhile.

I repeat: if you were working for Blizzard that would be a VERY embarrassing statement

Don't worry about us. We're not the ones making embarrassing statements here

[Stickiler]

The only thing they should do is consolidate the clients into a single one, at least at the UI level, like after you log in, you choose what version to play/download (so you don't get shoved a 120gb client for classic era)

The clients already have a shared set of code, if you have retail already, classic is like a 10GB install/download, not 120GB. Vis versa for retail if you've got classic already.

[epigramx]

They can, but why waste time and money to do so?
Like seriously what is the fucking point? Why spend so much time and effort to compile them?
nevermind the fact the classic players would be OUTRAGED that they are forced to download like 200 gigs worth of game when they only wanna play their like 12 gig classic wow.

not everything needs to be compiled, nor is there literally any reason for them to do so.

It's implied that the whole point of the thread is that it makes the gameplay better in whole. Why have a completely separate client and servers for it when you can just have a character in a few Remix versions; maybe one version of Remix is purely "classic"; e.g. you can't progress with it in the "future" worlds.

I don't need "secret cameras" in your house to know enough about you regarding this subject, because your statements alone

Sorry to burst your bubble but that's not an argument, just an "I hate you and I know you suck" rant.

Return with laying out why a multibillionaire corporation can't replicate the gameplay of a 2004 game.

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And I ASSURE you, I will understand ANY programming argument you may bring (if you have any). I very likely have more years of experience in programming and computing than you appear to assume without knowing anything about me.

[FelPlague]

It's implied that the whole point of the thread is that it makes the gameplay better in whole. Why have a completely separate client and servers for it when you can just have a character in a few Remix versions; maybe one version of Remix is purely "classic"; e.g. you can't progress with it in the "future" worlds.

I just told you why a seperate client, so the classic players dont need to constantly update and download the new games files.
people playing a 2004 version of the game, do not want to be forced to download a 2024 version of the game to do so.

[Ielenia]

Sorry to burst your bubble but that's not an argument, just an "I hate you and I know you suck" rant.

If you want to try to turn this into a pity-party for yourself and play the victim after you've been called out by everyone, be my guest. You'll be only one attending, though.

Return with laying out why a multibillionaire corporation can't replicate the gameplay of a 2004 game.

I don't have to. Because that was never my argument. So I guess on top of making fake claims about your credentials, you're also doubling-down on strawmaning what people are telling you.

I very likely have more years of experience in programming and computing than you appear to assume without knowing anything about me.

Mmhm. Unfortunately for you, I would be more inclined to believe you if your statements so far in this thread didn't speak against you in this matter.

[SoulSoBreezy]

In all these replies you seem to imply you hold the keys of Programming knowledge on some kind of sacred unobtainable goal.
This is a multibillion multinational gaming corporation; it would be embarrassing if they can't have in the same client the game mechanics of a game of the early 2000s; it should be a project that barely takes 1 or 2 months to complete.

And in case you're directly involved with the game your self: it's not looking favorable for you admitting incapability to do such a task; this is a task that indie companies should struggle with (not Blizzard/Microsoft).

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PS The fact there's no true reproducibility of the original gameplay/experience on current Classic makes the task even easier.
If they already don't care to have 100% of the original gameplay: why should they care of minor glitches/differences?

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And that assuming the process even introduces glitches (they have the resources to avoid them).

Even I'm not one to say "it's too hard, let's not make the devs do work."
It's more like "this idea doesn't sound like a good use of resources" and again, I fail to see the value prop of throwing a minute of dev time into changing what is already an approved and working model.
What about this idea of yours is going to get gamers to be like whoa I'm gaming so much better this is a total Blizz win?

[epigramx]

I just told you why a seperate client, so the classic players dont need to constantly update and download the new games files.
people playing a 2004 version of the game, do not want to be forced to download a 2024 version of the game to do so.

That's approximately irrelevant. Most PCs nowadays take less than a few seconds to update for major updates. They take slightly more mainly if it's an expansion update.

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play the victim

Nobody plays a victim. Personally attacking me with "you have no clue about programming" is not an argument.
Tell us Programming arguments that make a multibillion dollar corporation unable to replicate 2004 gameplay.

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What about this idea of yours is going to get gamers to be like whoa

This is not going to whoa anyone immediately, but it can be an important stepping stone technologically and for gameplay; the "Remix" tech can be expanded in the future on multiple sub Formats of it; one could be what Classic is now (can't progress to future Lore) or another can be what Remix is now and another can be something even more short-term etc (or you can have all "Classics" in the same client etc.) (it's mainly a quality of life improvement of not having to re-launch the game but also a potential to merge Formats that interconnect).

[Calfredd]

Nobody plays a victim. Personally attacking me with "you have no clue about programming" is not an argument.
Tell us Programming arguments that make a multibillion dollar corporation unable to replicate 2004 gameplay.

You propose ideas based on what you think Blizzard is capable of without seeing their tools and code but when someone else claims Blizzard can't based on what they think Blizzard can and can't do based on their tools and code, suddenly it is a fallacy.

[epigramx]

You propose ideas based on what you think Blizzard is capable of without seeing their tools and code but when someone else claims Blizzard can't based on what they think

The burden of proof is on you, because you make the extraordinary claim, that one of the biggest gaming and computing corporations in the world can not replicate 2004 gameplay.

Maybe even they believe that and maybe some posters denying they can do it post anonymously about it from a Dev position at Blizzard,
but I can confidently say that it's doable and it would be embarrassing if they officially announced they can't do it as if they are a small indie company.

[Lolites]

You propose ideas based on what you think Blizzard is capable of without seeing their tools and code but when someone else claims Blizzard can't based on what they think Blizzard can and can't do based on their tools and code, suddenly it is a fallacy.

did you not yet notice thats all he have? "everyone is wrong, i know everything and all my ideas are briliant despite having to upsides" is his standard MO...
well at least he did not yet claim not putting those clients together is illegal like he laughably tried with token...

[Veggie50]

I’ve spent several years thoroughly enjoying classic. Why are you so adamant it was a mistake?

99% of players don’t care it wasn’t 100% pure classic. Vocal few kinda thing.

[Stickiler]

The burden of proof is on you, because you make the extraordinary claim, that one of the biggest gaming and computing corporations in the world can not replicate 2004 gameplay.

This is such a ridiculous strawman, because literally not a single person has made that claim, except you claiming they did. The rebuttals have all centred around the financial viability of your plan, especially given the low level of benefits you espoused. No, developing the tech required to run multiple versions of the game within a single client doesn't provide much of a benefit, as the entirety of the benefit relies on the concept that logging out of one game client and logging in on a different game client is some insurmountable effort and barrier to a normal persons gameplay. Normal people aren't repeatedly switching between a classic and Retail character, beyond once or twice in a session if their friends are logging on to play. The issue just simply doesn't exist.

[epigramx]

know everything and all my ideas are briliant

The rebuttals have all centred around the financial viability

And who are you to come here and announce to everyone that you hold the keys to Blizzard's financial records?
Are you their Accountant; are you a Dev; are you the President of Blizzard.
Since you are probably none of that: what makes you an Authority?

It appears a blatant case of video-game-forum projection: you have absolutely no basis to attack others' arguments but you are supposedly an Authority to be rude against them and proclaim you know "the truth".

The reality is you know NOTHING on this; this is a multibillionaire multinational corporation; the burden of proof is on you to prove they can't replicate 2004 gameplay "financially-feasibly".

[Lodidop]

Remix works on retail realms because its a limited event and characters will become normal retail characters afterwards. The characters are just retail characters with borrowed power, they use all the same current tuning and abilities of retail.

How in your imagination you think this could work with permanent classic characters is beyond me.

This.
.....

[FelPlague]

That's approximately irrelevant. Most PCs nowadays take less than a few seconds to update for major updates. They take slightly more mainly if it's an expansion update.

Cool.
Does not change the fact that a lot of people don't want to have to stuff their hardrive with hundreds of gigabytes of stuff they do not want, just because someone on MMOChampion wants classic wow to merge with retail.

Imagine if when you wanted to play a steam game you had to download your ENTIRE LIBRARY of games in order to play.... peglin.
(Good game btw, high reccomend)

[Ielenia]

Nobody plays a victim. Personally attacking me with "you have no clue about programming" is not an argument.

You are playing the victim here, though. Instead of defending your ideas by, y'know, actually presenting some of this knowledge you claim to have, you're just pretending I'm personally attacking you.

Pointing out that your arguments and ideas evidence a distinct lack of knowledge regarding the subject being discussed is not "personally attacking you".

Tell us Programming arguments that make a multibillion dollar corporation unable to replicate 2004 gameplay.

Well, since you're just going to repeat the exact same strawman, I guess I'll just literally copy-paste my previous reply:

[dexx]

Remix and Retail ARE on the same realms

I havent looked into it yet. But is it the case that the only things from Remix that can flow back to retail are mogs and achievements? ie; not gear?

[Psilar]

So Classic was theoretically supposed to be a pure experience but that's not really what happened; the game engine had upgrades then the gameplay itself had upgrades occasionally; then the remix Format appears to try to promise a semi-original Pandaria experience too when advertise but isn't classic already a semi-original experience advertised?

Sop why not combine all those into Retail + Remixes only; it doesn't have to be like how the Remix format is now; it could be tweaked to be slightly more original like classic if that's what people want more; the benefit would be that people don't have to be jump between completely different realms without being technically purely necessary.

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THE FOLLOWING IS AN EDIT of the original post so don't blame the people of the first page of the thread if they didn't have that clarification,

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And just to clarify something critical here, Remix can have alternative versions, e.g. a 2nd Remix that is more "Classic-like" and covers what Classic currently does almost identically (e.g. no ability for the character to go to the future world too).

Yes.

So, basically Retail is losing players, the game is slowly breaking because of faction imbalances. Meanwhile, you have large chunks of players that seemingly need to choose between classic or retail. I have always thought for going on a decade now, that all versions of wow, every expansion, including classic, should be playable, scalable, modern content at all times. Some limit of past achievements, titles, mounts should be obtainable.

There is no reason why we can't have time-warped characters on our accounts that are stuck in an expansion, that can be brought over with the click of a button. Meanwhile, they can stay there as long as they want if they prefer.

Blizzard made a conscious choice a long time ago to forget about old zones and very rarely make new content take place in an old zone. This was a massive mistake in my opinion. The entire world should be updated and playable at all times.

Remix, also should be about a month, and then it should go away. In another month we remix something else. Every story and adventure should be playable.

I also hate to say it guys but using terms like "realm" has no meaning now. The only things realms do now is allow for multiple variations of the same name.

Splitting wow was one of the dumbest things Blizzard ever did.

[MrLachyG]

I havent looked into it yet. But is it the case that the only things from Remix that can flow back to retail are mogs and achievements? ie; not gear?

they'll probably give all timerunners a set of gear for their level. I just tried to copy a timerunner from retail to beta, and it wouldn't let me

[epigramx]

Yes.

So, basically Retail is losing players, the game is slowly breaking because of faction imbalances. Meanwhile, you have large chunks of players that seemingly need to choose between classic or retail. I have always thought for going on a decade now, that all versions of wow, every expansion, including classic, should be playable, scalable, modern content at all times. Some limit of past achievements, titles, mounts should be obtainable.

There is no reason why we can't have time-warped characters on our accounts that are stuck in an expansion, that can be brought over with the click of a button. Meanwhile, they can stay there as long as they want if they prefer.

Blizzard made a conscious choice a long time ago to forget about old zones and very rarely make new content take place in an old zone. This was a massive mistake in my opinion. The entire world should be updated and playable at all times.

Remix, also should be about a month, and then it should go away. In another month we remix something else. Every story and adventure should be playable.

I also hate to say it guys but using terms like "realm" has no meaning now. The only things realms do now is allow for multiple variations of the same name.

Splitting wow was one of the dumbest things Blizzard ever did.

Yes, and the only excuse naysayers have is "it's hard to Program". And I say as someone very confident in real Programming: if your programmers can't replicate your 2004 gameplay on the new client: get new Programmers who respect the peak of the Industry they managed to snatch a seat at.

PS and 2004 is the only "hard" part,
anything after Cataclysm is almost the same code and almost the same zones.

In reality the Devs already view Remix as a tech this way very likely (because it's common sense and an inevitable thought that comes to mind) (i.e. don't be surprised if you see this change within 1-2 years).