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  1. #121
    Bloodsail Admiral LaserChild9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    However to the grander topic of the OP the topic of war crimes in Warcraft is rendered immaterial by all the cooked shit done to the fodder races over the years.
    On the topic of war crimes in warcraft, I have seen a lot of people saying "horde committed this war crime, alliance committed that war crime" etc. The problem with those statements though is that there are no war crimes in Azeroth. We have the concept of war crimes because 196 countries signed the Geneva conventions to clearly lay out what is and is not illegal in war. As far as I am aware nothing like this has been done between any of the races of Azeroth let alone the Alliance and Horde, though something might have been signed in the book 'War Crimes' about Garrosh' trial but I don't remember for sure. So technically speaking there are no war crimes in wow lore, people are just applying our own law to a fictional universe...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    The Horde is the West, the Allies are the Soviets (kind of makes more sense the other way around, but I'm Horde and I didn't want to be the commies in this metaphor.. For the Horde!) and the Legion are the Nazis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    A person who is saying "You need a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun" sounds like someone who wants to sell 2 guns.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    To be fair, the humans didn't have much of a choice either. They were brought to the Eastern Kingdoms by their vrykul parents to avoid execution and then they had to survive there.

    Humans (and vrykul) and trolls skirmished for ages, but the Amani were mostly focused on the elves (because historically ALL elves and ALL trolls have a bloodfeud to kill eachother, even if recently thats ignored/they kinda adapted to work together), but once the humans formed the Empire of Arathor they knew the trolls would focus on their empire once the elves were dealt with (and the elves were losing!) so King Thoradin had only one option open to him and his people, await genocide and extinction or bring the fight to the trolls with whom they were skirmishing already.

    Anyway trolls stole the land from the Qiraj.

    (Also, I hate how everyone ignores that humans, elves, dwarves and gnomes have historical and recent hatred for the trolls and viceversa because the trolls consider all land, Troll land).
    I was talking about the foundation of Stormwind specifically. I know their ancestors fled alongside Tyr, into the Eastern Kingdoms.

  3. #123
    The Patient Shadowtwili's Avatar
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    Aaah, fair enough!

    Misunderstood what you said then!

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by LaserChild9 View Post
    On the topic of war crimes in warcraft, I have seen a lot of people saying "horde committed this war crime, alliance committed that war crime" etc. The problem with those statements though is that there are no war crimes in Azeroth. We have the concept of war crimes because 196 countries signed the Geneva conventions to clearly lay out what is and is not illegal in war. As far as I am aware nothing like this has been done between any of the races of Azeroth let alone the Alliance and Horde, though something might have been signed in the book 'War Crimes' about Garrosh' trial but I don't remember for sure. So technically speaking there are no war crimes in wow lore, people are just applying our own law to a fictional universe...
    War Crimes revolves around holding Garrosh on trial and was allegedly bassed of the Nurenburg trials, which is like... bombing the shit out of a fortification used for military ends isn't a war crime even IRL.

  5. #125
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    War Crimes revolves around holding Garrosh on trial and was allegedly bassed of the Nurenburg trials, which is like... bombing the shit out of a fortification used for military ends isn't a war crime even IRL.
    The eponymous "war crimes" that Garrosh got accused of in War Crimes were the mistreatment of prisoners of war (e.g. the tortured Theramore survivors you see during the siege of Orgrimmar), the mistreatment of Horde citizens, the transportation and enslavement of a variety of sentient beings (e.g. the Magnataur from Northrend, Pandaren, and many beings from Pandaria), and so on. It's not about his destruction of Theramore specifically, or any of the other explicit war objectives during the Horde-Alliance conflict of Cata and MoP.

    Azeroth has no conventions of law like those made at Nuremberg or Geneva, but such concepts were explored and outlined during the trial-like convocation at the Temple of the White Tiger in War Crimes. It was a natural conclusion of the convocation, acting as an analog of the ICJ or the Hague, that such conventions did indeed apply to current and future conflicts on Azeroth.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2024-06-11 at 08:10 PM.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  6. #126
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Hey look, it's the same thread you made last time, hoping for some form of "see, Alliance is just as bad!" Can we assume you'll once again ignore the lore that's inconvenient for your attempts at moral equivalence?

    The Culling of Stratholme - In case you missed it, Arthas acted on his own initiative. Other Alliance representatives in Uther and Jaina disapproved, and Terenas ordering him home is a pretty clear message. (Always love the "Arthas was evil and a human, therefore humans are all evil!" routine from hypocritical Horde, famous for shrieking "racism!")

    Stonespire Genocide - Please demonstrate that the purpose of the dwarves was to exterminate the Stonespire.

    ecocide in the Thunder Ridge - Ah yes, a small lumber camp is ecocide. Never mind the part about the Burning Blade doing the actual clearcutting in "Cycle of Hatred".

    Taurajo Massacre - MuH tAurAjO!, favorite of the "Alliance is just as bad!" crowd. Bringing this up is desperation with how many times the actual facts have been laid out.

    Purge of Dalaran - Maybe don't attack authorities who want to investigate involvement in handing a WMD to Orc Hitler.

    Void Elves putting goblin civilians and troll diplomats in void portals - Hey, they hadn't been out of the Horde long at that point! Horde has zero room to talk about targeting civilians though.


    Special mention goes to the reply that brought up another twisted Horde idea: The draenei are responsible for the Legion's actions, just like any victim is responsible for their murderer's actions.

    How dare they flee from monsters who want to murder them instead of just dying? That's almost as bad as the Alliance fighting back when the Horde invaded instead of just quietly laying down and dying!
    Especially this one, people don't just suddenly become mustache twisting villains...guess they like to pretend the Blood Elves never tortured a Naaru for power or drained creatures for energy. Forgot their very own prince running off to side with the legion for power, not learning anything from being attacked by Arthas and the scourge

    They always try and compare Camp Taurajo to nuking Theramore which is so incredibly disingenuous...purge of Dalaran was wrong but gosh darn it they always forget about the Blood Elves defending Garrosh

    They completely turn the other way when you bring up Kul Tiran civilians being slaughtered before they even rejoined the alliance

  7. #127
    The fight at Tyr Hand is peasants who are revolting, so the royal power in place and its allies there are repressing it. This is something quite common in this type of regime throughout history, where the government sends the army to quell a rebellion.
    So this isn't particularly noticed because it's not that special, plus this rebellion was formed by enemies of the kingdom to harm it.

    Moreover, with the fall of Lorderon and the passage of the Scarlet Crusade (itself massacred), the people who could have wanted to carry this memory are almost all dead or they have other things to do than evoke a small revolt peasant which took place 35 years ago in the past.

  8. #128
    Actually, Tyr's Hand was a Lordaeron city, so the soldiers who put down that rabble were Lordaeron soldiers... and don't the Forsaken take pride in being the "rightful" citizens of Lordaeron?

    So, it's actually the Forsaken who are responsible for the """massacre""" of Tyr's Hand, not Stormwind.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Actually, Tyr's Hand was a Lordaeron city, so the soldiers who put down that rabble were Lordaeron soldiers... and don't the Forsaken take pride in being the "rightful" citizens of Lordaeron?

    So, it's actually the Forsaken who are responsible for the """massacre""" of Tyr's Hand, not Stormwind.
    You care way too much for a triviality that is only brought up once a year.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Especially this one, people don't just suddenly become mustache twisting villains...guess they like to pretend the Blood Elves never tortured a Naaru for power or drained creatures for energy. Forgot their very own prince running off to side with the legion for power, not learning anything from being attacked by Arthas and the scourge

    They always try and compare Camp Taurajo to nuking Theramore which is so incredibly disingenuous...purge of Dalaran was wrong but gosh darn it they always forget about the Blood Elves defending Garrosh

    They completely turn the other way when you bring up Kul Tiran civilians being slaughtered before they even rejoined the alliance
    TBC Blelves depended on that energy to hold back the debilitating effects of their arcane addiction, which is ultimately what drove Kael to pull the stuff he did in Tempest Keep.

    Theramore was used to invade Horde heartland reaching as far as Stonetalon and the spitting distance of Orgrimmar, evacuated it's civilians weeks ahead of time and filled to the brim with Aliance forces. How many more caveats do you need to consider it a military target?

    (I'm aware Garrosh pulled some out of his ass like a year later to pin them next to the Darkspear Troll corpses, in order to decorate ahead of SoO raid)

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    because alliance won, that simple
    whoever win writes history, 4 of 6 main horde races united with horde because alliance tried to do their favorite hobby of practice genocide against those they see as weaker races, one of them literally twice, yet alliance see itself as virtue of good and horde is evil for actually trying to mimic alliance
    heck if u want to start root of all evil (even with all retcon) u'll find alliance traces way before horde, from fact that draenei went to hide on orc planet for 200 years without even mention of the biggest evil threat ever chasing them (not to mention their race - the eredar - is founding figure in BL in first place, draenei are the exception not the general of the race), to humans wiping out trolls whenever they see them to steal their lands and so on
    did horde do many war crimes? yes, shitload of it, but unlike alliance who don't even acknowledge them, horde does, and try to redeem and pay for it, alliance? they don't even see u have a right to exist in first place to think they need to apologize, belfs exist so alliance try to wipe them out ever few decades

    anyway now in disney wow no more war or genocide
    Lol holy crap you have to really bend over backwards to try and justify the Alliance as the only bad guy that the Horde just mimics for bad guyery. This reeks of the same kind of addled thought of Alliance players talking about Horde genocide during Cata/MoP Garrosh Horde era where the Horde was actually organized enough to be a legitimate threat.

    And let's be real and stop applying modern reality based definitions of war crimes into a fantasy MMORPG that had ONE BOOK talking about how each side treated civilians like garbage.

    It's World of WARcraft, genocide as a concept is part of the playbook of high fantasy. Every single element from Tolkein to Wizards of the Coast DnD has racial subtexts and characters/factions with genocidal motivations. Get used to it our just get out of fantasy. That's literally the reason it's CALLED FANTASY, because in the modern era genocide doesn't really happen anymore, neither does slavery. Which is why it's romanticized by shit like the Burning Legion enslaving people for greater power, or the Horde and Alliance gunning one another down with automatic machine guns in their respective MoP introductions to mimic WW2/Vietnam era warfare.

    It's a vehicle for storytelling, not a reason for you to get butthurt and whine like an insufferable fuckwhit on MMOchampion of all places lmfao.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The eponymous "war crimes" that Garrosh got accused of in War Crimes were the mistreatment of prisoners of war (e.g. the tortured Theramore survivors you see during the siege of Orgrimmar), the mistreatment of Horde citizens, the transportation and enslavement of a variety of sentient beings (e.g. the Magnataur from Northrend, Pandaren, and many beings from Pandaria), and so on. It's not about his destruction of Theramore specifically, or any of the other explicit war objectives during the Horde-Alliance conflict of Cata and MoP.

    Azeroth has no conventions of law like those made at Nuremberg or Geneva, but such concepts were explored and outlined during the trial-like convocation at the Temple of the White Tiger in War Crimes. It was a natural conclusion of the convocation, acting as an analog of the ICJ or the Hague, that such conventions did indeed apply to current and future conflicts on Azeroth.
    Admittedly it has been over 10 years since i read it and i have no desire to revisit the book. From what i recall the Celestials said they'd have called him not guilty and that it was actually about everyone's introspection (or something to that effect) With the Theramore PoWs only really spawning like a year down the line, when SoO dropped, out of nowhere so that they could eb pinned next to the Darkspear corpses.


    And i get where you're coming from, but neither the quest design nor the gameplay loop support that kind of mentality. I can't even count the amount of quests, where you're mucking about with Harpy or Dragon eggs, skinning whelps, cooking with their flesh or enslaving their children to fight for you in pet battles. Dwarves start their adventure, by hacking and slashing their way through Ice Troll children, for example. So long as you have plausible deniability of different belief systems and necessity you can get away with murder, in fiction, however all that goes out of the window when you acknowledge that the people of that world generally agree that this stuff is absolutely rancid behaviour.

    Even in DF you have the Derty Hornswald quests, which are definitely something. https://twitter.com/Portergauge/stat...99652744466432 (This is the Alpha version, they edited the text to be more self aware and "funny", but you do it anyway.)
    Last edited by sighy; 2024-06-12 at 07:38 PM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Void Elves putting goblin civilians and troll diplomats in void portals - Hey, they hadn't been out of the Horde long at that point! Horde has zero room to talk about targeting civilians though.
    The error you're making is assuming that just killing people is equal to to what the void elves were doing in this case. Eternal torment in a plane of eldritch madness is significantly worse than vanilla war crimes.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
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  14. #134
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Admittedly it has been over 10 years since i read it and i have no desire to revisit the book. From what i recall the Celestials said they'd have called him not guilty and that it was actually about everyone's introspection (or something to that effect) With the Theramore PoWs only really spawning like a year down the line, when SoO dropped, out of nowhere so that they could eb pinned next to the Darkspear corpses.
    War Crimes is an okay novel but it does end badly, and the August Celestials' take on the trial is probably the worst part of that bad ending. The trial wasn't really any finding of fact as concerns Garrosh's guilt, his crimes were many and mostly known to all - but it was to determine what the nature and extent of his punishment was to be, where it was to be, and so on. The Celestials were judging whether or not the mortal races of Azeroth could forgive and work to attempt to redeem the seemingly irredeemable, although Garrosh sort of took the wind out of the purpose given that he was able to slip the proverbial noose with the help of Kairoz.

    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    And i get where you're coming from, but neither the quest design nor the gameplay loop support that kind of mentality. I can't even count the amount of quests, where you're mucking about with Harpy or Dragon eggs, skinning whelps, cooking with their flesh or enslaving their children to fight for you in pet battles. Dwarves start their adventure, by hacking and slashing their way through Ice Troll children, for example. So long as you have plausible deniability of different belief systems and necessity you can get away with murder, in fiction, however all that goes out of the window when you acknowledge that the people of that world generally agree that this stuff is absolutely rancid behaviour.
    There's always going to be a division between gameplay and story elements along these lines - scalp X harpies, Pet Battles, and collect Y moose antlers aren't to be taken as canonical happenings in terms of WoW's overarching story.

    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Even in DF you have the Derty Hornswald quests, which are definitely something. https://twitter.com/Portergauge/stat...99652744466432 (This is the Alpha version, they edited the text to be more self aware and "funny", but you do it anyway.)
    I don't think gnolls really rise to the level of "protected entities" insofar as Azeroth is concerned - there's no one in-game calling for "gnoll rights," and where they're not outright viewed as vermin, they're generally antagonistic and borderline animalistic. Now speaking as a real-world human, I'd look askance at the wholesale butchery of a decidedly sentient species - but that kind of realism only stretches so far in a video-game or fantasy context. I mean the Old Gods and their minions are sentient, too; but also entirely inimical to life as the Azerothians know it.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    [I]There's always going to be a division between gameplay and story elements along these lines - scalp X harpies, Pet Battles, and collect Y moose antlers aren't to be taken as canonical happenings in terms of WoW's overarching story. I don't think gnolls really rise to the level of "protected entities" insofar as Azeroth is concerned - there's no one in-game calling for "gnoll rights," and where they're not outright viewed as vermin, they're generally antagonistic and borderline animalistic. Now speaking as a real-world human, I'd look askance at the wholesale butchery of a decidedly sentient species - but that kind of realism only stretches so far in a video-game or fantasy context. I mean the Old Gods and their minions are sentient, too; but also entirely inimical to life as the Azerothians know it.
    There is some suspension of disbelief to be had, of course, however the quests and the gameplay loop are your primary points of contact, with the world, in this RPG. Having people ask you to do things, which according to their established cultural norms are wrong creates a level of narrative dissonance, between the show and tell parts of the stories Blizzard is trying to tell, which then hinders stories such as Teldrassil, which attempt to explore the topic, in a more serious light, when you go full murderhobo any time someone asks with a few coins.

    And if you genuinely look at it how much of a difference really is there between Centaur, Quillboar, Tauren, Gnolls, Night Elves, Murlocs, etc. outside some being members of world superpowers and others not?

    As a disclaimer. I'm not against conflict or dark subject matters, however the way you interact with it, how it relates to the world you've bult and the characters involved are just a few things that have to be take into account. Cataclysm zones in general did a good job, in makng the stuff you're doing feel like it contributes to the story being told, with Gilneas-Silverpine featuring one of the best depictions of a war, in the franchise. Both as the Gilneans doing their best to scramble for defense as things go from bad to worse and the Forsaken looking to get payback for Gilneas turning it's back on them during the 3rd war, while avoiding Garrosh's attempts to make it a meatgrinder.

  16. #136
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    There is some suspension of disbelief to be had, of course, however the quests and the gameplay loop are your primary points of contact, with the world, in this RPG. Having people ask you to do things, which according to their established cultural norms are wrong creates a level of narrative dissonance, between the show and tell parts of the stories Blizzard is trying to tell, which then hinders stories such as Teldrassil, which attempt to explore the topic, in a more serious light, when you go full murderhobo any time someone asks with a few coins.

    And if you genuinely look at it how much of a difference really is there between Centaur, Quillboar, Tauren, Gnolls, Night Elves, Murlocs, etc. outside some being members of world superpowers and others not?

    As a disclaimer. I'm not against conflict or dark subject matters, however the way you interact with it, how it relates to the world you've bult and the characters involved are just a few things that have to be take into account. Cataclysm zones in general did a good job, in makng the stuff you're doing feel like it contributes to the story being told, with Gilneas-Silverpine featuring one of the best depictions of a war, in the franchise. Both as the Gilneans doing their best to scramble for defense as things go from bad to worse and the Forsaken looking to get payback for Gilneas turning it's back on them during the 3rd war, while avoiding Garrosh's attempts to make it a meatgrinder.
    My assumption has always been that filler quests (collect/kill X of Y type quests) are decidedly non-canon, whereas connecting and capstone-type quests, which they now lump under Campaign quests, are canon. Of course, there are also those side quests that straddle the middle ground between banal and important, but as long as the quest is telling a story and not just a prototypical "fetch me 8 bear anuses" style quest I'd put it under canon. You can pretty easily tell which quests are filler, and which quests have narrative importance - although I will say WoW had gotten a bit better about the outright filler in more recent expansions.

    As for the various conflicts with sentient and quasi-sentient beings, I'd probably put it down to which races show the ability to be reasoned with, and which ones are simply an abject nuisance that has shown little to no penchant for higher-order reason. Gnolls, quillboar, murlocs, kobolds, and the other various "monstrous" humanoids generally can't be bothered to sue for peace, agree to terms, or try to reach equitable arrangements - they simply attack until beaten down to a point where they can't anymore. There are exceptions, of course, like the Desolace centaur tribes that are capable of reason and with whom the major factions do eventually strike peace in Cata.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My assumption has always been that filler quests (collect/kill X of Y type quests) are decidedly non-canon, whereas connecting and capstone-type quests, which they now lump under Campaign quests, are canon. Of course, there are also those side quests that straddle the middle ground between banal and important, but as long as the quest is telling a story and not just a prototypical "fetch me 8 bear anuses" style quest I'd put it under canon. You can pretty easily tell which quests are filler, and which quests have narrative importance - although I will say WoW had gotten a bit better about the outright filler in more recent expansions.

    As for the various conflicts with sentient and quasi-sentient beings, I'd probably put it down to which races show the ability to be reasoned with, and which ones are simply an abject nuisance that has shown little to no penchant for higher-order reason. Gnolls, quillboar, murlocs, kobolds, and the other various "monstrous" humanoids generally can't be bothered to sue for peace, agree to terms, or try to reach equitable arrangements - they simply attack until beaten down to a point where they can't anymore. There are exceptions, of course, like the Desolace centaur tribes that are capable of reason and with whom the major factions do eventually strike peace in Cata.
    Filler quests are typically inconsequential, in either direction. A tanner hiring you to retrieve 4 bear asses is something that could happen any number of times and remain completely unremarkable.

    Them being portrayed as parenial nuisances and drooling unreasonable savages is of course intentional(because they're too lazy to come up with actual conflicts of interests or acknowledge the existing ones), but as you know from this forum there are plenty of Aliance enthusiasts, who would use that exact kind of language to describe a decent portion of the Horde races. And it isn't even applicable to Dragons and Trolls, who get some of the worst of it.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    The error you're making is assuming that just killing people is equal to to what the void elves were doing in this case. Eternal torment in a plane of eldritch madness is significantly worse than vanilla war crimes.
    While I was being facetious (which I would have thought came across), I could more seriously make the points that:

    In game, the Void Elves were used to the callousness and disregard for life typical of the Horde and thought little or nothing of the void portals. I would absolutely agree this shouldn't have been a throwaway, with the Alliance clearly indicating disgust and suspicion if not near open hostility afterwards. Maybe a campaign of "prove you're not double agents" or some such.

    In the real world of course, this was done as part of Blizzard's laughable attempts at "both sides are morally grey" and making a very low effort attempt to show the Alliance capable of evil actions as well. By having it done by former Horde members, they undermine their own point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
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  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    While I was being facetious (which I would have thought came across), I could more seriously make the points that:

    In game, the Void Elves were used to the callousness and disregard for life typical of the Horde and thought little or nothing of the void portals. I would absolutely agree this shouldn't have been a throwaway, with the Alliance clearly indicating disgust and suspicion if not near open hostility afterwards. Maybe a campaign of "prove you're not double agents" or some such.

    In the real world of course, this was done as part of Blizzard's laughable attempts at "both sides are morally grey" and making a very low effort attempt to show the Alliance capable of evil actions as well. By having it done by former Horde members, they undermine their own point.
    Yeah, i just realised that its kinda funny how void elves who entire Horde seems to blame for being “too cruel” were literally poached from the Horde itself not even a full year before the war began. You could probably still smell stench of orcs and trolls on them (before stench of dwarven ale and kultiran fish replaced it) as they threw those goblins into the Void.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Considering that this day marks the day where "nothing happened", I thought I would ask this.

    There have been instances where the alliance did bad things like war crimes, for instance: The Culling of Stratholme, the Stonespire Genocide, the ecocide in the Thunder Ridge, the Taurajo Massacre, the Purge of Dalaran, Void Elves putting goblin civilians and troll diplomats in void portals, and etc. But the Tyr's Hand peasant massacre was literally never brought up again: either by the Alliance Lordaeronians, the Argent Dawn, the Forsaken, or perhaps even Turalyon himself. Why is that or why was it made non-canon? Alliance bias?

    The peasant revolt has been non-canon for... 20 years or so. Moving on.

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