Inlining other tanks in m+

[Artemol]

as we know, VDH is quite OP and we like it (Yes, ive been VDH since launch of DHs)

The reason is quite obvious, our sigils have 2 charges.

The fix to this isnt buffing affixes or some other shit classes.

One or two simple changes to allign DH with other classes without extreme nerfs.

Illuminated Sigils Rework, instead of granting 1 additional sigil charge - it instead reduces sigil recharge by 50%.
Cycle of Binding buffed to reduce cooldown on sigils by 3 seconds * cancelling the previous nerf *

This means back to back sigilling is gone, but it doesnt affect things in the grand scheme of things.

This probably wont affect the playstyle for most players, but will affect the playstyle and comp for meta players.

All of above is coming from a VDH who has played VDH since it came out, in the top 0.1%.


THOUGHTS?

[Relapses]

Double Sigil is the only reason I play VDH. It's OP but it's also fun. Your suggestion is the obvious fix and I'm positive Blizzard knows this; they haven't done it because they know that making Sigils less spammable removes VDH's entire identity.

[schmonz]

What a surprise. Blizzard got balance issues.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I already interweave Silence with fear and stun, so I'd be fine with it. I'd also be fine with Illuminated Sigils only affecting damage sigils (but revert the other recent sigil nerfs). As long as Blizz doesn't get ham-fisted with whatever tuning they eventually do, I will continue to main VDH.

[Tech614]

Double Sigil is the only reason I play VDH. It's OP but it's also fun. Your suggestion is the obvious fix and I'm positive Blizzard knows this; they haven't done it because they know that making Sigils less spammable removes VDH's entire identity.

Illuminated Sigils could just only give 2 charges sigil of flame and ED and it would still be a great talent for M+ because the 15% parry up time is strong as hell(and this is what I think will ultimately happen if there still looks like no other viable tanks during TWW M+ testing). The OPs suggestion would make it even stronger than it currently is post COB nerf, we would be back to infinite chain CCs unless the pack lives stupidly long.

I can't believe people are reading that like it's not a buff, esp given who the OP is lmao. 50% CD reduction on sigils rofl, thats way stronger than 2 charges. Paired with reversing the COB nerf, oh lawd. You silence, you chains, you misery, you chaos nova, chains is back off CD you chains again, silence is back off CD you silence again, chains is likely off CD again if timed properly with ED/Flame and you chains again. It would basically be back to the pre nerf cc chain rofl. 45 second silence cd and 30 second chains cd with pre nerf CoB is absolutely not a nerf. This isn't even addressing the massive DPS buff it would be to have ED on a 30 second CD and Flame on 15s.

Classic Artemol fan fiction right here.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Classic Artemol fan fiction right here.

In this same light, as soon as I saw the OP of this thread, I immediately exited out of it.

This same OP who claims to be in the top 0.1% of VDH tanks who openly gloated about exploiting a bug to solo M+ dungeons to reach such rating(s).

[Puri]

Are you joking or something like that?
50% cooldown reduction - that doubles it's usages in a fight - is way stronger than having 2 charges that when using on CD just gives one single additional usage per fight.

[Relapses]

Looks like double silence sigil has been yeeted on the Beta.

DEMON HUNTER

• Illuminated Sigils now grants an additional charge only to Sigil of Flame (was all Sigils) and also reduces Sigil of Flame cooldown by 5 seconds.

[Elbob]

Looks like double silence sigil has been yeeted on the Beta.

DEMON HUNTER

• Illuminated Sigils now grants an additional charge only to Sigil of Flame (was all Sigils) and also reduces Sigil of Flame cooldown by 5 seconds.

i wish they would just make the other tanks more engaging or all tanks more rewarding to play well. Nothing really gets my vibe up like getting punched in the face. "ooo you see how good my taunts were on that pull"

[Relapses]

i wish they would just make the other tanks more engaging or all tanks more rewarding to play well. Nothing really gets my vibe up like getting punched in the face. "ooo you see how good my taunts were on that pull"

I feel like this is a recurring pattern. I try to play every tank spec for the last two expansions and it's been a frustrating experience. In SL we had Blood DK as an outlier towards the end and they (kind of) brought other tanks up to its level in DF. Prot Warr felt pretty good early on in DF but I abandoned the spec completely and switched to Fury by mid-S2. Guardian felt good S2 of this expansion but even with S2's set bonus back it feels like second fiddle compared to present-day VDH. Prot Pally without the S3 bonus legit feels awful to play, too. BDK is... fine, I guess, but I never bothered to raid so I feel like a lesser player without the Legendary. Brew's been in the shitter for so long mine is still logged out in Oribos lol. It looks like we're in for another roller coaster with TWW... I'm just not sure if I'll stick around for the ride. /shrug

[Tech614]

Well, the issue was not how good a VDH is at tanking like it was with BDK in late SL for example. This is a self made problem from blizzard because they wants so many casts and stops in pulls and doubled down on it in TWW- they added 20+ new stoppable abilities to grim batol for example rofl.

- - - Updated - - -

Brew's been in the shitter for so long mine is still logged out in Oribos lol. It looks like we're in for another roller coaster with TWW... I'm just not sure if I'll stick around for the ride. /shrug

Brewmaster would be the meta tank right now if their mob control wasn't shit(like every tank compared to current VDH) and the dps meta wasn't magic focused. They are just as immortal as VDH when played properly and do way more burst damage than VDH even after the dps nerf they ate.

That said this doesn't really translate to TWW as they don't look great on the beta right now to me lol.

[jeezusisacasual]

Well, the issue was not how good a VDH is at tanking like it was with BDK in late SL for example. This is a self made problem from blizzard because they wants so many casts and stops in pulls and doubled down on it in TWW- they added 20+ new stoppable abilities to grim batol for example rofl.

- - - Updated - - -



Brewmaster would be the meta tank right now if their mob control wasn't shit(like every tank compared to current VDH) and the dps meta wasn't magic focused. They are just as immortal as VDH when played properly and do way more burst damage then VDH even after the dps nerf they ate.

That said this doesn't really translate to TWW as they don't look great on the beta right now to me lol.

Yea i did a 12 BH yesterday on my brewmaster and finished alittle over 300k overall but the fact that my stops while good ( RoP / Paralyze etc ) are just not aoe silence levels of good or moving all the earth bolt casters. I feel like they have to introduce all those casters because a few classes have abilities to mitigate them which forces the perception of a meta similar to why so many damage events are use a defensive or your dead or almost dead in mythic dungeons.

[Vellithe]

i wish they would just make the other tanks more engaging or all tanks more rewarding to play well. Nothing really gets my vibe up like getting punched in the face. "ooo you see how good my taunts were on that pull"

I feel like there is no need to buff the other tanks, but rather to change how content itself is designed. VDH is not OP because it is OP, it's simply far too suited to dealing with the current dungeon design - since every pack has at least one jerk that will cause wipes if not CCed, the only way to make bigger pulls is through having more CC, with AoE CC being king for obvious reasons. If CC was less effective, or simply unnecessary, the reign of VDH would end without even requiring nerfs.

Either way, this amount of CCs with the current dungeon design is simply degenerate. If Blizzard intends to keep this sort of design, then VDH has to go, it's not viable to power creep all tanks so much - people like to go "buff, not nerf", but changes should always focus on outliers. Weak outliers get buffed, strong outliers get nerfed.

I sincerely wish Blizzard wakes the fuck up and just lets us do bigger pulls (if we can manage the damage intake). Being limited through every pack having multiple casters is not fun, you either end up doing babby pulls or you cheese the crap out of it through AoE CC.

[Elbob]

snip.

I agree with this pretty much fully. my statement was from a pov that they wont change how M+ feels. My MAIN gripe with tanks in current wow is the reward for playing well isnt really there. Like the difference in raid from a tank that does the bare min(to kill a fight) and a great tank is hardly felt. M+ a bit more so but utility usage is most of that, hence why dh is fun. Its impactful... something all players of all roles want to feel.

If they don't want tanks having so much control through utility they really need to find a way to make good plays stand out and the gameplay loop feel better to improve at

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I agree with this pretty much fully. my statement was from a pov that they wont change how M+ feels. My MAIN gripe with tanks in current wow is the reward for playing well isnt really there. Like the difference in raid from a tank that does the bare min(to kill a fight) and a great tank is hardly felt. M+ a bit more so but utility usage is most of that, hence why dh is fun. Its impactful... something all players of all roles want to feel.

If they don't want tanks having so much control through utility they really need to find a way to make good plays stand out and the gameplay loop feel better to improve at

I main VDH, and I don't think double sigils raised the skill cap for us. If anything, it dumbed things down, as we had so much CC we did not have to be on-point with how we used it. We had so much CC that our groups no longer had to coordinate. Double sigils should never have gone live in the first place, and needed to go for the good of the game. Now they just need to revert the SoS cd back to 60s, and Cycle cd-reduction back to 3s.

[Ealyssa]

If CC was less effective, or simply unnecessary, the reign of VDH would end without even requiring nerfs.

Not even close no. The CC/interupt was an answer to Legion's "Pull everything and kite because you can't tank that" meta.
If there's nothing to stop, you just keep pulling more. And DH tank were the top dog of the kitting meta.

It's pretty much impossible to balance not having things to CC/interupt and preventing massive pull meta at the same time.
And personnaly as a tank player I much rather tank now than what it devolved in Legion.

[LordVargK]

Not even close no. The CC/interupt was an answer to Legion's "Pull everything and kite because you can't tank that" meta.
If there's nothing to stop, you just keep pulling more. And DH tank were the top dog of the kitting meta.

It's pretty much impossible to balance not having things to CC/interupt and preventing massive pull meta at the same time.
And personnaly as a tank player I much rather tank now than what it devolved in Legion.

As of now tanks are pretty much unkillable even without the healer. The problem is, that your group is not. That's why VDHs are so good, because they can protect their group most effectively.
That's the difference between now and Legion: In Legion the tank had to kite (which I felt was very shitty) and the group had a pretty easy time if some key mob ablities were interrupted. Now it's the opposite.

There has to be a middle ground: Dungeons where tanks and the rest of the group are equally endangered. Currently there are many caster mob, AoE and cleave mobs, especially in DF dungeons. I think reducing their amount and putting some tank busters (stacking debuffs, hard hitters, mobs that slow tanks) in would help the current imbalance and make defensive talents more important for tanks, who currently can pretty much focus on damage and neglect defensive talents in m+.

But that comes with a caveat: It makes tanking harder, which already is the least liked role overall. So the changes should only really make an impact in high level keys, so 11+. The better solution would be to cap AoE, but Blizzard tried that already and it was not recieved well in the community, although that would be the most effective way to handle things. If pulling large groups does not translate in more damage, then differences in tanking performance would not be as apparent. Yet, that might affect the fun players have.

[Tech614]

Not even close no. The CC/interupt was an answer to Legion's "Pull everything and kite because you can't tank that" meta.

Wrong.

The answer to that was nerfing tank threat so you couldn't hit a mob once and infinitely hold aggro on it, and capping most AOE spells in the game.

The interrupts and stops thing is just a by product of them trying to make dungeons harder. It wasn't even that big of a thing in BFA so I don't know why you're claiming it was an answer to legion M+. Even SL stop requirements where no where near dragonflight ones.