Sometimes Less is more.

[Zodiark]

I have been playing games for decades now. One of my first PC games was Diablo. I enjoyed it. The simplicity of the game was appealing. I always enjoyed sword and sorcery type games and had an affinity for battling the armies of darkness. However after recently playing a few hours on D4 tinkering with some of the new stuff in S4, etc. A thought occurred to me. While it is very enjoyable wiping out huge swarms of monsters sometimes I feel like in doing so it waters them down. After a while I can't tell if I'm killing a skeleton or a zombie or an undead bandit or whatever.

I feel like this is a problem that has permeated most of gaming by this point. I'm not really sure what the solution is. I first started thinking this while playing Aliens: Fireteam Elite. You are basically swarmed on each mission with so many bugs that they completely loose their menacing aura at some point. What made me a fan of the Alien franchise was a love for the original movie. I suppose one solution would be to play a single player survival horror game set in the Alien franchise. But when it comes to Diablo there is no such alternative.

So yeah. Idk sometimes while I do enjoy it, I wonder what it might be like playing a game in a Diablo world where there were much less swarms but each individual monster or small pack was that much more meaningful.

[Ghostile]

Wasn't not getting swarmed by millions of mobs the main complaint back when the game came out?
But yeah, it's kinda shame the ARPG genre has gone into "push button, kill a million mobs, receive legendary, repeat"

[Biomega]

Well, Action RPGs have diversified a bit in the age of Dark Souls etc.

We basically have two camps now: skill-based AARPGs with dangerous but relatively few enemies that require you to mostly engage with in-combat, reactive decision making; and stat-based AARPGs with hordes of enemies that you mostly engage with outside of combat through proactive planning and stat/gear allocation.

Of course both types also have the respective other element in them still (i.e. you still do stats and builds in Dark-Souls-like games, and you still need to move and react in combat in Diablo-style games) but they are deemphasized.

I get that some people perceive that negatively as they'd rather have a happily joined middle ground than two extremes. That's a reasonable complaint. But most of the market is moving towards the kind of segmentation where you get very clear aspects of either one or the other.

The above poster is entirely correct: a lot of people want Diablo-style games to be about mowing down hordes upon hordes of enemies in no time flat. They want to zip-zap-zoop across the map, leaving destruction in their wake. If anything but bosses takes more than 10 seconds to kill, they get grumpy.

Part of that is what they refer to as the "efficiency bet" from players: i.e. you deal with the RNG-based loot system by maximizing your efficiency, so you maximize rewards over time and therefore your positive RNG outcomes. Slower-paced games tend to have much more deterministic loot for that same reason, so you don't feel you keep wasting your time fighting these tough battles only to have loot RNG fall on the bad side. Whereas with a game where loot is about large numbers, enemies also have to be about large numbers in order to compensate.

And it's the RNG loot that keeps things going for these kinds of games, so you can't really change that too much. If loot was more deterministic in Diablo-style games, everyone would quite after a week of blasting because they have all the gear. That's fine for a single-player game - not so much for an online, live-service game.

Me personally, I prefer the way D4 works right now: massive density, quick kill times, offload most of the cognitive work to theory and setup rather than combat movement and skilled button presses. I am a brains guy, not a fingers guy. I don't like having to time my skills and do frame-perfect dodge rolls and whatnot. That's not the kind of game I enjoy. Diablo lets me play that way and still maintain a high pace of action, because the actual combat awareness required is fairly low (until extreme levels of difficulty, anyway) compared to the impact of proper planning, building, and gearing.

[nvaelz]

D4 will surely turn into D3 more and more, I would assume the D4 devs listen rigorously to the sweaty twitch tryhards who want the game to be an incremental meatgrinder.

Always enjoyed loot anticipation the most from Diablo games, D4 seriously lacks that, it's all about optimal routing and meta specs.

[Biomega]

Always enjoyed loot anticipation the most from Diablo games, D4 seriously lacks that, it's all about optimal routing and meta specs.

When was that not the case?

Diablo... 1?

If you think D2 or 3 were any different in that respect, that is likely purely because you simply didn't care - and that's cool, but you can just continue to not care in D4, too. In fact, if anything, D4 is the most you-can-just-not-care-y game of the bunch. Just play it at your own pace, you'll still get everything you want in a relatively reasonable amount of time. Good luck solo'ing your way to an Enigma in D2 - getting an uber unique in D4 is nothing by comparison.

[potis]

When was that not the case?

Diablo... 1?

If you think D2 or 3 were any different in that respect, that is likely purely because you simply didn't care

They just dont know.

This is a general problem with gaming, especially games that are a series.

"Well when i played 20 years ago" and you were a massive noob that hasnt finished highschool, but now you are just a massive noob that pays taxes.

Its the same shit with WoW, comments about Classic in 2019-2020, like the rest never played Vanilla and didnt experience the actual game, when it mattered with the gazzilion bugs and fun shit, charge in water, dead! Thanks Blizzard, good patch!

The only thing i feel difference in gameplay with all 3 games is just the min/maxing.

D2 min/maxing (Although more Runewords were introduced when the game wasnt as relevant anymore which made it even more pointless) took longer, farm whatever drops of value trade for your actual shit, but for what reason? You can kill the Uber Versions with more basic gear, why would i play 100 hours more to get relevant drops to convert to runes, to get, 10% more damage on a Barb with 85 resist, like 90% reduction, that smacks the shit out of everything?

Oh ye, PvP, back then we were all noobs, compared to what they do today with the new Runewords and Rare items, but still, but yeah, after you try bit, 1 shotting 99% of everyone with your overgeared character, only to meet some Paladin thats simply better at PvP with equal gear.

D3 feeling is the same, if the top players are clearing 102-105 GR, the noobs are complaining about GR80 and set balance, i got lucky at friend boosting me to 70, got lucky with Ancient weapon from rare to-->Unique conversion for my build, and got to GR 95 in 6 hours played (Was actually rather disgusting to be honest), i am not gonna play another 100 hours to improve gems, burn gems, to put to 102-105, like fuck that.

D4 is exactly that also, i played 35 hours the first 5 days (work from home shenanigans), got Seasonal done, which means Tormented Lilith, Tormented Duriel, the seasonal rep, and it was something like Pit 90 then, quit for a week, restarted cause friend, then quit for another week, restarted a 3rd character , a Rogue cause of another friend, same shit, 30 hours played, mostly done, then played a few extra hours cause Rogue was interestingly scaling fun, Pit 126, why tryhard for 140s and 150s for perfect GA rolls and shit, fuck that, i barely even wear 12/12 items.

And it comes with knowledge of the game, i never cared in D2 back in 2002 and in 2003 with 1.10 to get a specific item, maybe the first few hours cause Topaz for MF

Then it was just Meph/Pindle runs, whatever drops, convert to currency, SoJ for pre 1.10, Ist for 1.10, especially the first 2 months of the patch.

I still remember that specific Friday, finish classes at 2pm, finish some pre-extra lessons math questions, pop Diablo 2 at 3:30pm, by 5pm i had found, 2 Tal armors, 1 Immo armor, 3 Stormshield, perfect ethereal Titans, 1 Ber rune, 1 Jah rune and a ton of other items i dont remember, 2 weeks after of basically trading Ali Baba and other MF items and Titans for Ist and Ist to stack MF and more gear, playing with scraps!

Only for Friday night/Saturday to trade everything for my Enigma/Breath of the Dying.

TLDR : Your irrelevant low knowledge/skilled gameplay 20 years ago does not represent reality.

[Hotmail]

Diablo early game always had this chill vibe of exploring a horror-filled world and slaying dangerous monsters one by one.

Diablo endgame was always about annihilating swarms of nameless monsters hunting for that 0.1% drop.

I don't think anything has changed, other than the players wanting more of those dopamine hits that keep them playing. This has ironically resulted in loot systems that get worse and worse as they move further and further away from D2's, but that's a story for another time.

[Fencers]

I feel like this is a problem that has permeated most of gaming by this point. I'm not really sure what the solution is.

No Rest For the Wicked and Superfuse are ARPGs in the style of loot-based, limited linear Diablo. However, they emphasize an approach to enemy and encounter design that is more deliberate and fewer in quantity.

The upcoming Path of Exile 2, also supposedly seeks to introduce a more deliberate sense of encounter design to the genre.

Perhaps those games offer something closer to your desire.

[Biomega]

The upcoming Path of Exile 2, also supposedly seeks to introduce a more deliberate sense of encounter design to the genre.

We'll see if/how that happens, and how long it'll stick. I swear no one wants to ZOOM ZOOM more than PoE players, I'd be very surprised if somehow PoE2 shifts that community desire.

Pleasantly surprised, of course.

[Ereb]

But yeah, it's kinda shame the ARPG genre has gone into "push button, kill a million mobs, receive legendary, repeat"

That's kind of always how it's been though. I did that exact same thing in D2 for hours and hours and hours

[potis]

We'll see if/how that happens, and how long it'll stick. I swear no one wants to ZOOM ZOOM more than PoE players, I'd be very surprised if somehow PoE2 shifts that community desire.

Pleasantly surprised, of course.

PoE 2 design is a clear Tencent "Make more money" approach, the whole 100 bosses at campaign, screams of "HERE CONSOLE PLAYERS, SINGLE PLAYER, BUY SKINS!".

But they cant fuck over 12 years of PoE, which is why the game is taking forever, to introduce PoE mechanics for the zoom zoom.

We see how it goes, thats what they said they would do at first, then when they announced PoE and PoE2 are gonna be different completely last year, it was obvious the Tencent acquisition has finished and they are going the $$ way.

[Nihilist74]

As opposed to a stealth game where you are sneaking around trying to avoid more than one mob. Games like that are interesting but they are not very relaxing for me.
A game like diablo IV feels like almost like an arcade game to me where you can run around and slaughter a million monsters at once which is pretty fun.
I also love Skyrim which feels like a happy medium for me of slaughtering a couple mobs at once and sneaking around.
Stealth games like Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War are very stressful for me with all of the sneaking around and avoiding mobs.

[Zodiark]

No Rest For the Wicked and Superfuse are ARPGs in the style of loot-based, limited linear Diablo. However, they emphasize an approach to enemy and encounter design that is more deliberate and fewer in quantity.

The upcoming Path of Exile 2, also supposedly seeks to introduce a more deliberate sense of encounter design to the genre.

Perhaps those games offer something closer to your desire.

Yeah idk maybe. I do like the sound of more purposeful encounters not just blobs of enemies being thrown at me. Like I said, most of the time when all hell breaks loose I can't tell wtf I'm even killing.

- - - Updated - - -

As opposed to a stealth game where you are sneaking around trying to avoid more than one mob. Games like that are interesting but they are not very relaxing for me.
A game like diablo IV feels like almost like an arcade game to me where you can run around and slaughter a million monsters at once which is pretty fun.
I also love Skyrim which feels like a happy medium for me of slaughtering a couple mobs at once and sneaking around.
Stealth games like Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War are very stressful for me with all of the sneaking around and avoiding mobs.

I get it. I don't like being forced to constantly sneak around. That was kind of my problem with Deus Ex Machina, the game started out with too much sneaking and I couldn't get into it. I LIKE having the OPTION to do stealth missions or what not but not FORCED. Sneaking should be an OPTION not a REQUIREMENT.

- - - Updated - - -

They just dont know.

This is a general problem with gaming, especially games that are a series.

"Well when i played 20 years ago" and you were a massive noob that hasnt finished highschool, but now you are just a massive noob that pays taxes.

Its the same shit with WoW, comments about Classic in 2019-2020, like the rest never played Vanilla and didnt experience the actual game, when it mattered with the gazzilion bugs and fun shit, charge in water, dead! Thanks Blizzard, good patch!

The only thing i feel difference in gameplay with all 3 games is just the min/maxing.

D2 min/maxing (Although more Runewords were introduced when the game wasnt as relevant anymore which made it even more pointless) took longer, farm whatever drops of value trade for your actual shit, but for what reason? You can kill the Uber Versions with more basic gear, why would i play 100 hours more to get relevant drops to convert to runes, to get, 10% more damage on a Barb with 85 resist, like 90% reduction, that smacks the shit out of everything?

Oh ye, PvP, back then we were all noobs, compared to what they do today with the new Runewords and Rare items, but still, but yeah, after you try bit, 1 shotting 99% of everyone with your overgeared character, only to meet some Paladin thats simply better at PvP with equal gear.

D3 feeling is the same, if the top players are clearing 102-105 GR, the noobs are complaining about GR80 and set balance, i got lucky at friend boosting me to 70, got lucky with Ancient weapon from rare to-->Unique conversion for my build, and got to GR 95 in 6 hours played (Was actually rather disgusting to be honest), i am not gonna play another 100 hours to improve gems, burn gems, to put to 102-105, like fuck that.

D4 is exactly that also, i played 35 hours the first 5 days (work from home shenanigans), got Seasonal done, which means Tormented Lilith, Tormented Duriel, the seasonal rep, and it was something like Pit 90 then, quit for a week, restarted cause friend, then quit for another week, restarted a 3rd character , a Rogue cause of another friend, same shit, 30 hours played, mostly done, then played a few extra hours cause Rogue was interestingly scaling fun, Pit 126, why tryhard for 140s and 150s for perfect GA rolls and shit, fuck that, i barely even wear 12/12 items.

And it comes with knowledge of the game, i never cared in D2 back in 2002 and in 2003 with 1.10 to get a specific item, maybe the first few hours cause Topaz for MF

Then it was just Meph/Pindle runs, whatever drops, convert to currency, SoJ for pre 1.10, Ist for 1.10, especially the first 2 months of the patch.

I still remember that specific Friday, finish classes at 2pm, finish some pre-extra lessons math questions, pop Diablo 2 at 3:30pm, by 5pm i had found, 2 Tal armors, 1 Immo armor, 3 Stormshield, perfect ethereal Titans, 1 Ber rune, 1 Jah rune and a ton of other items i dont remember, 2 weeks after of basically trading Ali Baba and other MF items and Titans for Ist and Ist to stack MF and more gear, playing with scraps!

Only for Friday night/Saturday to trade everything for my Enigma/Breath of the Dying.

TLDR : Your irrelevant low knowledge/skilled gameplay 20 years ago does not represent reality.

SO reading all this I basically share some of those same sentiments. This is one of my issues with WoW and Diablo as well as several other games. If you have decent gear and know your class and play it well you can clear most of the content available. Pushing another 100 or so hours to get a little stronger just to shave some time off kills doesn't appeal to me in a game.

If you equate this to real life that would be like doing 2-3x the amount of work at your job just to make a marginal amount more money. Or look at it another way, it's almost like working twice as hard just to leave 10 minutes early. Instead rather than killing yourself it's just easier to work at a comfortable pace.