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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I call bullshit on this. If it weren't profitable, Blizzard would have let things go into maintenance mode and moved on to the next project, like they already do for their many other games like D3, SC2 and Heroes of the Storm. They wouldn't bother making more expansion packs if it weren't worth it.

    It's clearly profitable enough that they even put resources into making more versions like Classic and Seasons of Discovery.
    I never said it wasn’t profitable. In fact, I’m quite certain it is. That’s not the point, though. I’m talking about the popularity and relevance of the franchise as a whole. How relevant do you think the Warcraft brand would be if instead of WoW they would have just kept making expansions to WC3?

  2. #202
    Stood in the Fire Merpish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I never said it wasn’t profitable. In fact, I’m quite certain it is. That’s not the point, though. I’m talking about the popularity and relevance of the franchise as a whole. How relevant do you think the Warcraft brand would be if instead of WoW they would have just kept making expansions to WC3?
    Completely irrelevant. No one cares about RTSs anymore.
    Everyone on the internet is a dishonest actor.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I never said it wasn’t profitable. In fact, I’m quite certain it is. That’s not the point, though. I’m talking about the popularity and relevance of the franchise as a whole. How relevant do you think the Warcraft brand would be if instead of WoW they would have just kept making expansions to WC3?
    RTS is a dead genre mate

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I never said it wasn’t profitable. In fact, I’m quite certain it is. That’s not the point, though. I’m talking about the popularity and relevance of the franchise as a whole. How relevant do you think the Warcraft brand would be if instead of WoW they would have just kept making expansions to WC3?
    Imagine thinking more warcraft games woulda been more popular then WoW.
    lol.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    So to avoid hurting the franchise they need to... end wow?

    "Warcraft is more then just wow"
    Uhuh, when.
    Warcraft has been wow more then its been anything else.
    Warcraft was an rts for 8 years.
    Warcraft has been am MMO for almost 20 years.
    Uhuh, but we should shut down wow cause its past its peak, and HURTING THE FRANCHISE
    The warcraft brand/franchise does not languish by continueing to support it, idk what backwards ass world you live in.
    You really need to get your head out of your ass. Who said "end WoW"? I certainly didn't. Seems to be surviving just fine in a splintered state as is. There's no reason to think that a new flagship title necessitates the end of WoW.

    You also have a really narrow idea of what "franchise" means. The RTS's still exist and are still played. There has also been a cinematic offshoot, as well as a handful of tangential games related to the franchise like Hearthstone and HotS. And of course all the other non-video games and merchandise. Sure, the flagship video game has typically been the main driving force for the franchise's popularity, but Warcraft has always and will always be more than just WoW.

    And yes, the franchise very much languishes when it's making no effort to appeal to newer audiences. It's not about stopping support for WoW, it's about this mentality that you must continue support for WoW at the cost of progressing the franchise. That's what so many of the comments in this thread have suggested, that WoW should have no sequel. OP didn't even specify it needing to be an MMO...

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    You really need to get your head out of your ass. Who said "end WoW"? I certainly didn't. Seems to be surviving just fine in a splintered state as is. There's no reason to think that a new flagship title necessitates the end of WoW.

    You also have a really narrow idea of what "franchise" means. The RTS's still exist and are still played. There has also been a cinematic offshoot, as well as a handful of tangential games related to the franchise like Hearthstone and HotS. And of course all the other non-video games and merchandise. Sure, the flagship video game has typically been the main driving force for the franchise's popularity, but Warcraft has always and will always be more than just WoW.

    And yes, the franchise very much languishes when it's making no effort to appeal to newer audiences. It's not about stopping support for WoW, it's about this mentality that you must continue support for WoW at the cost of progressing the franchise. That's what so many of the comments in this thread have suggested, that WoW should have no sequel. OP didn't even specify it needing to be an MMO...
    WoW is a MMO so it stands to reason that any sequel to a MMO would also be a MMO. If he'd asked "Should Blizzard ever broaden the Warcraft IP?" you'd have a point (and that's the part of your argument that I agree with). Blizzard could probably be doing more than just WoW to strengthen the IP but it's not exactly a bad thing that WoW is the bread and butter because it is, apparently, fairly profitable on its own. Personally, I think the real way to strengthen Warcraft's IP would be through something analogous to Riot's Arcane TV series.

  7. #207
    There are two increasingly relevant business reasons that I think are rarely talked about for this issue:

    1. Development cost. It's taking an entire expansion's R&D time/money to update a rep system. The older the game becomes, the more expensive it becomes to update simple things because more and more junk is layered on top of it.

    2. Hiring talent. Blizzard is already infamous for its shitty pay and benefits compared to its competition, which means most of their employees, even at nearly senior levels, are often industry newcomers or lack much experience. WoW's engine, which AFAIK is entirely proprietary and used for this single game, brings the CD Project Red problem--every time they hire someone, it takes months--sometimes the better part of an entire year--before they can meaningfully contribute to anything. This includes engineering, quest and instance design and implementation, art, etc.

    Eventually, the game is not going to be enough. I agree it's stupid to jump ship immediately, but at some point, the above in addition to the exponential growth in home computing capabilities will make this thing so obsolete the gameplay ceases to be competitive from a consumer perspective.

    Additionally, the "it's good enough" mindset was a very Acti-Blizz mindset for putting in the barest effort to maximize financial result. I am not saying the following is definitely true, but there may be some room for the consideration that Microsoft doesn't view IPs the same way.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Merpish View Post
    Completely irrelevant. No one cares about RTSs anymore.
    It's not irrelevant because that was the fucking point. There would still be dedicated Warcraft fans buying RTS expansions today, but that alone doesn't mean that the franchise (or genre) is still relevant.

    Hell, plenty of people here arguing for no WoW sequel believe that the MMO genre is basically dead as well, that being the reason why they think Blizzard shouldn't invest in an MMO sequel to WoW. They seem to forget that great games can energize niche/dead genres. Were turn based RPG's dominating the market 5 years ago? No, but then BG3 came along and what used to be a niche/dead genre found increased popularity. WoW certainly didn't succeed solely on the MMO market that existed before its release, it single-handedly brought a niche market into the mainstream.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    WoW is a MMO so it stands to reason that any sequel to a MMO would also be a MMO. If he'd asked "Should Blizzard ever broaden the Warcraft IP?" you'd have a point (and that's the part of your argument that I agree with). Blizzard could probably be doing more than just WoW to strengthen the IP but it's not exactly a bad thing that WoW is the bread and butter because it is, apparently, fairly profitable on its own. Personally, I think the real way to strengthen Warcraft's IP would be through something analogous to Riot's Arcane TV series.
    The OP was pretty vague, I'll give you that, but a sequel/successor to one work doesn't necessarily need to be in the same medium. WoW definitely continued the story that ended in WC3, right? In the same way that a movie can be a sequel or prequel to a show (or vice versa), a game of one genre can have it's themes and story continue in another genre.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    The OP was pretty vague, I'll give you that, but a sequel/successor to one work doesn't necessarily need to be in the same medium. WoW definitely continued the story that ended in WC3, right? In the same way that a movie can be a sequel or prequel to a show (or vice versa), a game of one genre can have it's themes and story continue in another genre.
    Maybe? I have a feeling it wouldn't be called "World of Warcraft" were that the case, though I wouldn't put it past a marketing schmuck to lean into the "World of" part of the title being a synonym for "cinematic universe."

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I never said it wasn’t profitable. In fact, I’m quite certain it is. That’s not the point, though. I’m talking about the popularity and relevance of the franchise as a whole. How relevant do you think the Warcraft brand would be if instead of WoW they would have just kept making expansions to WC3?
    Relevant to who?

    To the mainstream? To the fans? To me? To you?

    Relevance is relative. If you want any aging game to be relevant in ever changing markets then you're obviously in the wrong forums, since you're literally in said aging game's forums trying to make a point that has no relevance to the people who are here.

    Since you're in MMO-C discussing Warcraft, a Warcraft 3 expansion today would absolutely be relevant to all the fans who are discussing said franchise. And if profitability isn't the point, then modern mainstream appeal isn't relevant either. You can try to make a point but it's pointless in the place you're making it.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2024-07-11 at 02:39 AM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Relevant to who?

    To the mainstream? To the fans? To me? To you?
    I've specified this several times now...

    Relevant to the general, mainstream community (not even just gamers). It's a sentiment that many around here at least understand on some level. Go look at any of the threads that had to do with the Warcraft movie and you'll see people noting that if the film had come out earlier, closer to WoW's popularity and mainstream peak, it might have at least garnered more attention.

    I understand that you only care about what Warcraft means to you. That's pretty much the driving force behind most of the arguments against a sequel (I don't want to lose all my stuff, I don't want to play a different game). Obviously WoW (and Warcraft by extension) is important to people who still play it. To a lot of people it's also now "oh yeah, that's that game I used to play like a decade ago". What I'm saying, since apparently it needs to be spelled out as simply as possible, is that the franchise would do well to develop a new flagship title (a direct or spiritual successor to WoW) so that Warcraft can reenter the mainstream and perhaps mean something to younger generations beyond "hmmm, I think that was a game that my dad used to play".

    As for profitability, again I bring to your attention the FACT that new games create hype and bring in new players in a way that expansions to 20 year old games simply can't do. It's a fact that WoW has contracted to a pretty niche market. Even if 3-7mil is still pretty big compared to its contemporaries in the genre, it's still a tiny percentage of the total number of players that once played this game, and again there are millions more young players for whom WoW is completely irrelevant because of its age. Like I said (though it seems to have gone over your head), WoW still being profitable isn't really relevant, it's that by not developing a new flagship title for the franchise Blizzard is leaving A LOT of potential profit on the table. And now you're starting to type "oh, but that's a risk so Blizzard should just stick with the safe profit and just keep developing WoW", and then AGAIN I bring up WC3 and point out that thanks to Blizzard taking a risk on pivoting to what at the time was a small, niche market they were able to far exceed expectations in terms of popularity and profitability compared to if they had taken the safe, easy way and just kept making expansions for an already popular game.

    And yeah, maybe you're totally fine with Warcraft fading into obscurity over the next 5-10 years while other, much older, franchises continue to reenter the mainstream with new flagship titles because all you care about is wanting to maintain your transmog and mount collection. On the other hand, I think the Warcraft IP has more to offer than that. Not just to me, but to countless other players.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2024-07-11 at 03:38 AM.

  12. #212
    Why would they waste money on a new updated engine for better graphics and pretty effects when they can just keep stacking on what they have? If it aint broke dont fix it. If anything they can do a timeskip and put us 100 years in the future.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Players love their fomo, blizzard has been removing it and almost every time gotten clapback.
    I still remember legion them wanting to bring back old pvp sets through a vicious saddle like system, and the community BLEW up.
    There is certainly a pro-FOMO group, I tend to believe it's a vocal minority rather than representative of the population as a whole.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I've specified this several times now...

    Relevant to the general, mainstream community (not even just gamers). It's a sentiment that many around here at least understand on some level. Go look at any of the threads that had to do with the Warcraft movie and you'll see people noting that if the film had come out earlier, closer to WoW's popularity and mainstream peak, it might have at least garnered more attention.
    Or it was a shit movie that even Warcraft fans were iffy about. None of my WoW friends even cared about the movie. But the same friends, who don't play League, all watched Arcane. And League is just as old and 'irrelevant' as WoW. Same as Castlevania. Who gives a fuck avout the game? But the animated series was good enough that people talked about it. So no, you aren't making a good point, just an observation that the Warcraft movie sucked.

    I understand that you only care about what Warcraft means to you.
    No, you don't understand. You assume. You have not asked my opinion, you don't even know my stance. How do you understand?

    The rest of your post is all assumptions, so no point in going further. Come back when you actually are ready for a conversation with me, instead of having one with yourself.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    There are literally tens of millions of potential players out there (some who already moved away from WoW but could come back for a newer iteration, and others who were too young to get into WoW during its heyday but would be down for a new game).
    Which is why other companies apparently try and make new MMOs to tap into this potential market. Of course everyone hopes to be the one toe either topple the giants or at least secure a good share. I think "New World" shows how it isn't easy, even with a mega budget.

    But why would people who moved away come back to a WoW2? Maybe they hate Blizzard as a rule. Maybe they would only play it with visuals like the Unreal engine. Maybe that actually drives WoW 1 players away.

    That said.....to me, except a "modern Unreal like" engine and visuals would be the only thing I can think of that a WoW2 would do, that a WoW cannot do. And that counts me already out as a customer.

    Or can people give more reasons what WoW2 could do that xpacs for WoW cannot

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I've specified this several times now...

    It's a fact that WoW has contracted to a pretty niche market. Even if 3-7mil is still pretty big compared to its contemporaries in the genre, it's still a tiny percentage of the total number of players that once played this game, a
    Well..it is not a tiny percentage compared to the 12 million it topped out during WotLK, but a tiny percentage indeed to the over 100 million that ever created an account.

    In the end, we can all argue our case passionately with zero actual market research and a lot of wishful thinking.Sure, companies can lose touch with what the market wants or what market is out there (Blizzard at one point saying there will be no "Classic" WoW - but Blizzard also recognizing the mobile market with Diablo Immortal and fans hating them for it)

    I am in the corner of the people who say: New MMOs keep failing 90% (at least if they try to reach WoW scale) and the demand for a WoW2 does not justify the costs vs the risk atm.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post



    I don’t have to ignore them. Those numbers are tiny compared to the franchise’s past popularity. Sounds more like you’re the one ignoring numbers in order to fabricate a particular narrative.

    - - - Updated - - -
    You mean back when the retention was abysmal and wow lost nearly 90% of the people who tried it?
    The 12 million subs was anything but stable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post

    I only view Warcraft up to MoP as canon.

  17. #217
    The main problem is that the franchise had its narrative climax with the rise and fall of Arthas Menethil, which was basically the whole tragic journey of a "Darth Vader" antihero in a nutshell. It wasn't very original, but they managed to present it quite entertainingly with WC3 and up until Wrath of the Lich King. That was the golden age of WarCraft, where even non-gamers recognized the characters of the IP because they were so iconic. Like Super Mario, Master Chief, Doom Guy or Lara Croft.

    After that, Blizzard didn't really have a story arc anymore because they killed off their most popular villain. Everything since Cataclysm has been centered around insider lore and nostalgia, because who knew who Deathwing was aside from a named creature in WC2. Or the Sha. Or the Zandalari. They split their newer storytelling into single expansions with nearly full disclosure each time. Good for fans and nerds, but kind of boring or irrelevant to newcomers. "I thought I could fight the Lich King and not some barely known or completely reinterpreted villain from a game from three decades ago that didn't have a fleshed out story at the time."

    Maybe the trilogy of War Within, Midnight and the Last Titan will bring back some sort of bigger and epic story continuity.
    Last edited by noctim2; 2024-07-11 at 06:49 AM.

  18. #218
    Stood in the Fire Sinaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ereb View Post
    "We have the #1 game on the mmorpg marker and have had so for 20+ years now and continue to enjoy success on the grandest scale. But sure let's just scrap that all together and waste millions of dollars and years of work to create a brand new one instead!"

    Does nobody else see how stupid that sounds? Why do some of you think a WoW is even remotely possible in this reality?
    If someone succeeded in dethroning WoW in a big way, it wouldn't sound so stupid anymore. The next leap for MMOS is procedural AI content generation, I expect to see someone produce a game like that in this decade. WoW2 could be announced shortly after.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The rest of your post is all assumptions, so no point in going further. Come back when you actually are ready for a conversation with me, instead of having one with yourself.
    I honestly don't care to have a conversation with you because you've obviously got your head so far up your own ass that you don't even understand the nature of this discussion. There are assumptions in my post? Yeah no shit, this is a discussion revolving around the pros and cons of the completely theoretical scenario "should Blizzard make a sequel to WoW". The entire first part of your own post is all assumptions anyway, with a bit of anecdotal evidence to boot. Looking back at your other posts in this thread and you seem very much comfortable putting forth assumptions to try to make a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    MMORPG has become a niche genre that lacks appeal to most modern gamers.
    I don't disagree, but definitely an assumption. That being said, I've already mentioned how turn based RPG's were a niche genre that lacked appeal to most modern gamers UNTIL the right game came along and then you have a highly popular, highly profitable GotY. Before WoW came out MMOs were a niche genre that lacked appeal to most gamers at the time, and look where we are now...

    Either way, a new title would be looking to release 5-10 years down the road, so ANY discussion on what genres may or may not be popular down the road is completely speculative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It is purely running on sunken cost at this point.
    Is it now? And how would you KNOW that?

    Now, there's a difference between making educated guesses around concepts that are based on recognized trends vs spouting completely baseless nonsense (like the game is running purely on sunk cost nowadays). Tapping into new markets can increase engagement with a brand, accepting the fact that popularity for a product tends to decline over time, recognizing the value of a brand beyond a single product, and acknowledging that younger gamers don't usually gravitate to very old games aren't particularly controversial concepts. Those are basically the arguments I've put forth for why a sequel flagship title for the franchise

    If you don't want to engage with speculation then a.) you're a fucking hypocrite and b.) you're in the wrong thread.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I honestly don't care to have a conversation with you because you've obviously got your head so far up your own ass that you don't even understand the nature of this discussion. There are assumptions in my post? Yeah no shit, this is a discussion revolving around the pros and cons of the completely theoretical scenario "should Blizzard make a sequel to WoW". The entire first part of your own post is all assumptions anyway, with a bit of anecdotal evidence to boot. Looking back at your other posts in this thread and you seem very much comfortable putting forth assumptions to try to make a point.
    We can make assumptions about the game all we want, you're free to do that. But you were making assumptions about my position and saying you understand me, when you don't know me at al. You think I'm the one with a head up their ass?

    Consider your argument here. Do you really understand what my position is or are you assuming it? If you say you know without having asked, then you don't really know. If you don't care, then you're the one being arrogant here. You've put words in my mouth, and I don't care to defend positions that don't reflect or represent any of my beliefs. You don't know that I only care about Warcraft or what it means to me.. You have not once asked my opinion on this matter. My statements have been neutral, to the point of explaining what relevance means to different groups, which isn't an expression of my own opinion.


    Does this make sense to you? Am I being unreasonable?


    I notice you are replying to many different people. You have used similar language to others. Perhaps you are even confusing who you are responding to, it happens. But I am not those people. I do not share opinions with everyone you are arguing against. If you are confusing me for someone else, then that is on you, not me. I want to be clear this is the direction you took this conversation.

    You even replied to me that you 'said many times' but that means nothing if I engage a new conversation with you based on what you've stated here about the game. What you said in the past discussions with others has no relevance in a new conversation between me and you, I am not carrying on anyone else's discussion, I have started a new dialogue based on statements you made and this is what you need to recognize.

    I don't disagree, but definitely an assumption. That being said, I've already mentioned how turn based RPG's were a niche genre that lacked appeal to most modern gamers UNTIL the right game came along and then you have a highly popular, highly profitable GotY. Before WoW came out MMOs were a niche genre that lacked appeal to most gamers at the time, and look where we are now...

    Either way, a new title would be looking to release 5-10 years down the road, so ANY discussion on what genres may or may not be popular down the road is completely speculative.
    Which is fine to speculate, but also has little to do with the point I was making. Someone could also say shit could rain from the sky, we just haven't gotten to the point in history where it'a done so yet. They're free to assume that if they want, but it equally has nothing to do with my point.
    There is a difference between an observation and speculation, and your speculation has nothing to do with my observations.

    Is it now? And how would you KNOW that?

    Now, there's a difference between making educated guesses around concepts that are based on recognized trends vs spouting completely baseless nonsense (like the game is running purely on sunk cost nowadays). Tapping into new markets can increase engagement with a brand, accepting the fact that popularity for a product tends to decline over time, recognizing the value of a brand beyond a single product, and acknowledging that younger gamers don't usually gravitate to very old games aren't particularly controversial concepts. Those are basically the arguments I've put forth for why a sequel flagship title for the franchise
    And has WoW done what you've said? No, it has not. It has doubled down on appealing to the players it already has. My observations on the sunken costs remain relevant to the discussion (even in hyperbole). Otherwise I can simply say they already explore wider markets for many other games like Overwatch, Diablo Immortal, Diablo 4, Hearthstone, Warcraft Rumble etc. WoW however remains quite formulaic and predictable in terms of content and market appeal, and even their experimental features are tailored to players who are familiar with WoW, as opposed to radical new features that would draw in a new player. I would even point to Plunderstorm as an example of a new feature that isn't really made to draw a new crowd. It may seem like it, but we all know it's simply a fresh new feature for the existing players, even by mainstream marketing standards.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2024-07-11 at 08:23 AM.

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