10% Fewer Tanks (20% fewer pugging)

[Tech614]

I recall monks having stagger, but not self heal back in WoD. I may not recall correctly, because I was tanking as a pally at the time.

Monks had heavy self sustain in both MoP and WoD with Guard and Expel Harm, stagger was minimal at best. It was legion and BFA where they buffed stagger to the moon but took away almost all of their self sustain. SL onward has been a mix of the 2 models with celestial brew being a weaker version of guard, stagger being weaker than legion/WoD levels but not as low as MoP/WoD and expel harm only doing significant healing if you have a lot of orbs up.

You got it extremely twisted tbh, stagger was not a huge point of monk survival until legion. Guards that where bigger than your entire health pool and expel harm being near full heals if you had enough vengeance or w/e the WoD heal only version was called was what made monks strong in WoD and MoP.

[Doomcookie]

Monks had heavy self sustain in both MoP and WoD with Guard and Expel Harm, stagger was minimal at best. It was legion and BFA where they buffed stagger to the moon but took away almost all of their self sustain. SL onward has been a mix of the 2 models with celestial brew being a weaker version of guard, stagger being weaker than legion/WoD levels but not as low as MoP/WoD and expel harm only doing significant healing if you have a lot of orbs up.

You got it extremely twisted tbh, stagger was not a huge point of monk survival until legion. Guards that where bigger than your entire health pool and expel harm being near full heals if you had enough vengeance or w/e the WoD heal only version was called was what made monks strong in WoD and MoP.

Then, I was thinking about Legion.

[Osmeric]

The S1 dogshit dungeon pool is going to shrink the entire M+ playerbase more than anything else. Blizzard's taking a gamble on dungeon difficulty and it'll be interesting to see them scramble to increase participation numbers after they inevitably enter freefall shortly after launch.

They want people to do the new design content, delves, not the old design content, M+.

[Tech614]

They want people to do the new design content, delves, not the old design content, M+.

If that's their goal then it's a hilariously bad one. Most people are going to kill Zekvir and never sit foot in another delve for the rest of the season as it's vault rewards are not on par with M+ 9s and mythic raids.

But it's not their goal, and there is way more dev work being put into M+, delves are just a less offensive version of torghast with gear progression for less hardcore players.

[jeezusisacasual]

I personally think they are keeping things overtuned since they have said in the past that buffing a dungeon/encounter is not the way they want to go. So if they launch with dungeons being overtuned for the majority of the populace they can adjust things as a look we are listening etc. Every first season is harder then the subsequent seasons anyhow due to the new changes and general lack of skill shown by returning players along with a skill step being applied as a everygrowing expectation of mastery and adaptability similar to how newer raids are harder then older raids etc.

I would rather them put on extreme dps penalities for missing kicks / mechanics that makes them hate the experience to force them to adjust to the encounter instead of shifting more focus on the tank/healer roles. Miss a kick everyone does subpar dmg for a time or make the mechanics on the personal level for instance only 1 dps player can see balls to soak and if they do not soak them they lose 85% of the dmg for a time etc.

[Tech614]

I personally think they are keeping things overtuned since they have said in the past that buffing a dungeon/encounter is not the way they want to go. So if they launch with dungeons being overtuned for the majority of the populace they can adjust things as a look we are listening etc. Every first season is harder then the subsequent seasons anyhow due to the new changes and general lack of skill shown by returning players along with a skill step being applied as a everygrowing expectation of mastery and adaptability similar to how newer raids are harder then older raids etc.

I would rather them put on extreme dps penalities for missing kicks / mechanics that makes them hate the experience to force them to adjust to the encounter instead of shifting more focus on the tank/healer roles. Miss a kick everyone does subpar dmg for a time or make the mechanics on the personal level for instance only 1 dps player can see balls to soak and if they do not soak them they lose 85% of the dmg for a time etc.

The problem is, season 1 dungeons atm on beta are only overtuned for 1 part of the party- the healer. Which is why the people that thought it was a tank doomsday where click baited by blizzard. It is not hard for tanks to survive, nor is there a crazy amount of kicks or stops needed for the most part. There is just truck loads of unavoidable constant rot damage in these dungeons that you will be bottlenecked by what your healer can do, not anyone else in your group.

Without some significant nerfs healer pugs are gonna be non existent lol. It's not like good dps with properly timed defensives can help them much its fucking rot damage, the pressure people used to think was on tanks(but not really tbh) is actually going to be on healers as it stands right now. You can't just out dps the timer if deaths are happening with it being a 15s dealth penalty now.

[jeezusisacasual]

The problem is, season 1 dungeons atm on beta are only overtuned for 1 part of the party- the healer. Which is why the people that thought it was a tank doomsday where click baited by blizzard. It is not hard for tanks to survive, nor is there a crazy amount of kicks or stops needed for the most part. There is just truck loads of unavoidable constant rot damage in these dungeons that you will be bottlenecked by what your healer can do, not anyone else in your group.

Without some significant nerfs healer pugs are gonna be non existent lol. It's not like good dps with properly timed defensives can help them much its fucking rot damage, the pressure people used to think was on tanks(but not really tbh) is actually going to be on healers as it stands right now. You can't just out dps the timer if deaths are happening with it being a 15s dealth penalty now.

I have done each dungeon twice excluding Grim Batol 4 times ( people love that place for some reason? ) but i agree with you on the more stressful role being healing. Everytime they mess with one of the more delicate roles like tank or healer they end up hurting the participation of those roles which has a more negative effect on DPS which is why i think they should move to fucking over the dps with mistakes and make them suffer as much as a healer when they make the mistakes. I still feel like they have not done a dungeon by dungeon check of reverting the stop change which causes excess damage to come out which is a mistake.

Plus dps need to be penalized for not using defensives or kicking correctly, lets hope Delves have one shots from missing a kick and have the recast after a stun etc to force players to adapt.

[Twdft]

Plus dps need to be penalized for not using defensives or kicking correctly, lets hope Delves have one shots from missing a kick and have the recast after a stun etc to force players to adapt.

If delves are hard they will become boost central just like visions did in BfA. Noone's gonna learn to play their class in delves.

[Tech614]

If delves are hard they will become boost central just like visions did in BfA. Noone's gonna learn to play their class in delves.

If they want the mount skin, they can't be boosted unless they do a TOS violating account share boost.

Outside of that there really isn't much of a point in buying a boost either, when you could buy boosts in M+ for a better vault than what delves can give you.

[jeezusisacasual]

If delves are hard they will become boost central just like visions did in BfA. Noone's gonna learn to play their class in delves.

Still you do not placate to them at all if they can not do it then they do not get it as its that simple. Having people play around the tool kits they can talent into does not make it hard and people should have some basic muscle memory at this point they can do lower levels until they improve or quit.

[kaelix1]

Plus dps need to be penalized for not using defensives or kicking correctly, lets hope Delves have one shots from missing a kick and have the recast after a stun etc to force players to adapt.

As a healer, I fully understand where you are coming from, especially when I played my shaman BUT I don't think punishment is the correct way, I believe in a game like Wow, rewarding good gameplay is far more efficient than punishment, random dumb example, having bounties in the dungeon, if you interrupt X time Y spell, you get Z reward, or, give DPS 5% dps increase for a successful interrupt, extra crest if you are under X damage taken at the end of the dungeon, etc etc

[Ereb]

As a healer, I fully understand where you are coming from, especially when I played my shaman BUT I don't think punishment is the correct way, I believe in a game like Wow, rewarding good gameplay is far more efficient than punishment, random dumb example, having bounties in the dungeon, if you interrupt X time Y spell, you get Z reward, or, give DPS 5% dps increase for a successful interrupt, extra crest if you are under X damage taken at the end of the dungeon, etc etc

honestly delves could be amazing if used this way, to help ''teach'' the player the importance of interrupting, purging, stunning, etc so that when they do group content we have less ''tunnelers'' overall in our keys haha

[deenman]

If delves are hard they will become boost central just like visions did in BfA. Noone's gonna learn to play their class in delves.

thats an irelevant point,everything in wow can be boosted,if someone wants to learn to play better they wont get a boost they will watch a video and practice at a dummy,do follower dungeons,lfr and progress from there in to harder stuff

[Biomega]

thats an irelevant point,everything in wow can be boosted,if someone wants to learn to play better they wont get a boost they will watch a video and practice at a dummy,do follower dungeons,lfr and progress from there in to harder stuff

Almost anything can be boosted, but only very few, specific things ever are on any appreciable scale: raids/M+ and rated PvP above all else.

Getting a boost is a hurdle. The activity/goal needs to be significant enough and difficult enough to warrant crossing that hurdle, or boosting for it will forever remain an anecdotal phenomenon.

Visions were really the last time some outside activity had a significant presence in boosts. Even Torghast never reached very high, because while boosts for it did exist it was by and large so easy to do yourself that it never took off in any serious way.

Delve boosting being mainstream (rather than some isolated here-and-there incidents) would require two things: 1. the rewards being significant; and 2. the activity being of considerable difficulty.

I doubt it will be either 1. or 2. Of course we don't know for sure yet - things may develop in unexpected ways. But by and large Delves seem aimed at a demographic that is looking for faceroll content, and therefore it's unlikely that any Delve will be difficult enough to warrant boosting at scale. Even the "special" Delve is unlikely to be that hard, and will likely be magnitudes easier than something like e.g. 5-Mask Visions. We'll have to wait and see, but it's a bit facile to go "ummm ackshually everything can be boosted tho?!" because that kind of misses the point.

[Sialina]

I'm not big on the tank changes, especially not the trinket changes. It's really pushing me to not tank this season.

[jeezusisacasual]

As a healer, I fully understand where you are coming from, especially when I played my shaman BUT I don't think punishment is the correct way, I believe in a game like Wow, rewarding good gameplay is far more efficient than punishment, random dumb example, having bounties in the dungeon, if you interrupt X time Y spell, you get Z reward, or, give DPS 5% dps increase for a successful interrupt, extra crest if you are under X damage taken at the end of the dungeon, etc etc

Sure i am right there with you but in order to have something be meaningful and impactful it has to have some form of stakes and the easiest way to present that is a pass/fail mechanic that puts the onus on the player. It should be easily detectable and defined as a way for them to point out in the explosion of effects, i think making a kick / purge / dispel etc a personal accountability issue is the way to directly tell them they fucked up and its your fault.

Now i think the new dungeons are mechanic overload for the average person since they cant just kick any spell but the correct spell and since addons tell you when you are targeted with a mechanic you are assumed to have those addons you need to know in advance to use a defensive or die could be a bit much on the cognative load side of things but how else do you make the playerbase become better because you want to make challenging encounters? Do i miss easier dungeons? Absolutely but i understand that you have to struggle to improve.

[Thor79]

Personally, I am finding tanking fun this xpac. I have been taking since Vanilla. Take my thoughts with a grain of salt, they may change when M+ opens - but I don't find my survivability that much reduced, I like the threat profiles, and I enjoy the classes - playing Guardian and Blood DK so far. Previous experience - 2600rio average on multiple tanks, multiple seasons.

[Kehego]

They tried this in shadowlands what actually happens is a kite meta. We still pull the same size we just run the hell away and it feels awful to tank.

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Vengeance rewarded you for playing on a knife's edge in a way that just giving tanks baseline damage doesn't.

vengeance just made tanks dps brain idiots that would stand in fire

[Biomega]

vengeance just made tanks dps brain idiots that would stand in fire

Vengeance wasn't perfect, but it added certain dimensions to tank gameplay that many people found quite satisfying. It makes sense why it was removed, but it's not unthinkable that something like vengeance should be investigated as a possible tanking system for the future.

Tanks are a bit peculiar in how they work, conceptually, and that has an impact on player enjoyment. The fact that if you do everything right nothing happens is a bit of a downer for a lot of tank players who would like their skill to be reflected in a form more tangible than "I didn't die and the boss didn't move from where it was supposed to be" which is what everyone else in the group basically considers the status quo.

[Twdft]

Ty it to defensives. Imagine a tank has had xx% uptime of his active mitigation so he gets a +% damage buff when combat ends. Buff starts to fade to zero over 15 seconds when next in combat.