10% Fewer Tanks (20% fewer pugging)

[Tech614]

Vengeance wasn't perfect, but it added certain dimensions to tank gameplay that many people found quite satisfying. It makes sense why it was removed, but it's not unthinkable that something like vengeance should be investigated as a possible tanking system for the future.

Tanks are a bit peculiar in how they work, conceptually, and that has an impact on player enjoyment. The fact that if you do everything right nothing happens is a bit of a downer for a lot of tank players who would like their skill to be reflected in a form more tangible than "I didn't die and the boss didn't move from where it was supposed to be" which is what everyone else in the group basically considers the status quo.

No, vengeance even in it's no damage only healing buff form in WoD is massively problematic and should not be brought back. Things hitting harder should make tank gameplay harder, not easier. Forget the OP MoP damage, that isn't even the biggest problem with it. The biggest problem with it was in hard content you eventually take so much damage that all of the tank specs that have absorbs can just live infinitely and solo tank everything with their eyes closed.

There was no skill involved with vengeance, lets stop this cope right now lol. It's the opposite and it actually carried bad tanks through the game.

[pfbe]

I wish shadowlands season 1 hadn't been the tanking shitshow it was. Oops, you were in range of more than 3 mobs for a single swing timer, press that release button fast before they clap the rest of the group and reset. Really turned me off from tanking. Hopefully tww won't repeat those mistakes.

[ONCHEhap]

Ty it to defensives. Imagine a tank has had xx% uptime of his active mitigation so he gets a +% damage buff when combat ends. Buff starts to fade to zero over 15 seconds when next in combat.

Blood DK's San'layn hero talent trees turns vampiric blood into a DPS cooldown and it feels kinda awful to play, so that doesn't work

[Kehego]

No, vengeance even in it's no damage only healing buff form in WoD is massively problematic and should not be brought back. Things hitting harder should make tank gameplay harder, not easier. Forget the OP MoP damage, that isn't even the biggest problem with it. The biggest problem with it was in hard content you eventually take so much damage that all of the tank specs that have absorbs can just live infinitely and solo tank everything with their eyes closed.

There was no skill involved with vengeance, lets stop this cope right now lol. It's the opposite and it actually carried bad tanks through the game.

kid sounds straight from the dh discord

"skill expression" ass retards pushing havoc to be a mid tier autistic spec with no scaling for yet another expansion

zoom zoom and irrelevant 3 weeks into the season

on topic, maybe the person you quoted is one of those bad tanks? Like I do remember just 4dps+tank dungeons in WoD and that was absolutely dumb; especially with tanks like monk

- - - Updated - - -

Vengeance wasn't perfect, but it added certain dimensions to tank gameplay that many people found quite satisfying. It makes sense why it was removed, but it's not unthinkable that something like vengeance should be investigated as a possible tanking system for the future.

Tanks are a bit peculiar in how they work, conceptually, and that has an impact on player enjoyment. The fact that if you do everything right nothing happens is a bit of a downer for a lot of tank players who would like their skill to be reflected in a form more tangible than "I didn't die and the boss didn't move from where it was supposed to be" which is what everyone else in the group basically considers the status quo.

ok play a dps then i guess cus you clearly don't want to tank and control mobs/smoothen the run etc

[Biomega]

ok play a dps then i guess cus you clearly don't want to tank and control mobs/smoothen the run etc

I hope you realize though that telling tank players to just stfu or reroll is not going to end well for anyone. Everyone has a vested interest in keeping tank players entertained. Because they are needed.

[schwank05]

Just make all Tanks like MOP, everything felt great stacking Haste on a Prot Pally and just being able to basically Solo tank/ heal most mobs. Then there was Brewmaster Monks which were just plain amazing and a blast to play, even after the nerf to damage they were still fantastic. Honestly MOP had every class in an amazing place gameplay wise, hence the reason I am playing CATA classic to get to MOP because I think it was Peak WOW.

[heerobya]

I've been tanking in this game since you had to count Sunders after a pull before engaging...

I didn't play in beta, but right now in WW it feels like normal/heroic are way under tuned, aka I can pull half a dungeon and easily survive/hold aggro on everything - but that isn't fun.

I like the pull 1-2 packs, focus them down/watch for special interrupts and mechanics, each pull slightly different you have to manage casters vs frontal cleave vs. etc. etc.

I play (primarily) Lightsmith Prot Paladin just to have all the extra group utility buttons.

It's fun to play at a high level.

I doubt there are very many non-new tanks (except DH "tanks") who actually like the speed speed speed pull the whole place aoe it down lol gameplay.

[Cynical Asshole]

People lost interest in tanking when Blizzard kicked tanks out of PVP, which was around BFA.

[DarkblazerZ]

If you want tanks to have fun and healers to have fun, bring back Vengeance, the good kind from MOP, and increase tanks mitigation while further reducing their non-CD related self healing.

Tanks who are actively tanking get big damage, mitigate lots of damage, but need healers to keep them alive.

Healers get to heal everybody, but tanks aren't dropping like flies.

DPS would be upset to see tanks doing big damage, but oh well, they can do lots of keys because of plenty of tanks and healers.



The way TWW is shaping up, all groups will be doing lower key levels compared to where their "set point" was previously. If you were doing 10s, maybe 8s will be your top keys. 15s, maybe 12-13s.... Everyone will be lower and survivability will be king. Aug is super powerful, even if their damage ends up sucking (questionable), balance druids and any dps like them will be non-existent because they fold like paper. Caster meta will still regin supreme because of Aug and because most of the most durable dps are clothie casters (for some reason).

Alot more pugs will be unable to clear high enough to get mythic vault items, and at that point, most of them will quit. I expect TWW to start strong and as people start quitting due to hitting a pug wall, blizzard will nerf the dungeons alot or unnerf tanks to a degree. We shall see.

Yes ..let's have tank that can pull entire dungeons while sitting on facebook , top the dps charts and have insane healing like they already have now .

I did some M0 .

There are good tanks and the are bad tanks. Bad tank .. is the above**

[heerobya]

DPS being impatient and pulling way too much and wiping, then blaming the tank... I can't believe it's been 20 years and idiots still do this. Every. Day.

[Zardi]

The problem is, season 1 dungeons atm on beta are only overtuned for 1 part of the party- the healer. Which is why the people that thought it was a tank doomsday where click baited by blizzard. It is not hard for tanks to survive, nor is there a crazy amount of kicks or stops needed for the most part. There is just truck loads of unavoidable constant rot damage in these dungeons that you will be bottlenecked by what your healer can do, not anyone else in your group.

Without some significant nerfs healer pugs are gonna be non existent lol. It's not like good dps with properly timed defensives can help them much its fucking rot damage, the pressure people used to think was on tanks(but not really tbh) is actually going to be on healers as it stands right now. You can't just out dps the timer if deaths are happening with it being a 15s dealth penalty now.

This is what I feared would happen. Tank survivability isn't much worse than it was in Dragonfight (considering gear levels) so the "gogogo" mindset hasn't gone anywhere. Too often I'm seeing the tanks overpull and then go "wtf" when they're the only ones alive; and the rest of the time, it's the DPS pulling more stuff because they want to do the numbers. The only difference with SL/DF is that the tank can eventually die.

Healing feels more stressful than ever; AoE healing is as inefficient as usual, and there's not enough single-target throughput to keep everyone reasonably healthy. It's possible that this also stems from stuff not dying fast enough; although as difficulty and gear progresses we can expect things to stay the same.

So yeah, tanking is fine, but healing is hell. I am ok with tanking a PuG Mythic, but definitely skipping healing unless it's a coordinated group.

[Osmeric]

So yeah, tanking is fine, but healing is hell. I am ok with tanking a PuG Mythic, but definitely skipping healing unless it's a coordinated group.

I'm finding I'm skipping dungeons even in organized groups. I reached an ilvl where I could do normal raids without doing a single heroic dungeon, and I have yet to do any M (let alone M+) dungeons. Delves (particularly in small groups) are just feeling easier.

I'll come back and do dungeons for achievements, at some point, but as a gearing/grind? No thanks. In retrospect, the focus on dungeons was something that really turned me off and led me to skipping most of SL and DF.

We'll see how this post holds up after the 9/12 patch that changed delve scaling.

[Daedius]

Wished I main'd a Paladin instead of a Priest for all roles, plus looking great... way back when I started playing in TBC all games prior I always chose a healer or support class, and Priest was THE healer...

Now I'll be damned playing a new main after investing into doing everything with my Priest, be they character specific Titles, spending countless hours farming and spending millions on transmogs, being thorough with expansion features [Garrisons, Class Hall, etc.], etc etc etc.

Make Disc a Tank Spec! Then I'd start tanking...

[Bodakane]

DPS being impatient and pulling way too much and wiping, then blaming the tank... I can't believe it's been 20 years and idiots still do this. Every. Day.

1000% this