Midnight and The Amani

[Varodoc]

Not rly sure what having Nelves with tusks would accomplish, for the Aliance.

Trolls are not just "Nelves with tusks", how utterly disingenuous. You cannot possibly look at the Night Elves and think that the only thing that sets them apart from trolls is the lack of tusks.

Trolls would add a much-needed primitive and bestial side to the Alliance.

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IIRC, there's a number of in-game clues pointing at Trolls being present in Azeroth before the advent of the Black Empire, and that the latter enslaved them. Whatever they had prior to that was erased by the subjugation from the Black Empire and the later Titan's Reordering.

I find it a nice touch how, together with the Dragons, the other sapient primeval Azeroth species, they've managed over the years to tie them more and more to a common dinosaur theme.

What are these clues? And are these clues from Vanilla, 20 years ago, back when the Old Gods would have made Sargeras "beg for the mercy of a swift death"?

Either way, even if trolls somehow predated the arrival of the Old Gods, troll civilization does not. Before King Dazar's time, the trolls had no form of civilization, while the Black Empire was indeed the first time that a race on Azeroth organized in a civilized and structured manner. We know the Black Empire predate Dazar by countless millennia as the Great Seal, built by the Titan keepers to contain G'Huun and the very foundation of the Zandalari Empire itself, predates Troll civilization as we know it.

[Feanoro]

Trolls would add a much-needed primitive and bestial side to the Alliance.

Like the Worgen were supposed to?

[Varodoc]

Like the Worgen were supposed to?

Worgen stopped being relevant in 2019 when they were told in their own heritage quest that being a worgen sucks.

We can say that GILNEAS has plot relevance as we saw at the beginning of this year. It is the GILNEAN aspect that has relevance, not the bestial/animalistic aspect.

Worgen are supposed to be a "bestial" race, but they don't behave like beasts, they behave like civilized Gilneans who happen to look like beasts.

Their very own leader (or former leader I should say) spends 99.9% of his time in Human form.

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Trolls are not just "Nelves with tusks", how utterly disingenuous. You cannot possibly look at the Night Elves and think that the only thing that sets them apart from trolls is the lack of tusks.

Trolls would add a much-needed primitive and bestial side to the Alliance.

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What are these clues? And are these clues from Vanilla, 20 years ago, back when the Old Gods would have made Sargeras "beg for the mercy of a swift death"?

Either way, even if trolls somehow predated the arrival of the Old Gods, troll civilization does not. Before King Dazar's time, the trolls had no form of civilization, while the Black Empire was indeed the first time that a race on Azeroth organized in a civilized and structured manner. We know the Black Empire predate Dazar by countless millennia as the Great Seal, built by the Titan keepers to contain G'Huun and the very foundation of the Zandalari Empire itself, predates Troll civilization as we know it.

Leave it to the elves to denigrate other races apst achievments.

[Varodoc]

Leave it to the elves to denigrate other races apst achievments.

Leave it to the trolls to still hold a grudge after 7,000 years. Elves are not like that, you don't see blood elves holding a grudge over the forests burned by the orcs and that was only 40 years ago (as opposed to 7,000).

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

What are these clues? And are these clues from Vanilla, 20 years ago, back when the Old Gods would have made Sargeras "beg for the mercy of a swift death"?

Either way, even if trolls somehow predated the arrival of the Old Gods, troll civilization does not. Before King Dazar's time, the trolls had no form of civilization, while the Black Empire was indeed the first time that a race on Azeroth organized in a civilized and structured manner. We know the Black Empire predate Dazar by countless millennia as the Great Seal, built by the Titan keepers to contain G'Huun and the very foundation of the Zandalari Empire itself, predates Troll civilization as we know it.

I'll have to dig in the various lore items I have in the bank, as well as archaeology finds. From my recollection it should be from BfA. There was at least an old writing dating back to the Black Empire, where they refer to slaves and are suprised by their sapience.

Plus the Chronicle volume I has an illustration of the Black Empire where one can distinguish cohorts of enslaved humanoids pulling large stones, bossed around by Faceless Ones

Do note that the recent lore surrounding Odyn shows that all pre-Titan Ordering History was carefully rewritten by the Keepers.

Damnatio Memoriae.

Zandalar is the oldest Troll Empire that we know of, one which has managed to survive the Sundering. But arguably both the Ordering by the Titans, and the arrival of the Old Gods and Rise of the Black Empire were also cataclysmic enough to wipe out everything.

At least they'd have a culture, and trolls have been shown countless times to posess great resilience and an ability to stay under the radar of more powerful beings.

[Triceron]

They only stop the conquest and genocide because they feared to bring the legion attention once again, thats why they raise the shield, not because they wanted fucking peace.

Then it's not genocide.

If the ONLY killed those in their path to ensure their borders are safe, then they clearly aren't set out to exterminate their entire race, babies and all.

You understand the difference here right? The Elves securing the borders of the land they conquer does not involve them invading settlements and killing every Troll down to the last woman and child. They are only killing those who are actively waging warfare with them. That is a clear difference.


What you are calling genocide is clearly a misuse of the term, and you're better off admitting the mistake than further defending this.

Elves killed Trolls, but there is zero indication that they were motivated by genocide. The lore has been clear, in both of our examples here.

They only stop the conquest and genocide because they feared to bring the legion attention once again, thats why they raise the shield, not because they wanted fucking peace.

Merely correlation. There is no indication that they sought to destroy the entire Troll race. They could have done so without rampant use of magic as well, as they have an entire ranger army at their command. Their purpose shifted to that of defending their kingdom and living in peace for FOUR THOUSAND YEARS. That is contrary to the motivation of genocide.


And it was a Troll INVASION that lead to Anasterion Sunstrider TEACHING HUMANS the use of arcane magic in order to deal with the Zandalari-backed Troll invasions of the Troll Wars, which resulted in a defeat so devastating that the Forest Trolls never truly recovered from. It all ended with Amani forces scattered, NOT chased down and killed to the last Troll. The goal was never genocide, it was always to deal with an active threat that was spurred on by the Zandalari. Their goal was always focused on defending their own land.

With the absence of trolls in the northlands, the elves focused on rebuilding Quel'Thalas.

[sighy]

Trolls are not just "Nelves with tusks", how utterly disingenuous. You cannot possibly look at the Night Elves and think that the only thing that sets them apart from trolls is the lack of tusks.

Trolls would add a much-needed primitive and bestial side to the Alliance.

Been over this with the savage nelves and bestial worgen. One got neutered into hippies the other got neutered into furries. It'll be the same shit all over again, with tusks this time.

[Varodoc]

Been over this with the savage nelves and bestial worgen. One got neutered into hippies the other got neutered into furries. It'll be the same shit all over again, with tusks this time.

And yet it's what will happen.

Horde got an Alliance model for free in TWW, the Alliance will get a Horde model in Midnight. Parity, faction balance, yada yada yada.

It's a fairly simple logic to understand, isn't it?

[sighy]

And yet it's what will happen.

Horde got an Alliance model for free in TWW, the Alliance will get a Horde model in Midnight. Parity, faction balance, yada yada yada.

It's a fairly simple logic to understand, isn't it?

What does that have to do with the lore? What would the trolls add that the Nelves don't?

[Varodoc]

What does that have to do with the lore? What would the trolls add that the Nelves don't?

What do the Earthen add to the Horde that Blackrocks don't?

[Triceron]

What does that have to do with the lore? What would the trolls add that the Nelves don't?

Kind of an odd argument to make considering every race is added for their differences, not because of lore niches that need to be filled.

[Feanoro]

Worgen stopped being relevant in 2019 when they were told in their own heritage quest that being a worgen sucks.

We can say that GILNEAS has plot relevance as we saw at the beginning of this year. It is the GILNEAN aspect that has relevance, not the bestial/animalistic aspect.

Worgen are supposed to be a "bestial" race, but they don't behave like beasts, they behave like civilized Gilneans who happen to look like beasts.

Their very own leader (or former leader I should say) spends 99.9% of his time in Human form.

Worgen weren't relevant at release, precisely because they were sold to us as savagery for the Alliance while what we got were polite Victorian furries.

[Mehrunes]

Since the Trolls lost, they gave up all claim to the lands that the Elves obtained. It was not stolen, it was taken by force. Even Zul'jin blatantly and clearly establishes this in the Zul'Aman cinematic - "Dis was our land, Troll land. We Amani, was here before ANYONE! Da Elves and dere Alliance, came to drive us out". He still acknowledges the right of conquest, that they lost the land. Warcraft does not operate on the concept of a loser's right of claim. The losers can always bitch and cry, but the lore has always been clear about who controls what, and how any type of 'rightful claim' has to be accomplished through... Warcraft.

It not only operates on that concept, it extends it to the claim passing to completely different kingdoms because Blizzard does not understand what alliances are, as per your own earlier example of the Forsaken. With Varian explicitly referring to Lordaeron as something to be reclaimed for the Alliance. With multiple other human characters from completely different kingdoms like Genn also questioning the Forsaken's right to their territory.

And your quip about 'when someone do it to elves = is wrong crime', if you're talking about taking Lumber from Night Elf territory that is still actively being defended against, then yes that is stealing resources, because the Horde had not laid direct claim over those same lands. They only held a small portion of the forests, while the rest remains clearly as Night Elf territory.

This is just drawing lines in the sand. The High Elves also controlled a relatively small portion of Amani lands, especially at the start.

[Triceron]

This is just drawing lines in the sand. The High Elves also controlled a relatively small portion of Amani lands, especially at the start.

Agreed. For four thousand years, the lines would have been exclusive to the portion that the Runestones originally protected, mainly the areas bordering Silvermoon. It wasn't until the Troll Wars involving Zandalari and Humans of Arathor that the borders of Quel'thalas (and possibly Lordaeron) were expanded into what we know of today.

If the Trolls didn't fuck around, they could have kept a big chunk of their empire till today.

[Syegfryed]

This is why having playable Amani would be a fucking horrible idea

We still have the revantusk for the forest troll model

They were defeated and forced to pay tribute during the Kaldorei Empire time. Humiliating to be sure, but a far cry from your alleged extermination.

chronicles confirms it was an extermination, and they only survived because the elves got bored of fucking then over.

If you keep challenging Mike Tyson, who you know you can't beat, it's your own fucking fault that you get beaten black and blue every time.

But many times the trolls COULD win, but the elves always got help, first from the humans and secondly from the horde.

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Then it's not genocide.

That is genocide, you are trying to nitpick/split hair over the fact that the elves reduced the amani to the brink of extinction, THUS it was a genocide of the troll race.

If the ONLY killed those in their path to ensure their borders are safe, then they clearly aren't set out to exterminate their entire race, babies and all.

You don't need to have that kind of mindset to commit a genocide.

You understand the difference here right? The Elves securing the borders of the land they conquer does not involve them invading settlements and killing every Troll down to the last woman and child.

thats literally what they did up their way to the troll ruins.

Merely correlation. There is no indication that they sought to destroy the entire Troll race. T

Lmao, they literally would do if they could, they didn't because they were afraid of the legion coming back.

[Triceron]

That is genocide, you are trying to nitpick/split hair over the fact that the elves reduced the amani to the brink of extinction, THUS it was a genocide of the troll race.

Genocide is defined by purpose of extinction, which is exactly what is missing here. They fought to defend their lands, and the war left the Trolls pushed back to the point they could not recover from. But it was nit genocide for the very purpose of the war not being perpetuated for the purpose of extinction. It was the Trolls who wanted to kill every single Elf and Human. Humans and Elves on the other hand only cared to protect their territory and their people, not make all Trolls extinct.

The lore is absolutely clear on this, historically and in retrospect of their actions.

You don't need to have that kind of mindset to commit a genocide.

Yes, you do.

Otherwise we have other words to cover this sort of shit. War. Massacre. Collateral Damage.

Genocide is the expressed intent to exterminate an entire group of peoples. As much as Humans and Elves may hate the Trolls, their conflicts are always purposed around defense of their territory, NOT exterminating all Trolls.

Same way Japan was bombed and made to surrender. They were dealt a blow that the empire never recovered from. The bombs killed entire cities of people, irradiated their land. The bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima could be called many things, but it was not genocide.

The goal of the bombs was not to exterminate the Japanese nation or the Japanese people. Its purpose was to end the war.

A parallel can be drawn to Humans and Elves having to resort to extreme measures to end the war, for the very reason that the Trolls did not let up their invasion even at risk of extinction. Once the Trolls gave up, the Humans and Elves entered another era of peace (until the Horde came)

[Syegfryed]

Genocide is defined by purpose of extinction, which is exactly what is missing here.

Not Always.

Again, Teldrassil incident was considered, even in canon, considered genocide, neither Sylvanas nor horde did that with the sole purpose of extinction of the night elves.

A genocide is a campaign/act of destroying that a nation/group, which is exactly what the elves did with the amani with only a few surviving in zulaman.

Yes, you do.

No you don't. The legal definitions state that even if you aim to destroy one part of said group - which the elves surely did - still is a genocide.

[Triceron]

No you don't. The legal definitions state that even if you aim to destroy one part of said group - which the elves surely did - still is a genocide.

The definition of genocide has very specific exclusions

From wikipedia:

Also excluded from the definition of genocide is the death of large numbers of civilians as collateral damage of military activity such as aerial bombing, even when they make up a significant portion of a nation's population

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Not Always.

Again, Teldrassil incident was considered, even in canon, considered genocide, neither Sylvanas nor horde did that with the sole purpose of extinction of the night elves.

Yes, because history ended up revealing Sylvanas WAS GENOCIDAL. She purposely sought warfare AGAINST THE LiVING. Her purpose was to funnel ALL LIVING SOULS TO THE MAW.

She waged war against ALL LIVING BEINGS. Sylvanas being genocidal may have been a product of terrible writing and terrible motivation, but it is absolutely clear what her purpose was.

Had she never been given that motivation and if she had earnestly burned teldrassil as a way to pre-empt some great war with the Alliance (it makes no fucking sense but let's assume it worked), then it could be seen as a massacre, and not genocide. It's only in the light of revealing her true intentions with alignment of Zovaal and purely starting the war for souls that her intentions were genocide.

A genocide is a campaign/act of destroying that a nation/group, which is exactly what the elves did with the amani with only a few surviving in zulaman.

Except the Elves were not set out to destroy a nation. They did not set out to destroy the Amani as a people. They set out to defend their lands and deal with the threat that the Trolls posed through their invasion. The unrelenting nature of Troll attacks are the reason why extreme measures were taken.



Genocide is not a word to describe extinction-level massacre, it is specifically a word to describe the act and intent of destroying a peoples or a nation.

[micwini]

The only thing I want is an Amani fragnance side quest