[Concept] World of Warcraft: Path of Honor

[Skytotem]

The Horde shouldn't adhere to political correctness.

What are you even fucking talking about? Being 'anti slavery' is somehow political correctness? Is that LEGITIMATELY your point of view on slavery?

[username993720]

My point is Pandaria is already explored. Having new races suddenly pop up when we've already explored the continent doesn't make much sense. Most of the time we explore new continents, we encounter new races or offshoots of existing ones. Rarely do we re-explore an existing location with vastly new races suddenly introduced. The exception for exploring existing locations would be if there was a massive timeskip (AU Draenor) or some sort of event that changes the entire biome (Cataclysm shenanigans or BFA spilling Botani into Barrens).

It's similar to my example of adding Vulpera and Sethekk to Stranglethorn as if they've always been there. It wouldn't make as much sense as say coming across them as new races in a new environment, like Zandalar.

What, you think Quel'thalas and Northrend are going to be completely the same in Midnight and the Last Titan?

Is there any reason why it couldn't be a new continent that is merely inspired by Pandaren cultural roots?

Because there's no reason to copy paste pandaria when we've got pandaria.

Regardless of his design, Taran Zhu's character is clearly rooted in Chinese culture.

And even then, I would say Taran Zhu's design isn't specific to any culture. The plate armor and scarf aren't specifically asian inspired, neither is the decoration of the spirit beads or the emblem on the straw hat. Those are all products of an artist taking creative liberties and just making stuff up.

He's as much of a mish-mash as the Three Storms are in Big Trouble in Little China. The designs are all loosely Asian inspired, with no specific culture in mind. Also similarly, I'd compare it to Raiden from Mortal Kombat, who is supposed to be inspired by (or actually be) the Japanese Thunder God, Raijin, but looks nothing like Raijin's traditional depiction. Instead, Raiden's design is based on, you guessed it, Big Trouble in Little China.

I'm not talking about Taran Zhu. I'm talking about the Shado-Pan:

"The Shado-Pan (or Shado-pan), also known as the "Sword in the Shadows" and the "Watchers on the Wall", are a secretive, elite order of highly disciplined pandaren fighters with a ninja-like culture dedicated to protecting their empire from any threat."

The Mogu may be visually based on Oni, but the race itself is completely rooted in Mongolian culture.

Those are Yaungol.
The Mogu are more like chinese warlords.

What are you even fucking talking about? Being 'anti slavery' is somehow political correctness? Is that LEGITIMATELY your point of view on slavery?

It's irrelevant today and especially in a video game, yet you keep bringing it up. Stop shoving this political awareness everywhere. I'm here for entertainment, not to discuss the rights and wrongs of the world.

[Triceron]

What, you think Quel'thalas and Northrend are going to be completely the same in Midnight and the Last Titan?

Are those locations going to feature many new races we never seen before? Imagine Quel'thalas introducing a new bird race or small animal people or spider people who are suddenly explained as natives of Quel'thalas. would that make sense to you?

I'm not talking about Taran Zhu. I'm talking about the Shado-Pan:

"The Shado-Pan (or Shado-pan), also known as the "Sword in the Shadows" and the "Watchers on the Wall", are a secretive, elite order of highly disciplined pandaren fighters with a ninja-like culture dedicated to protecting their empire from any threat."

Because that role also existed historically in China. They just weren't distinguished by look or title. Chinese assassins would have looked like any regular person, much like modern day CIA operatives don't have a specific 'look' to them, they're intended to blend into society to avoid being noticed. Just like historically, China also had pirates, but they wouldn't have looked like swashbucklers wearing funny hats and peglegs. There was no uniform or look, they were just Chinese people who happened to be pirates.

The modern depiction of Ninjas is also a result of pop culture, not of actual historic reference. Look at how the designs carried into Chinese movies, like Iron Monkey. This is a pop culture twist depicting Wong Fei Hung, a historic Chinese folk hero who never wore Ninja outfits.




Ninjas in Japan actually didn't wear this kind of stuff either. It's all a result of pop culture depictions.

https://www.wayofninja.com/do-ninjas...%20this%20myth.

While there are people who strongly believe that ninjas wore all-black costumes with masks, which revealed only the eyes, historical facts and common sense does not support this myth.

The idea that ninja wore all-black costumes came from prop-handlers of the Kabuki theatre. The black costume was meant to allow prop handlers to blend with the background and look mundane as compared to the actors.


On a side note, you can see the same thing about pop culture influencing the idea of horned or winged 'Viking Helmets'. All that came from promotional material for Wagner's Operas. Historic Vikings never had winged or horned helmets. We still call the horned helmet a Viking Helmet today only because of pop culture, not because of historic accuracy.

Those are Yaungol.
The Mogu are more like chinese warlords.

From Wikipedia:
The conquest by the Mogu in Pandaria resembles the Mongol conquest of China.


At one point in history, the Mongols took over China and established their own dynasty. The Mogu are based on that part of Chinese history, when the Mongols actually control and became royal leaders of the people. These Mongols adopted aspects of Chinese culture to better integrate themselves and rule over the people they've dominated. They learned the Chinese language, they wore Chinese clothing, they adopted Chinese religion and philosophy. The Pandaren relationship with the Mogu parallels the Han people's relationship with their former Mongolian rulers. Similarities basically end there though, since history was a lot more nuanced and the Mongolians weren't exactly tyrannical like the Mogu.

The Yaungol are based on Mongolian Culture. The nomadic lifestyle, living on the steppes, etc.

Two completely different aspects of the same people, represented by two different fictional races.

Because there's no reason to copy paste pandaria when we've got pandaria.

Except your entire theme has little to do with Pandaria. You're intention is to explore new races and culture centered on Japanese themes. Itachi, Tengu, Tanuki and the like don't exist on Pandaria. We've already explored the continent and know what races inhabit those lands.

If you want to explore those kind of races in a Pandaria-like setting, just create a new one that has a historic connection to Pandaria's existing races. No need to revamp Pandaria itself. You're basically trying to fix something that isn't broke, and it just breaks the world itself even more for shoehorning more things into a place that doesn't really need more different races and cultures to explore.

[Skytotem]

It's irrelevant today and especially in a video game, yet you keep bringing it up. Stop shoving this political awareness everywhere. I'm here for entertainment, not to discuss the rights and wrongs of the world.

I'm gonna need you to explain exactly what you think is political about not liking slavery in the Horde

[Kathranis]

I'm not talking about Taran Zhu. I'm talking about the Shado-Pan:

"The Shado-Pan (or Shado-pan), also known as the "Sword in the Shadows" and the "Watchers on the Wall", are a secretive, elite order of highly disciplined pandaren fighters with a ninja-like culture dedicated to protecting their empire from any threat."

First off, the Sword in the Shadows / Watchers on the Wall were inspired by the Night's Watch in Game of Thrones. Like, word for word.

Beyond that, China had its own history of spies and assassins, and the founding ninja clans were inspired by Chinese military teachings like Sun Tzu's Art of War.

I'd say they are more based on the stone lion statues.

Correct, they're based on Chinese guardian lion statues:

[username993720]

Are those locations going to feature many new races we never seen before? Imagine Quel'thalas introducing a new bird race or small animal people or spider people who are suddenly explained as natives of Quel'thalas. would that make sense to you?

Draenor introduced the Saberon, Botani, Hippos and other creatures. You really believe the revamps will keep these locations the same?

Because that role also existed historically in China. They just weren't distinguished by look or title. Chinese assassins would have looked like any regular person, much like modern day CIA operatives don't have a specific 'look' to them, they're intended to blend into society to avoid being noticed. Just like historically, China also had pirates, but they wouldn't have looked like swashbucklers wearing funny hats and peglegs. There was no uniform or look, they were just Chinese people who happened to be pirates.

The modern depiction of Ninjas is also a result of pop culture, not of actual historic reference. Look at how the designs carried into Chinese movies, like Iron Monkey. This is a pop culture twist depicting Wong Fei Hung, a historic Chinese folk hero who never wore Ninja outfits.

Ninjas in Japan actually didn't wear this kind of stuff either. It's all a result of pop culture depictions.

https://www.wayofninja.com/do-ninjas...%20this%20myth.

While there are people who strongly believe that ninjas wore all-black costumes with masks, which revealed only the eyes, historical facts and common sense does not support this myth.

The idea that ninja wore all-black costumes came from prop-handlers of the Kabuki theatre. The black costume was meant to allow prop handlers to blend with the background and look mundane as compared to the actors.


On a side note, you can see the same thing about pop culture influencing the idea of horned or winged 'Viking Helmets'. All that came from promotional material for Wagner's Operas. Historic Vikings never had winged or horned helmets. We still call the horned helmet a Viking Helmet today only because of pop culture, not because of historic accuracy.

I know all that. I'm not talking specifically about the garment, but the organization. Ninjas are associated with japan. How come the predominantly chinese pandaria dares to have japanese cultural influences? I thought it was a big no no. The reality is, everyone steals from other cultures, so there is always some kind of an overlap.

From Wikipedia:
The conquest by the Mogu in Pandaria resembles the Mongol conquest of China.


At one point in history, the Mongols took over China and established their own dynasty. The Mogu are based on that part of Chinese history, when the Mongols actually control and became royal leaders of the people. These Mongols adopted aspects of Chinese culture to better integrate themselves and rule over the people they've dominated. They learned the Chinese language, they wore Chinese clothing, they adopted Chinese religion and philosophy. The Pandaren relationship with the Mogu parallels the Han people's relationship with their former Mongolian rulers. Similarities basically end there though, since history was a lot more nuanced and the Mongolians weren't exactly tyrannical like the Mogu.

The Yaungol are based on Mongolian Culture. The nomadic lifestyle, living on the steppes, etc.

Two completely different aspects of the same people, represented by two different fictional races.

You took just one aspect.
Why would pandaria need 2 mongolian races?

"According to Sima Qian, over 700,000 slaves, indentured servants, and prisoners of war were forced to construct the figures. The power and authority that emperor Qin Shi Huang had over his dominion can immediately be inferred from this record."

Except your entire theme has little to do with Pandaria. You're intention is to explore new races and culture centered on Japanese themes. Itachi, Tengu, Tanuki and the like don't exist on Pandaria. We've already explored the continent and know what races inhabit those lands.

If you want to explore those kind of races in a Pandaria-like setting, just create a new one that has a historic connection to Pandaria's existing races. No need to revamp Pandaria itself. You're basically trying to fix something that isn't broke, and it just breaks the world itself even more for shoehorning more things into a place that doesn't really need more different races and cultures to explore.

I've got Pandaria locations and races. I can't just ditch them.

I'm gonna need you to explain exactly what you think is political about not liking slavery in the Horde

That it comes from your outside world view. In 2004, we wouldn't be talking about this in a fantasy video game.

First off, the Sword in the Shadows / Watchers on the Wall were inspired by the Night's Watch in Game of Thrones. Like, word for word.

Beyond that, China had its own history of spies and assassins, and the founding ninja clans were inspired by Chinese military teachings like Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Like i told Triceron, everyone at one point borrowed from others.

[Daedius]

Slavery is for those too weak to live under their own strength, it has no place in the Horde.


Edit: And frankly it's past time for some Mogu to realize all it does is weaken their society, given how it backfired on them in the past.

Pft

Then give them a wage like $12/hour.

Low wage jobs are effectively slavery, and the employer doesn't have to shelter or feed you...!

[Triceron]

Draenor introduced the Saberon, Botani, Hippos and other creatures. You really believe the revamps will keep these locations the same?

Draenor and Outland are two different states, two different worlds. Draenor existed before Outland and we'd never seen it pre-corruption. WoD allowed us to time travel to explore Draenor as it was before becoming Outland, so it makes sense to introduce creatures we hadn't seen before to a place we've never explored.

Pandaria is already explored. You would do this to Pandaria? Destroy it and remake it in your vision?

Where do these weasels and Tengu and Tanuki suddenly come from?


And no, I don't expect Quel'thalas to get a host of new races. We don't know much about Midnight or The Last Titan's settings yet. We just know Quel'thalas will be a major feature, not that it will be the only zone available. If we have new races introduced, I'd expect them to be in new zones.

I know all that. I'm not talking specifically about the garment, but the organization. Ninjas are associated with japan.

But Shadopan aren't actually ninjas. They're ninja-like only in appearance, which is why we're talking about it. You understand that the source of that quote comes from the Art of Mists of Pandaria and the press conferences, not actual lore right? Ninja like is a generalization of their appearance. They're an organization of shadow elite fighters otherwise. And such organizations existed in Chinese history. They just didn't wear black clothing and face coverings like the pop culture Ninja appearance that I previously talked about.

I've got Pandaria locations and races. I can't just ditch them.

Why can't you create new ones? Ones that even better fit a Japanese influenced setting?

[Eldryth]

That honorable Horde is bullshit. We've seen so multiple times as you've mentioned below. It's an excuse.

As I said, making the Horde as a whole turn to villainy so often was a colossal mistake- the most egregious writing issue in a time when we've been having a lot of poorly-written expansions. It worked with Garrosh because he and his supporters were very much an internal threat that the honorable Horde overcame, but making the Mag'har turn to conquest without demonic influence? Having most of the Horde act completely out-of-character to support Sylvanas for much of BFA? Neither of them worked at all, and the latter, especially, made the Horde completely unlikable.

Warcraft 3 shifting away from the generic "good Humans vs. evil Orcs" and creating more nuanced factions is what made Warcraft into a great setting in the first place. They should be fixing this, not doubling down on those mistakes. Splinter groups are one thing, but the Horde as a whole should value honor and freedom. With the writing seeming a lot better lately, and Metzen returning, I have high hopes that the Horde will return as its true self once they come back into focus.

Why automatically brand them as evil? What if they don't view this as evilness, but a way of life?

First off, there is no context where slavery is anything other than evil. It's one subject that moral relativism absolutely does not work on. It can work for villains, but never for the honorable protagonists that the Horde are supposed to be.

Second, it is an absolutely horrible fit for the Horde's values and history. The Horde is literally off of Thrall's opposition to slavery- the Orcs were enslaved/imprisoned (depending on who was running each camp, but conditions were universally awful), and he created the New Horde based on honor and freedom. It's why Varian's backstory is such a weird thing that makes absolutely no sense- they wanted to make him a mirror to Thrall, and ignored the fact that it doesn't fit at all for the Horde to enslave him in the first place.

Did you miss the part where i listed Orcish Blademaster abilities like Mirror Image, Bladestorm, Wind Walk and Blazegreaze?

Anyway, the Orcish Blademasters are furthest from being honorable. They used to consume demonic blood. Even in real life, Samurais were not really honorable. The honor talked about, either in real-life or in-game, is more like respect among gang members. The more you kill, the more respect you get. If someone tarnished your reputation, you'd have to deal with them. It's not about being merciful or fair.

You gave them Blademaster abilities, but tied them to a completely different culture and lost the entire lore behind them.

As for their honor:
From Warcraft 3's manual:

Though their numbers are few, the seasoned blademasters represent an elite fighting force within the Horde. These skilled swordsmen were once part of the ill-fated Burning Blade clan which consumed itself in the throes of demonic corruption. With their clan scattered and broken, the proud blademasters swore a grim oath to free themselves and their brethren from demonic control once and for all. Under Thrall's command, the blademasters once again joined the Horde and came to serve as the young Warchief's personal honor guard. Though blademasters are masters of stealth and guile, they value personal honor above all else.

And Samuro's bio from HotS:

Samuro, the last remaining Blademaster to wear the banner of the Burning Blade, is on a warrior's pilgrimage in search of vengeance and redemption for his fallen clan. It will be a long journey, but he has sworn an oath to restore his clan's honor.

Yes, they consumed demon blood, in a time when most Orcs did. But they are the ones who were most committed to redemption, and fought to restore the Orcs' honor and freedom. They became the champions of the Horde's positive traits. That's what makes them such a cool concept, and it's really annoying that they've been so absent from the actual games that all of this has only been shown in manuals. Even in Warcraft 3, they were mostly absent from the campaign and we got just got Grom using Blademaster abilities despite not being one instead.

What's the point of making it completely the same?
Would you consider it a sucessful revamp if you just experienced Pandaria again as it was in MoP?

Whenever we get revamp expansions, they should be believably changed by current events and remain recognizable, not be completely rewritten.

Take the upcoming Midnight for example. If Blizzard handles it well, Quel'thalas should be expanded, and greatly affected by the Void invasion (and other events that occurred since TBC), but it should still be very much recognizable as the same Quel'thalas we know. If we get back there and find that the Thalassian Elves suddenly have a completely different culture, living alongside a ton of other races we've never heard of but were supposedly there all along... it'd just be weird.

Draenor and Northrend had/have more flexibility due to the scope of the events that had occurred there. Draenor had a lot of changes from Outland, with some new races... but given that Outland was a version of the world that had literally exploded, it was very much believable that those missing races could have gone extinct and the zones reshaped into Outland. And Northrend is kind of a blank slate for The Last Titan given that we kind of wiped out the vast majority of its inhabitants. The Scourge lost, the Nerubians, Drakkari, and Vrykul were wiped out, the factions and Dragons went back home... a few friendly factions like the Frostborne and Sholazar races are probably still there, but I think all we really know about its current state is that the Ebon Blade is keeping Scourge remnants in check.

But neither of those justifications exist for Pandaria. It's a friendly nation, and it and its inhabitants remain completely intact despite the Vale's corruption and the Peak of Serenity falling to the Legion. Why would they suddenly have a completely different culture and different inhabitants?

And why use Pandaria at all if you're just going to change it into something completely different?

The Horde shouldn't adhere to political correctness.

Political correctness has absolutely nothing to do with anything here. The Horde are supposed to be heroes in their own right, even if the writers completely failed at that for a while. Adding slavery would not only make them clear-cut villains, but it clashes so horribly with their history and values that it would never actually fit.

[username993720]

Draenor and Outland are two different states, two different worlds. Draenor existed before Outland and we'd never seen it pre-corruption. WoD allowed us to time travel to explore Draenor as it was before becoming Outland, so it makes sense to introduce creatures we hadn't seen before to a place we've never explored.

How did Ettin suddenly appear in Lordaeron during Cataclysm? Monkeys in Stranglethorn? Foxes in the Eastern Kingdoms?

Pandaria is already explored. You would do this to Pandaria? Destroy it and remake it in your vision?

Where do these weasels and Tengu and Tanuki suddenly come from?

Several options:

1. They were always there, but we didn't encounter them.
2. They immigrated from nearby areas after the dispersion of the mists.
3. They were created during our absence from Pandaria.

And no, I don't expect Quel'thalas to get a host of new races. We don't know much about Midnight or The Last Titan's settings yet. We just know Quel'thalas will be a major feature, not that it will be the only zone available. If we have new races introduced, I'd expect them to be in new zones.

Where would new zones suddenly spring in Quel'thalas and Northrend?

But Shadopan aren't actually ninjas. They're ninja-like only in appearance, which is why we're talking about it. You understand that the source of that quote comes from the Art of Mists of Pandaria and the press conferences, not actual lore right? Ninja like is a generalization of their appearance. They're an organization of shadow elite fighters otherwise. And such organizations existed in Chinese history. They just didn't wear black clothing and face coverings like the pop culture Ninja appearance that I previously talked about.

Using Ninja stars and sais isn't Ninja?

Why can't you create new ones? Ones that even better fit a Japanese influenced setting?

Because they're an integral part of the concept.
It wouldn't exist without them.

As I said, making the Horde as a whole turn to villainy so often was a colossal mistake- the most egregious writing issue in a time when we've been having a lot of poorly-written expansions. It worked with Garrosh because he and his supporters were very much an internal threat that the honorable Horde overcame, but making the Mag'har turn to conquest without demonic influence? Having most of the Horde act completely out-of-character to support Sylvanas for much of BFA? Neither of them worked at all, and the latter, especially, made the Horde completely unlikable.

Yet, Garrosh was the interesting character, not Thrall.

Sylvanas being the antagonist was poorly made. She should have stayed in the shadows, not be Warchief. That's where female empowerment went wrong. Her power level is over 9000? Come on... doesn't mean she shouldn't be evil. That has always been the characteristic of the Forsaken.

Maga'har being savages without demonic blood? Expected. This is what Orcs are. That's just an excuse. Like Dark Iron wickedness coming from their enslavement to Ragnaros.

Let races be who they really are, instead of trying to unite them under one characteristic - altruism.

Warcraft 3 shifting away from the generic "good Humans vs. evil Orcs" and creating more nuanced factions is what made Warcraft into a great setting in the first place. They should be fixing this, not doubling down on those mistakes. Splinter groups are one thing, but the Horde as a whole should value honor and freedom. With the writing seeming a lot better lately, and Metzen returning, I have high hopes that the Horde will return as its true self once they come back into focus.

It's what made them playable.
If it is better? I don't know.
Warlocks were unique to Orc culture. Outlawing them kinda diminished that aspect.

First off, there is no context where slavery is anything other than evil. It's one subject that moral relativism absolutely does not work on. It can work for villains, but never for the honorable protagonists that the Horde are supposed to be.

Eating dogs might seem evil to one culture, yet totally normal for another.

Second, it is an absolutely horrible fit for the Horde's values and history. The Horde is literally off of Thrall's opposition to slavery- the Orcs were enslaved/imprisoned (depending on who was running each camp, but conditions were universally awful), and he created the New Horde based on honor and freedom. It's why Varian's backstory is such a weird thing that makes absolutely no sense- they wanted to make him a mirror to Thrall, and ignored the fact that it doesn't fit at all for the Horde to enslave him in the first place.

I think it's great for the Horde. It sets them apart from the Alliance. It fits the Orcs, Goblins and Forsaken. Less so the other races. I wouldn't mind it in the Alliance as well. Internment camps and xenophobia is something i'd totally attribute to them.

You gave them Blademaster abilities, but tied them to a completely different culture and lost the entire lore behind them.

What? I tied them to several races. Mainly the Orcs and Night elves. The reason the Jinyu are the teachers is because it takes place in Pandaria.

As for their honor:
From Warcraft 3's manual:


And Samuro's bio from HotS:

Yes, they consumed demon blood, in a time when most Orcs did. But they are the ones who were most committed to redemption, and fought to restore the Orcs' honor and freedom. They became the champions of the Horde's positive traits. That's what makes them such a cool concept, and it's really annoying that they've been so absent from the actual games that all of this has only been shown in manuals. Even in Warcraft 3, they were mostly absent from the campaign and we got just got Grom using Blademaster abilities despite not being one instead.

"They are led by Arnak Fireblade and Mordak Darkfist (Warlocks), who noted that there were few of their clan that remain loyal to the Horde."

"Orcish recruits can approach Lantresor and request to join the Burning Blade, only to be rejected as the blademaster was of the opinion that all but a few dishonorable Burning Blade are dead, fel-corrupted, or traitors, both on Azeroth and on Outland. He expressed that the Burning Blade didn't deserve their loyalty and that the clan was accursed and should wither and die."

Whenever we get revamp expansions, they should be believably changed by current events and remain recognizable, not be completely rewritten.

Take the upcoming Midnight for example. If Blizzard handles it well, Quel'thalas should be expanded, and greatly affected by the Void invasion (and other events that occurred since TBC), but it should still be very much recognizable as the same Quel'thalas we know. If we get back there and find that the Thalassian Elves suddenly have a completely different culture, living alongside a ton of other races we've never heard of but were supposedly there all along... it'd just be weird.

Draenor and Northrend had/have more flexibility due to the scope of the events that had occurred there. Draenor had a lot of changes from Outland, with some new races... but given that Outland was a version of the world that had literally exploded, it was very much believable that those missing races could have gone extinct and the zones reshaped into Outland. And Northrend is kind of a blank slate for The Last Titan given that we kind of wiped out the vast majority of its inhabitants. The Scourge lost, the Nerubians, Drakkari, and Vrykul were wiped out, the factions and Dragons went back home... a few friendly factions like the Frostborne and Sholazar races are probably still there, but I think all we really know about its current state is that the Ebon Blade is keeping Scourge remnants in check.

But neither of those justifications exist for Pandaria. It's a friendly nation, and it and its inhabitants remain completely intact despite the Vale's corruption and the Peak of Serenity falling to the Legion. Why would they suddenly have a completely different culture and different inhabitants?

And why use Pandaria at all if you're just going to change it into something completely different?

What do you mean completely different? Didn't you see the same locations and races of MoP featuring in my concept? I just added more to it as it can't stay the same.

Political correctness has absolutely nothing to do with anything here. The Horde are supposed to be heroes in their own right, even if the writers completely failed at that for a while. Adding slavery would not only make them clear-cut villains, but it clashes so horribly with their history and values that it would never actually fit.

I think you missed the extensive list of all of the slavery the Horde have already used?

Against their values? Goblins using slaves doesn't make sense? They were enslaved themselves by Trolls, yet their characteristics as these selfish, greedy assholes using slaves makes perfect sense. The Forsaken who enjoy nothing more than torturing and experimenting on the living, do not make sense as slavemasters? The Orcs, who value domination and control through strength, do not make sense? If they added Ogres, this will literally be part of their culture.

[Skytotem]

That it comes from your outside world view. In 2004, we wouldn't be talking about this in a fantasy video game.

Bullshit. I care about the Horde doing slavery period, it has nothing to do with 'outside' world view. If the orcs had slaves in Vanilla we'd all have pointed out it was horseshit because it doesn't make sense for Thrall or the orcs to allow it.

For all the same reasons later rolled out in MoP.

slavery means your people don't have the skills to do shit themselves, it makes them weak and creates an entire class of people who profit from your society's defeat if you're ever attacked.

It's stupid and people who want it in the Horde have a ridiculous view of what slavery is both historically and in fantasy.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you missed the extensive list of all of the slavery the Horde have already used?

Against their values? Goblins using slaves doesn't make sense? They were enslaved themselves by Trolls, yet their characteristics as these selfish, greedy assholes using slaves makes perfect sense. The Forsaken who enjoy nothing more than torturing and experimenting on the living, do not make sense as slavemasters? The Orcs, who value domination and control through strength, do not make sense? If they added Ogres, this will literally be part of their culture.

People and cultures aren't monoliths, and some questgivers are criminals or doing things unofficially.

[username993720]

Bullshit. I care about the Horde doing slavery period, it has nothing to do with 'outside' world view. If the orcs had slaves in Vanilla we'd all have pointed out it was horseshit because it doesn't make sense for Thrall or the orcs to allow it.

Then, what about all the examples i listed?
You just now remember to protest against it?

People and cultures aren't monoliths, and some questgivers are criminals or doing things unofficially.

So, you decide which NPCs are right and which are wrong?

[LemonDemonGirl]

....or other Japanese inspired races like Kitsune (multi-tailed offshoot of Vulpera).

Ok but I think they should be taller and more humanoid than the Vulpera. People might complain they're too similar to the Worgen but whatever lol

[username993720]

Ok but I think they should be taller and more humanoid than the Vulpera. People might complain they're too similar to the Worgen but whatever lol

Kitsune, in this concept, is a spirit fox.
We don't need yet another humanoid fox people. There's the Tanuki for that.

[Triceron]

How did Ettin suddenly appear in Lordaeron during Cataclysm? Monkeys in Stranglethorn? Foxes in the Eastern Kingdoms?

Ettin existed in Twilight Highlands and Gilneas, which were never before explorable. They then spill into Lordaeron. It makes sense. Your other examples are creatures and critters, which aren't races we interact with. I'm talking about walking, talking races which suddenly double in number in a certain place. Why would that happen? Where were they when we first explored Pandaria?

We're not talking about adding a few new turtles or frogs to Pandaria. We're talking about a host of new races, and on top of that they're races derived from an entirely different cultural folklore. It's more a lack of reasonable explanation and expectation for creatures of an entirely different cultural folklore to suddenly appear in Pandaria.

Similarly, it would be like if Quel'thalas suddenly expanded with Forest Gnomes and Mushroom people and Sylvar and Cenarions just because it's a forest. There's no real rhyme or reason for that to happen. Quel'thalas is inhabited by the Elves as the dominant race, and that's how it's been in history and in introduction to WoW. I wouldn't expect them to expand it with more 'races that fit a Forest theme' just because Quel'thalas is a forested zone.

Several options:

1. They were always there, but we didn't encounter them.
2. They immigrated from nearby areas after the dispersion of the mists.
3. They were created during our absence from Pandaria.

Immigrated from where? We've explored the entirity of Pandaria. And if they immigrated from some nearby area, like a neighbouring island, then why not explore that location instead?

I'm not sure if you fully understand that many of Pandaria's locales are specifically referencing Chinese folklore. Places like Kunlai Summit is a direct homage to the mythological Kunlun mountains.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_(mythology)

It doesn't make sense for it to suddenly have japanese mythological creatures arising from it, especially when Japanese myth has their own mountainous locations to derive from, like Mt. Fuji.

If you simply wanted to expand on 'creatures that were always there but not encountered', why wouldn't you draw from Chinese mythology for it? Take for example, the Shanhaijing, a bestiary of different mythical creatures and locales from Chinese history and folklore. Even the 9-tailed Fox is depicted here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classi...tains_and_Seas

A 9-Tailed Fox spirit is a decent addition since they do appear in Chinese mythology (prominent figure in Investiture of the Gods), but not under the name 'Kitsune'. It would more likely be named more similarly to 'Huli Jing' (Fox spirit/demon) or 'Juiwei hu' (9-tailed fox). Similar to how Jinyu is the literal word for 'Goldfish' or Hozen is derived from Houzi, the chinese word for monkey.

Where would new zones suddenly spring in Quel'thalas and Northrend?

Who says Quel'thalas and Northrend are the only places we will visit in those expansions? We don't know enough about what kind of questing structure would be in the game. After all, Midnight also deals with a global Void invasion, meaning they could take our players questing in any number of different zones as we defend against invasive forces, culminating with Quel'thalas as an end-zone that is being attacked by all sorts of Void beings. Then the new types of creatures we might see could be twisted manifestations of existing fauna, or alien-like creatures from the Void. Who knows at this point?

My point being, it's not like if we went back to Zandalar, we'd suddenly encounter 5 new types of sentient races who were always living there but never encountered. And it would make even less sense if these were creatures of a completely different cultural background, like say giving them all an Australia theme and having Koala people and Kangaroo people existing on Zandalar, for little rhyme or reason.

What you're doing here is tapping specifically into Japanese mythology that doesn't exist or has no parallel in Chinese myth. At best, the 9-tailed fox would be acceptable since they do appear in Chinese mythology as well (Investiture of the Gods). Tengu, Tanuki, Itachi and Kappa are specifically Japanese though; there are no equivalents in Chinese myth.

Using Ninja stars and sais isn't Ninja?

Actually, that would be another result of pop culture. In the same way we immediately identify big horned helmets as 'Viking Helmets', we associate those exotic weapons with ninjas because of pop culture. Sais exist as Chinese weaponry too. They're not a weapon that is specific to Ninjitsu. In fact, Ninjitsu may have not used this weapon widely at all, since Sais are generally used as defensive weapons that excel at disarming opponents, rather than be used for stealth and assassination. We only associate them to Ninjas because of TMNT.

The sai (Japanese: 釵, lit. 'hairpin'; Chinese: 鐵尺, lit. 'iron ruler') is a pointed melee weapon from Okinawa. It is historically utilized in martial arts such as Okinawan kobudō and southern Chinese martial arts, and has been absorbed into the curriculum of many modern martial arts.

Before its use in Okinawa, similar weapons were already being used in other Asian countries including India, Thailand, China, Vietnam, Malaysia, and Indonesia.[1] The basic concept of the sai may have been brought to Okinawa from one or several of these places over time.

So honestly speaking, pop culture depiction of Ninjas aren't really historically accurate, and I would go as far as saying is culturally agnostic in how far removed it is from the actual historic source. It's like calling the California Roll Japanese cuisine; it's really not Japanese at all. Just like New York Pizza isn't really Italian cuisine. And let's be clear - the Pandaren are a Chinese inspired fantasy race created through the lens of Western pop culture. Much in the same vein TMNT are created through the lens of Western pop culture and how it views Ninjas, moreso than actual Japanese history and folklore.

Because they're an integral part of the concept.
It wouldn't exist without them.

It's fiction. You're telling me that kappa, tengu, tanuki, itachi, and all the other Japanese styled fictional races can only exist in Pandaria and no where else?

We could have the expansion set on the fictional Ryuken (Dragon Sword) Island, the Isle of the Rising Sun, found off the coast of Pandaria. A place where Pandaren explorers once visited and briefly settled, built temples and interacted with the locals, and then left. As a result, they let the fledgling races of Ryuken evolve into a culture that better fits Feudal Japan and Japanese myth. There are countless islands out there in the Great Sea. It could even be the fictional setting where a wanderer like Chen Stormstout could have met and battled Samuro, where their duel in the Heroes of the Storm cinematic may have really taken place.

[Skytotem]

Then, what about all the examples i listed?
You just now remember to protest against it?



So, you decide which NPCs are right and which are wrong?

I always hated when they put that nonsense in because it's evidence Blizz isn't being consistent

[username993720]

Ettin existed in Twilight Highlands and Gilneas, which were never before explorable. They then spill into Lordaeron. It makes sense. Your other examples are creatures and critters, which aren't races we interact with. I'm talking about walking, talking races which suddenly double in number in a certain place. Why would that happen? Where were they when we first explored Pandaria?

What's the difference? Beasts cannot appear out of nowhere as much as humanoids.

We're not talking about adding a few new turtles or frogs to Pandaria. We're talking about a host of new races, and on top of that they're races derived from an entirely different cultural folklore. It's more a lack of reasonable explanation and expectation for creatures of an entirely different cultural folklore to suddenly appear in Pandaria.

You have Mongols with the Yaungols, tibetans with the Grummles (Sherpa), some japanese with the Mogu (Oni), some cambodian and japanese with the Jinyu (Khmer and Koi), some islam with the Mantid, and my creature concepts are too foreign?

Similarly, it would be like if Quel'thalas suddenly expanded with Forest Gnomes and Mushroom people and Sylvar and Cenarions just because it's a forest. There's no real rhyme or reason for that to happen. Quel'thalas is inhabited by the Elves as the dominant race, and that's how it's been in history and in introduction to WoW. I wouldn't expect them to expand it with more 'races that fit a Forest theme' just because Quel'thalas is a forested zone.

I would.
It makes perfect sense for the Blood elves to be more Druidic. Their Rangers are already in-tune with nature.

Immigrated from where? We've explored the entirity of Pandaria. And if they immigrated from some nearby area, like a neighbouring island, then why not explore that location instead?

Who said we've explored the entirety of Pandaria?
1. The island could be too small to carry an entire expansion.
2. The island doesn't, necessarily, house all of the creatures in my concept.

I'm not sure if you fully understand that many of Pandaria's locales are specifically referencing Chinese folklore. Places like Kunlai Summit is a direct homage to the mythological Kunlun mountains.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_(mythology)

Yes, i know that.
Do these mountains contain a shado pan-like organization in mythology? A Monk training grounds, perhaps? If not, then they're just mountains with a refernce for a name that can be used for anything else.

It doesn't make sense for it to suddenly have japanese mythological creatures arising from it, especially when Japanese myth has their own mountainous locations to derive from, like Mt. Fuji.

Yes, it can.
It is just a mountain range in-game. There's nothing too specific for it that it can't be used for something else.

If you simply wanted to expand on 'creatures that were always there but not encountered', why wouldn't you draw from Chinese mythology for it? Take for example, the Shanhaijing, a bestiary of different mythical creatures and locales from Chinese history and folklore. Even the 9-tailed Fox is depicted here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classi...tains_and_Seas

A 9-Tailed Fox spirit is a decent addition since they do appear in Chinese mythology (prominent figure in Investiture of the Gods), but not under the name 'Kitsune'. It would more likely be named more similarly to 'Huli Jing' (Fox spirit/demon) or 'Juiwei hu' (9-tailed fox). Similar to how Jinyu is the literal word for 'Goldfish' or Hozen is derived from Houzi, the chinese word for monkey.

Because this is a japanese expansion, based around the samurai. You want to call that Huli Jing or Juiwei Hu? By all means, call it that. I don't really care as long as the fantasy is conveyed.

Who says Quel'thalas and Northrend are the only places we will visit in those expansions? We don't know enough about what kind of questing structure would be in the game. After all, Midnight also deals with a global Void invasion, meaning they could take our players questing in any number of different zones as we defend against invasive forces, culminating with Quel'thalas as an end-zone that is being attacked by all sorts of Void beings. Then the new types of creatures we might see could be twisted manifestations of existing fauna, or alien-like creatures from the Void. Who knows at this point?

I don't think Quel'thalas is an end-zone. I think it's a continent.

My point being, it's not like if we went back to Zandalar, we'd suddenly encounter 5 new types of sentient races who were always living there but never encountered. And it would make even less sense if these were creatures of a completely different cultural background, like say giving them all an Australia theme and having Koala people and Kangaroo people existing on Zandalar, for little rhyme or reason.

You're going too far.
Japan and China overlap in many things. Australia and let's say, central america, are far apart.

What you're doing here is tapping specifically into Japanese mythology that doesn't exist or has no parallel in Chinese myth. At best, the 9-tailed fox would be acceptable since they do appear in Chinese mythology as well (Investiture of the Gods). Tengu, Tanuki, Itachi and Kappa are specifically Japanese though; there are no equivalents in Chinese myth.

You're again thinking Pandaria is chinese only when i already showed you the many cultural inspirations it has.

"Initially, the tengu was not a Japanese yōkai at all. Its origins lie in China, where the word tiangou, written with the same characters (天狗), means “celestial dog.” The creature was a kind of ill-omened comet or meteor, the roar of which as it entered the earth's atmosphere was believed to resemble a dog's bark."

"Raccoon dogs (also known as a 'tanuki' or a Japanese raccoon dog) aren't raccoons – they're members of the canid (dog) family. They're native to the forests of eastern Siberia, northern China, northern Vietnam, Korea and Japan."

Actually, that would be another result of pop culture. In the same way we immediately identify big horned helmets as 'Viking Helmets', we associate those exotic weapons with ninjas because of pop culture. Sais exist as Chinese weaponry too. They're not a weapon that is specific to Ninjitsu. In fact, Ninjitsu may have not used this weapon widely at all, since Sais are generally used as defensive weapons that excel at disarming opponents, rather than be used for stealth and assassination. We only associate them to Ninjas because of TMNT.

The sai (Japanese: 釵, lit. 'hairpin'; Chinese: 鐵尺, lit. 'iron ruler') is a pointed melee weapon from Okinawa. It is historically utilized in martial arts such as Okinawan kobudō and southern Chinese martial arts, and has been absorbed into the curriculum of many modern martial arts.

Before its use in Okinawa, similar weapons were already being used in other Asian countries including India, Thailand, China, Vietnam, Malaysia, and Indonesia.[1] The basic concept of the sai may have been brought to Okinawa from one or several of these places over time.

So honestly speaking, pop culture depiction of Ninjas aren't really historically accurate, and I would go as far as saying is culturally agnostic in how far removed it is from the actual historic source. It's like calling the California Roll Japanese cuisine; it's really not Japanese at all. Just like New York Pizza isn't really Italian cuisine. And let's be clear - the Pandaren are a Chinese inspired fantasy race created through the lens of Western pop culture. Much in the same vein TMNT are Ninjas only in name.

Great. That gives us even more incentive to use Pandaria as a setting for a japanese expansion.
I don't expect fantasy to be historically accurate.

It's fiction. You're telling me that kappa, tengu, tanuki, itachi, and all the other Japanese styled fictional races which don't yet exist, can only exist in Pandaria and no where else?

We could have the expansion set on the fictional Ryuken (Dragon Sword) Island, the Isle of the Rising Sun, found off the coast of Pandaria. A place where Pandaren explorers once visited and briefly settled, built temples and interacted with the locals, and then left. As a result, they let the fledgling races of Ryuken evolve into a culture that better fits Feudal Japan and Japanese myth. There are countless islands out there in the Great Sea. It could even be the fictional setting where a wanderer like Chen Stormstout could have met and battled Samuro, where their duel in the Heroes of the Storm cinematic may have really taken place.

I'm not talking about my made up creatures. I'm talking about the races and places that are native to Pandaria. I use Yaungol and Mogu in my concept, and specifically locations like Townlong Steppes and Kun Lai Mountain. I can't just replicate it to another continent. That's the reason i didn't make up a solar, lunar and earth deities for the concept and used what was already there - Elune, An'she and the Earth Mother. Do you think they will dedicate an entire new continent to another asian expansion, and a japanese one at that?

I always hated when they put that nonsense in because it's evidence Blizz isn't being consistent

I want one Horde and you want another.
I guess that's why there are so many versions of the Horde.

[Eldryth]

Yet, Garrosh was the interesting character, not Thrall.

Sylvanas being the antagonist was poorly made. She should have stayed in the shadows, not be Warchief. That's where female empowerment went wrong. Her power level is over 9000? Come on... doesn't mean she shouldn't be evil. That has always been the characteristic of the Forsaken.

Maga'har being savages without demonic blood? Expected. This is what Orcs are. That's just an excuse. Like Dark Iron wickedness coming from their enslavement to Ragnaros.

Let races be who they really are, instead of trying to unite them under one characteristic - altruism.

What makes for a great antagonist is completely different from what makes a great protagonist. Garrosh was great precisely because he clashed with the identity of the current Horde. And the Horde rejected him, rose up, and overthrew him. The true, honorable, Horde is what remained, and it took extremely forced, out-of-character writing for them to go along with Sylvanas's war crimes after that. But even that ended with the true Horde turning against her and returning, albeit with a completely failed attempt to build up to it.

And Thrall is mainly uninteresting now because the writers chose to separate him from his Horde- our Horde, and give him really bad personal arcs instead.

Conquest is decisively not what the Orcs were without demon blood until WoD. They were originally a collection of tribal cultures, peacefully coexisting with both each other and the Draenei. Only the Frostwolves and Rulkan's Shadowmoon felt true to the original depiction in WoD, and like BFA, the rest is so out of character that it really only makes sense if that was another major difference between the timelines.

And make no mistake, I am arguing for Orcs to be Orcs here. They should not be defined by the time they were enslaved by demons, especially when their actual tribal culture is far more interesting and just as distinct from the Alliance.

It's what made them playable.
If it is better? I don't know.
Warlocks were unique to Orc culture. Outlawing them kinda diminished that aspect.

They were always playable before Warcraft 3 fleshed them out, and making them an actual culture with their own merits was a massive improvement over the generic evil monster army they were prior to that. And were a new thing that subverted Orc culture, they were very far from their true identity. Shamans are the core of Orc culture.

Eating dogs might seem evil to one culture, yet totally normal for another.



I think it's great for the Horde. It sets them apart from the Alliance. It fits the Orcs, Goblins and Forsaken. Less so the other races. I wouldn't mind it in the Alliance as well. Internment camps and xenophobia is something i'd totally attribute to them.

It absolutely does not fit the Orcs. As has been explained many times over, the Orcs were literally enslaved twice over (first by the Legion and then by the Alliance (but really mostly Lordaeron)). The current Horde was founded on Thrall's revolution to liberate the Orcs. Freedom is one of their strongest ideals. For them to live through slavery, acknowledge it as the great evil it universally is, only to do it themselves when they're free from demonic influence and trying to properly coexist with the other races (particularly when it was clearly not part of their culture on Draenor) would be outright absurd.

And while many things could be seen as good or evil to different cultures, slavery is absolutely not one of them. It can be depicted, but any group that does it would unambiguously be a villain- something the Horde as a whole is not.

What? I tied them to several races. Mainly the Orcs and Night elves. The reason the Jinyu are the teachers is because it takes place in Pandaria.

And that is something that simply does not fit. Blademasters are completely Orcish at the core, having it come from another culture and not heavily include their existing premise would fundamentally change it into something less interesting. Frankly, I think it would fit far better in a Kalimdor revamp, especially given how much has been going on there (between the new Draenei city, the Orcs restoring life to Durotar, and the Night Elves reclaiming their homes).

"They are led by Arnak Fireblade and Mordak Darkfist (Warlocks), who noted that there were few of their clan that remain loyal to the Horde."

"Orcish recruits can approach Lantresor and request to join the Burning Blade, only to be rejected as the blademaster was of the opinion that all but a few dishonorable Burning Blade are dead, fel-corrupted, or traitors, both on Azeroth and on Outland. He expressed that the Burning Blade didn't deserve their loyalty and that the clan was accursed and should wither and die."

Yes, as I mentioned, little remains of the Burning Blade right now aside from a few assorted Warlocks and Blademasters and Lantresor wants to let them die out. But that choice isn't only his to make- if Samuro's HotS bio is canon, then he's out there determined to redeem the Burning Blade, rather than letting them end in dishonor. I stand by saying that the most interesting premise to introduce Blademasters is to have him rebuild the clan from scratch, inviting anyone who wants to be a Blademaster to join. I've even said that it could lead to conflict with Lantresor based on the very quote you referenced.

What do you mean completely different? Didn't you see the same locations and races of MoP featuring in my concept? I just added more to it as it can't stay the same.

You gave the Pandaren a completely different culture, gave the other existing races a token presence, and filled it with so many new things that it doesn't remotely feel like the same place anymore.

I think you missed the extensive list of all of the slavery the Horde have already used?

Against their values? Goblins using slaves doesn't make sense? They were enslaved themselves by Trolls, yet their characteristics as these selfish, greedy assholes using slaves makes perfect sense. The Forsaken who enjoy nothing more than torturing and experimenting on the living, do not make sense as slavemasters? The Orcs, who value domination and control through strength, do not make sense? If they added Ogres, this will literally be part of their culture.

Goblins and Undead are the only races it makes any sense for, but it clashes so horribly with the Horde's identity as a whole that, if it still existed at all, it should have been a major source of internal conflict. It was literally founded off of the Orcs' escape from slavery and holds freedom as one of their greatest ideals.

[Triceron]

What's the difference? Beasts cannot appear out of nowhere as much as humanoids.

The difference is questing and world building is built around various sentient races that we encounter, not around the beasts that inhabit the lands.

Your intention is not to just add weasels and foxes to Pandaria, your intention is to add new sentient races and world build off of that. But Pandaria is simply not a good fit for your intent to include more Japanese myth to the world.

You have Mongols with the Yaungols, tibetans with the Grummles (Sherpa), some japanese with the Mogu (Oni), some cambodian and japanese with the Jinyu (Khmer and Koi), some islam with the Mantid, and my creature concepts are too foreign?

Because all of these have connections to Chinese history and folklore.

Mongols are tied to Chinese history. Mogu aren't actual Oni, and their designs are actually built off Chinese styled Stone Lions while their culture is built off of the Mongolian rulers of the Yuan Dynasty. Jinyu are based on Chinese merfolk and Chinese Goldfish, even if their architecture and look may be inspired by other sources as well. The name Jinyu literally means Goldfish, and goldfish are very important to Chinese culture as well. They signify wealth and fortune. It's all connected to Chinese history and folklore. Even Mantis has significance in Chinese culture through having them as pets (usually for game fighting) and through Wushu martial art styles.

Tengu, Itachi, Tanuki and Kappa have no relevance to Chinese history or myth. Furthermore, they have no relevance being in the Chinese inspired locales such as the Kun-lai Mountains, which are directly inspired by Kun-lun. The only exception has been the 9-tailed Fox.

Who said we've explored the entirety of Pandaria?
1. The island could be too small to carry an entire expansion.
2. The island doesn't, necessarily, house all of the creatures in my concept.

Why have it on Pandaria at all?

Honest question, why can't this all be housed in a completely new Japanese inspired setting?

Yes, i know that.
Do these mountains contain a shado pan-like organization in mythology? A Monk training grounds, perhaps? If not, then they're just mountains with a refernce for a name that can be used for anything else.

If you're asking that question, it tells me you know nothing about the Kunlun Mountains and their significance in Chinese mythology.
In popular Chinese myths and stories Kunlun mountain is a place where many types of gods live. In many Wuxia novels, Kunlun is the setting where mortals go to train to become immortals, and it is the training ground for some of the best swordsmen in the world; mortals who are capable of fighting demons and gods alike. That is where the Shado-pan gain their inspiration from. Wuxia genre is martial arts fantasy, an evolution of folklore and myth. Much like how some of today's Superhero genre evolved, as a form of new age mythology.

Yes, it can.
It is just a mountain range in-game. There's nothing too specific for it that it can't be used for something else.

A mountain range that has mythological significance to Chinese culture, and even today's Chinese pop culture. Kunlun has no signficance in Japanese mythology or a Japanese WoW expansion.

Because this is a japanese expansion, based around the samurai. You want to call that Huli Jing or Juiwei Hu? By all means, call it that. I don't really care as long as the fantasy is conveyed.

You admit it being a Japanese expansion yet you continue to want to have it set in a Chinese setting. Again, all I'm pointing out is the lack of rhyme or reason behind your intents here. Just because Japanese and Chinese culture has overlap, you want Samurai to suddenly appear in Pandaria? It makes no sense.

You're going too far.
Japan and China overlap in many things. Australia and let's say, central america, are far apart.

Overlap does not mean they are compatible and interchangeable.

I think you're overlooking that the reason why other cultures can be present in Pandaria is because they still have connections to Chinese history or myth. Whether it is Jinyu or Mantid or Yaungol, these animals are all significant to Chinese culture.

Racoon Dogs may exist in China, but they are not culturally significant. Just like crows also exist in China, but they are not culturally significant the way that they may be to other cultures, like Norse (Odin) or Native American or Japanese Myth.

You're again thinking Pandaria is chinese only when i already showed you the many cultural inspirations it has.

"Initially, the tengu was not a Japanese yōkai at all. Its origins lie in China, where the word tiangou, written with the same characters (天狗), means “celestial dog.” The creature was a kind of ill-omened comet or meteor, the roar of which as it entered the earth's atmosphere was believed to resemble a dog's bark."

"Raccoon dogs (also known as a 'tanuki' or a Japanese raccoon dog) aren't raccoons – they're members of the canid (dog) family. They're native to the forests of eastern Siberia, northern China, northern Vietnam, Korea and Japan."

But them being fantasy creatures is drawn directly from Japanese mythology. There are no talking racoon dogs in Chinese myth, and would have no place in a Chinese inspired mythical setting. And you're not introducing the Chinese 'celestial dog' into Pandaria, you're intention is to adapt the Japanese mythological Tengu bird people, while admitting blatantly that you want a Japanese expansion.

There is no overlap here, because you're not actually talking about things that exist in Chinese mythology. Even if these creatures exist in real life, you're not just talking about adding Raccoon Dogs as critters, you're literally talking about adapting Tanuki from Japanese myth.

Great. That gives us even more incentive to use Pandaria as a setting for a japanese expansion.
I don't expect fantasy to be historically accurate.

It's not about it being historically accurate. It's really about tackling why you think it's necessary for all this to exist in Pandaria, and Pandaria alone.

Look at it this way - In the entire first page of this thread, everyone has unanimously brought up how they think Japanese themes would be better utilized in a new setting. And your entire rhetoric is 'Well we already have Pandaria so nah'. And when people bring up that Pandaria is very much Chinese themed and not fit for Japanese setting, you start nitpicking examples of other cultures in Pandaria, instead of what you should be doing - reflecting on the fact that no one's down with the idea of having it set in Pandaria.

People have spoken out on it being a poor fit for the setting. All that came well before I even jumped into the conversation. I'm not sure how you can take all of that feedback and turn around to say 'Great, more reason to use Pandaria'. It just reeks of blatant ignorance.

I'm not talking about my made up creatures. I'm talking about the races and places that are native to Pandaria. I use Yaungol and Mogu in my concept, and specifically locations like Townlong Steppes and Kun Lai Mountain. I can't just replicate it to another continent.

Who said Yaungol and Mogu couldn't exist on another Island or Continent? And to be honest, if they existed on other continents, it makes perfect sense to adapt them as subraces that are more specific to the Japanese myths. Like Oni that are descended from ancient Mogu, who inhabit a neighbouring island of Onigashima.

Blizzard even did this for Nazjatar. They created a new Jinyu subrace that inhabits Nazjatar and has conflict with the Naga. That's exactly what the Ankoan are. They're effectively Jinyu with all the Asian themes removed.

Same as Drust on Kul Tiras are effectively Vrykul, adapted to fit the new Celtic setting by being given a Celtic-inspired culture.

That's the reason i didn't make up a solar, lunar and earth deities for the concept and used what was already there - Elune, An'she and the Earth Mother. Do you think they will dedicate an entire new continent to another asian expansion, and a japanese one at that?

You can still adapt it culturally, like how Zandalari worships a moon deity. Do they namedrop Elune? No. It is Luna'lai, who ambiguously could be Elune, but might also not be.

Pandaria even did this by introducing Ra-den instead of using Thorim or Odyn. There's no reason why Anshe has to be the only Sun God in Warcraft.


About the question of whether they would adapt a new Japanese expansion (or even revisiting Pandaria) - No, I do not think this is very likely. Just looking at how they've completely ignored Pandaren and Pandaria lore up to this point says enough. There's literally ZERO famous non-Pandaren Monk characters in the game. Pandarens have completely become an afterthought.

[Skytotem]

I want one Horde and you want another.
I guess that's why there are so many versions of the Horde.

The Horde you want is impossible, you can't have honor and also keep slaves.

That's why Garrosh and Sylvanas failed and were miserable stories. Stupid evil playable factions aren't sustainable.