[Concept] World of Warcraft: Path of Honor

[username993720]

What makes for a great antagonist is completely different from what makes a great protagonist. Garrosh was great precisely because he clashed with the identity of the current Horde. And the Horde rejected him, rose up, and overthrew him. The true, honorable, Horde is what remained, and it took extremely forced, out-of-character writing for them to go along with Sylvanas's war crimes after that. But even that ended with the true Horde turning against her and returning, albeit with a completely failed attempt to build up to it.

No, actually.
What made Garrosh great was that he embodied what an Orc is: angry, aggressive and burly. The Mag'har followed his traits.

Sylvanas wasn't as well executed because she was never fit for the role of the Warchief. She isn't an Orc. What was great about her prior was her bitterness, her contempt for the living and her treacherous nature (caring for her people the most, while appearing like she cared about the Horde - as a means to secure her people).

And Thrall is mainly uninteresting now because the writers chose to separate him from his Horde- our Horde, and give him really bad personal arcs instead.

Conquest is decisively not what the Orcs were without demon blood until WoD. They were originally a collection of tribal cultures, peacefully coexisting with both each other and the Draenei. Only the Frostwolves and Rulkan's Shadowmoon felt true to the original depiction in WoD, and like BFA, the rest is so out of character that it really only makes sense if that was another major difference between the timelines.

And make no mistake, I am arguing for Orcs to be Orcs here. They should not be defined by the time they were enslaved by demons, especially when their actual tribal culture is far more interesting and just as distinct from the Alliance.

Yes, they told us Orcs were a peaceful, shamanistic race before their corruption. WoD showed us otherwise - that they have always been that way. Unintentionally, they were referring to the Frostwolves only, who are indeed the least savage of the Orcs. What you are looking for is a Frostwolf Horde, which makes sense since Thrall is a Frostwolf.

They were always playable before Warcraft 3 fleshed them out, and making them an actual culture with their own merits was a massive improvement over the generic evil monster army they were prior to that. And were a new thing that subverted Orc culture, they were very far from their true identity. Shamans are the core of Orc culture.

Shamans are not unique to Orc culture. Tauren have shamans. Trolls have shamans. What was unique about Orc culture is that they were led by Warlocks, a class otherwise destined to the fringes of society. Almost no other culture had that.

It absolutely does not fit the Orcs. As has been explained many times over, the Orcs were literally enslaved twice over (first by the Legion and then by the Alliance (but really mostly Lordaeron)). The current Horde was founded on Thrall's revolution to liberate the Orcs. Freedom is one of their strongest ideals. For them to live through slavery, acknowledge it as the great evil it universally is, only to do it themselves when they're free from demonic influence and trying to properly coexist with the other races (particularly when it was clearly not part of their culture on Draenor) would be outright absurd.

And while many things could be seen as good or evil to different cultures, slavery is absolutely not one of them. It can be depicted, but any group that does it would unambiguously be a villain- something the Horde as a whole is not.

You are talking about a race that idealizes conquest.
"We will never be slaves!" Might have been stated by Grommash, but he also declared "but, we will be conquerers".

Even Durotan, who is a Frostwolf, whose ideals you keep bringing up as the Horde as a whole, stated how for Orcs, war is everything:


You can't really expect a warring bunch to have morals.

Goblins, literally, have a slave Hobgoblin as a racial. Would you consider them evil?


I wouldn't mind this version of the Horde:

And that is something that simply does not fit. Blademasters are completely Orcish at the core, having it come from another culture and not heavily include their existing premise would fundamentally change it into something less interesting. Frankly, I think it would fit far better in a Kalimdor revamp, especially given how much has been going on there (between the new Draenei city, the Orcs restoring life to Durotar, and the Night Elves reclaiming their homes).

The Blademaster is a samurai.
"Culturally, the jinyu share many elements with Japanese cultural themes, such as Satay Byu's being a "Jinja" (ninja) and various samurai motifs."

"Orcs are largely based upon Balkan and West Asian (particularly Turkish) mythologies."

Yes, as I mentioned, little remains of the Burning Blade right now aside from a few assorted Warlocks and Blademasters and Lantresor wants to let them die out. But that choice isn't only his to make- if Samuro's HotS bio is canon, then he's out there determined to redeem the Burning Blade, rather than letting them end in dishonor. I stand by saying that the most interesting premise to introduce Blademasters is to have him rebuild the clan from scratch, inviting anyone who wants to be a Blademaster to join. I've even said that it could lead to conflict with Lantresor based on the very quote you referenced.

I'm all for it.
That's why i included him in my concept.

You gave the Pandaren a completely different culture, gave the other existing races a token presence, and filled it with so many new things that it doesn't remotely feel like the same place anymore.

What? I didn't give the Pandaren any culture. They barely feature in my concept.

A token presence? The Yaungol and Mogu have their own places and stories. Jinyu are responsible for teaching the Blademaster class. It makes sense for Pandaren to take a backseat because it's not about them.

As for the new stuff, that's the point of the revamp. It uses older stuff but also introduces new ones.

Goblins and Undead are the only races it makes any sense for, but it clashes so horribly with the Horde's identity as a whole that, if it still existed at all, it should have been a major source of internal conflict. It was literally founded off of the Orcs' escape from slavery and holds freedom as one of their greatest ideals.

Let me ask you: do Ogres and Mogu not fit the Horde aesthetic?

The freedom you're talking about is their will to live free from persecution, as "monsters", not merely slavery.

The difference is questing and world building is built around various sentient races that we encounter, not around the beasts that inhabit the lands.

Your intention is not to just add weasels and foxes to Pandaria, your intention is to add new sentient races and world build off of that. But Pandaria is simply not a good fit for your intent to include more Japanese myth to the world.

Bestiary is definitely also part of the worldbuilding.

Weird, because they mesh well with my Pandaria concept. Otherwise, this wouldn't have worked.

Because all of these have connections to Chinese history and folklore.

Mongols are tied to Chinese history. Mogu aren't actual Oni, and their designs are actually built off Chinese styled Stone Lions while their culture is built off of the Mongolian rulers of the Yuan Dynasty. Jinyu are based on Chinese merfolk and Chinese Goldfish, even if their architecture and look may be inspired by other sources as well. The name Jinyu literally means Goldfish, and goldfish are very important to Chinese culture as well. They signify wealth and fortune. It's all connected to Chinese history and folklore. Even Mantis has significance in Chinese culture through having them as pets (usually for game fighting) and through Wushu martial art styles.

Japanese also have a connection to the chinese. Most of their mythological creatures are based off of chinese buddhism.

Tengu, Itachi, Tanuki and Kappa have no relevance to Chinese history or myth. Furthermore, they have no relevance being in the Chinese inspired locales such as the Kun-lai Mountains, which are directly inspired by Kun-lun. The only exception has been the 9-tailed Fox.

Tengu: "Tengu (/ˈtɛŋɡuː/ TENG-goo; Japanese: 天狗, pronounced [teŋɡɯ], lit. 'Heavenly Dog') are a type of legendary creature found in Shinto belief."
"The tiangou (Chinese: 天狗; pinyin: tiāngǒu; Wade–Giles: t'ien1-kou3; lit. 'Heavenly Dog') is a legendary creature from China.

Tanuki: "The Chinese character "狸", pronounced lí in modern Mandarin, was originally a collective name for medium-sized mammals resembling cats in China, with the leopard cat as its nucleus. When this character was brought to Japan, it could not be suitably applied to any animals. Japanese intellectuals used the character to signify tanuki, stray cats, wild boars, Japanese badger, weasels, and Japanese giant flying squirrels. However, since Japanese tanuki do not have the fearsome image that the leopard cats of China do, unlike in China, their image are of a more humorous kind of monster."

Kappa: "Similar folklore can be found in Asia and Europe. Like the Japanese description of the beast, in Chinese and in Scandinavian lore this beast is infamous for kidnapping and drowning people as well as horses."

Why have it on Pandaria at all?

Honest question, why can't this all be housed in a completely new Japanese inspired setting?

Because:
1. Pandaria houses many asian architecture, landscapes and creatures.
2. I used some of them in my concept. I can't just erase them or copy them to another location.

If you're asking that question, it tells me you know nothing about the Kunlun Mountains and their significance in Chinese mythology.
In popular Chinese myths and stories Kunlun mountain is a place where many types of gods live. In many Wuxia novels, Kunlun is the setting where mortals go to train to become immortals, and it is the training ground for some of the best swordsmen in the world; mortals who are capable of fighting demons and gods alike. That is where the Shado-pan gain their inspiration from. Wuxia genre is martial arts fantasy, an evolution of folklore and myth. Much like how some of today's Superhero genre evolved, as a form of new age mythology.

Well, then it makes sense for the Peak of Serenity to be there. Nothing about it prohibits the existence of the Tengu, though.

A mountain range that has mythological significance to Chinese culture, and even today's Chinese pop culture. Kunlun has no signficance in Japanese mythology or a Japanese WoW expansion.

But, japan does have snowy mountains. The reason it is perfect for my tengu is: "Yamabushi (山伏, one who prostrates oneself on the mountain) are Japanese mountain ascetic hermits."

You admit it being a Japanese expansion yet you continue to want to have it set in a Chinese setting. Again, all I'm pointing out is the lack of rhyme or reason behind your intents here. Just because Japanese and Chinese culture has overlap, you want Samurai to suddenly appear in Pandaria? It makes no sense.

"The philosophies of Confucianism,[56] Buddhism and Zen, and to a lesser extent Shinto, influenced the samurai culture. Zen meditation became an important teaching because it offered a process to calm one's mind. The Buddhist concept of reincarnation and rebirth led samurai to abandon torture and needless killing, while some samurai even gave up violence altogether and became Buddhist monks after coming to believe that their killings were fruitless. Some were killed as they came to terms with these conclusions in the battlefield. The most defining role that Confucianism played in samurai philosophy was to stress the importance of the lord-retainer relationship—the loyalty that a samurai was required to show his lord."

Overlap does not mean they are compatible and interchangeable.

I think you're overlooking that the reason why other cultures can be present in Pandaria is because they still have connections to Chinese history or myth. Whether it is Jinyu or Mantid or Yaungol, these animals are all significant to Chinese culture.

Racoon Dogs may exist in China, but they are not culturally significant. Just like crows also exist in China, but they are not culturally significant the way that they may be to other cultures, like Norse (Odin) or Native American or Japanese Myth.

Listen, i mostly focused on japanese myth and history for the introduction of the Blademaster class. If you want to keep it predominantly chinese, i'm okay with that. Just add more chinese elements to my concept. Doesn't mean japanese traits can't exist in the background.

But them being fantasy creatures is drawn directly from Japanese mythology. There are no talking racoon dogs in Chinese myth, and would have no place in a Chinese inspired mythical setting. And you're not introducing the Chinese 'celestial dog' into Pandaria, you're intention is to adapt the Japanese mythological Tengu bird people, while admitting blatantly that you want a Japanese expansion.

There is no overlap here, because you're not actually talking about things that exist in Chinese mythology. Even if these creatures exist in real life, you're not just talking about adding Raccoon Dogs as critters, you're literally talking about adapting Tanuki from Japanese myth.

Would that be so wrong?
What, Pandaria can't share its land with other themes but its own? Much like how Northrend will give way to focus on the Titans instead of the Scourge, Pandaria can let japanese themes take place within its borders.

It's not about it being historically accurate. It's really about tackling why you think it's necessary for all this to exist in Pandaria, and Pandaria alone.

Look at it this way - In the entire first page of this thread, everyone has unanimously brought up how they think Japanese themes would be better utilized in a new setting. And your entire rhetoric is 'Well we already have Pandaria so nah'. And when people bring up that Pandaria is very much Chinese themed and not fit for Japanese setting, you start nitpicking examples of other cultures in Pandaria, instead of what you should be doing - reflecting on the fact that no one's down with the idea of having it set in Pandaria.

People have spoken out on it being a poor fit for the setting. All that came well before I even jumped into the conversation. I'm not sure how you can take all of that feedback and turn around to say 'Great, more reason to use Pandaria'. It just reeks of blatant ignorance.

It comes from cultural sensitivity, which was given rise only recently.

The reason i chose Pandaria is:
1. I'm an ardent believer WoW should use existing lore places instead of making them up like Khaz Algar.
2. I thought about which locations could house a Blademaster expansion: Draenor? No. It has barely any japanese influences. Night elven lands? Their inspirations might be Shinto, but they mostly have enchanted forests. What place has asiatic themes in WoW? Pandaria. But, we already went there. Then, i saw how they're going to revamp Quel'thalas and Northrend in the Worldsoul Saga, and i thought to myself: "right, so now Pandaria can be used again."

Who said Yaungol and Mogu couldn't exist on another Island or Continent? And to be honest, if they existed on other continents, it makes perfect sense to adapt them as subraces that are more specific to the Japanese myths. Like Oni that are descended from ancient Mogu, who inhabit a neighbouring island of Onigashima.

I'm using the serpent spine wall. The power of the thunder king. Y'shaarj. Kunlai mountains. Characters like the August Celestials, Garrosh, Shaohao, Ra-Den, Shen-zin Su, Liu Lang, Maste Cheng.

Blizzard even did this for Nazjatar. They created a new Jinyu subrace that inhabits Nazjatar and has conflict with the Naga. That's exactly what the Ankoan are. They're effectively Jinyu with all the Asian themes removed.

What are you talking about? The Ankoan are heavily japanese (samurai)

Same as Drust on Kul Tiras are effectively Vrykul, adapted to fit the new Celtic setting by being given a Celtic-inspired culture.

That's why i have the Umishi, who are Mogu with deer features.

You can still adapt it culturally, like how Zandalari worships a moon deity. Do they namedrop Elune? No. It is Luna'lai, who ambiguously could be Elune, but might also not be.

Pandaria even did this by introducing Ra-den instead of using Thorim or Odyn. There's no reason why Anshe has to be the only Sun God in Warcraft.

Unlike gods, Azeroth has one moon and sun.

About the question of whether they would adapt a new Japanese expansion (or even revisiting Pandaria) - No, I do not think this is very likely. Just looking at how they've completely ignored Pandaren and Pandaria lore up to this point says enough. There's literally ZERO famous non-Pandaren Monk characters in the game. Pandarens have completely become an afterthought.

So, how do you think Blademasters would be introduced?

The Horde you want is impossible, you can't have honor and also keep slaves.

That's why Garrosh and Sylvanas failed and were miserable stories. Stupid evil playable factions aren't sustainable.

Who said i want an honorable Horde?
Yes, Frostwolves, Bloodhooves and Sindorei could be honorable, but that doesn't mean it has to extend to the rest of the Horde.

Garrosh was far from being a miserable failure. He was one of the best characters WoW had to offer. Now the Horde is comprised of boring, charismatic-less characters.

[Triceron]

Bestiary is definitely also part of the worldbuilding.

Weird, because they mesh well with my Pandaria concept. Otherwise, this wouldn't have worked.

I'm pretty sure most people here have commented that it doesn't fit Pandaria, not that it doesn't fit Warcraft.

Japanese also have a connection to the chinese. Most of their mythological creatures are based off of chinese buddhism.

Yes, and I've commented on this before. The ones you've mentioned in your concept aside from the 9-tails fox aren't actually in Chinese mythology, whether buddhist or daoist.

Tengu: "Tengu (/ˈtɛŋɡuː/ TENG-goo; Japanese: 天狗, pronounced [teŋɡɯ], lit. 'Heavenly Dog') are a type of legendary creature found in Shinto belief."
"The tiangou (Chinese: 天狗; pinyin: tiāngǒu; Wade–Giles: t'ien1-kou3; lit. 'Heavenly Dog') is a legendary creature from China.

Except you're not adapting any type of celestial dog creature. You're adapting the Japanese inspired Karasu Tengu.

Tanuki: "The Chinese character "狸", pronounced lí in modern Mandarin, was originally a collective name for medium-sized mammals resembling cats in China, with the leopard cat as its nucleus. When this character was brought to Japan, it could not be suitably applied to any animals. Japanese intellectuals used the character to signify tanuki, stray cats, wild boars, Japanese badger, weasels, and Japanese giant flying squirrels. However, since Japanese tanuki do not have the fearsome image that the leopard cats of China do, unlike in China, their image are of a more humorous kind of monster."

They are real creatures, but the folklore version you're talking about is specifically Japanese. It doesn't exist in Chinese mythology in the same capacity. There is no Chinese folklore surrounding it.

Kappa: "Similar folklore can be found in Asia and Europe. Like the Japanese description of the beast, in Chinese and in Scandinavian lore this beast is infamous for kidnapping and drowning people as well as horses."

Yes, similar folklore, but not actually Kappa. As I already stated earlier, Chinese Merfolk exist, and it is already represented by the Jinyu. If you want to create a separate Murloc-inspired merfolk creature, that's fine too. But the Kappa with the water-in-its-head, and the creature's name itself, are Japanese. If you want to adapt it to Pandaria, it'd be more appropriate to use a Chinese derived name and inspiration

https://mythus.fandom.com/wiki/User_...hapter_Aquatic

Creatures like a Lingyu or a Bangyu, adapted to Warcraft and maybe given a Murloc ancestry.

Because:
1. Pandaria houses many asian architecture, landscapes and creatures.
2. I used some of them in my concept. I can't just erase them or copy them to another location.

'I have an idea that people don't seem to particularly like, but changing it is inconvenient so I'll keep the bad ideas'

Not really a good excuse here.
Let's be clear on your argument - You aren't compelled to feature Pandaria in a Japanese Expansion. You are looking for a setting to usher in Blademasters. You're choosing Pandaria because you don't like the idea of creating something new, and secondly because you've already started putting ideas on paper and it would inconvenience you to change it all up in a new setting. Yet it's still clear that you're not actually married to the idea of having it set in Pandaria. You just don't want to bother changing it.

I'm not honestly not sure why you're pushing back so hard on keeping an idea that no one favours, and actively points out as the weakest part of the whole Expansion concept. You even acknowledge that you're simply looking for a setting that makes sense to usher in Blademasters. I'm not sure why you're dead set on having Pandaria be the only place where this could ever happen.

Would that be so wrong?
What, Pandaria can't share its land with other themes but its own? Much like how Northrend will give way to focus on the Titans instead of the Scourge, Pandaria can let japanese themes take place within its borders.

Northrend isn't a culturally specific setting. Pandaria is intentionally a Chinese-centric setting. Subcultures may exist, but it doesn't make sense to prop up a single subculture as the focus of the expansion in a setting that is clearly not for the same theme.

The reason i chose Pandaria is:
1. I'm an ardent believer WoW should use existing lore places instead of making them up like Khaz Algar.
2. I thought about which locations could house a Blademaster expansion: Draenor? No. It has barely any japanese influences. Night elven lands? Their inspirations might be Shinto, but they mostly have enchanted forests. What place has asiatic themes in WoW? Pandaria. But, we already went there. Then, i saw how they're going to revamp Quel'thalas and Northrend in the Worldsoul Saga, and i thought to myself: "right, so now Pandaria can be used again."

1. Poor reasoning. Your intention is to explore a new culture that we have not seen in WoW before. If you want a Japanese expansion and Japanese culture does not formally exist yet, then there's no reason to explore it in an existing zone that already has a very specific established cultural setting.

Think of it this way - If you wanted to make an Australia-inspired expansion with new creatures and races that are inspired by Australian fauna, where would you set it? In a new Australia-themed zone? Or would you shoehorn Australian themes into an existing location?

2. You can literally create a new set of islands off the coast of Pandaria, tied with historic connections to Pandaria, and have many of the races spill into the new zone. Blizzard does this all the time, just like my example of Drust in Kul Tiras.

I'm using the serpent spine wall. The power of the thunder king. Y'shaarj. Kunlai mountains. Characters like the August Celestials, Garrosh, Shaohao, Ra-Den, Shen-zin Su, Liu Lang, Maste Cheng.

Why? If your intention is a Japanese themed expansion, why are you basing it on Kunlai, Shaohao, Shen-zin, Liu Lang and Master Cheng?

You could easily create new characters inspired by Japanese mythological heroes very easily instead. It's very easy to swap. Swap out Kun-lai for Mt. Horai, swap out Shaohao with Emperor Jinmu, swap out Master Cheng for Benkei, swap out Shen-zin Su for a sibling turtle, Minogame (or if you want to push the pop culture references, Gamera).

That's why i have the Umishi, who are Mogu with deer features.

Which is fine if you introduce them in a new biome. Umishi is a Japanese word, and it doesn't make sense for that naming scheme to suddenly appear within Pandaria. Have you not realized that every fictional race in Pandaria has a Chinese rooted naming convention?

Unlike gods, Azeroth has one moon and sun.

Yet different cultures can give different names to them. And Azeroth has TWO moons. The Pale Lady and the Blue Child.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Moon

The planet of Azeroth has two moons.[1][2][3][4] Various cultures may have different names for them, but usually they play on a mother-and-child theme, as the white moon is much larger than the blue one.

So, how do you think Blademasters would be introduced?

In a Japanese themed setting that isn't Pandaria, for one. Like you said, even Ankoan are Samurai inspired. Yet Ankoan aren't in Pandaria, it is the Jinyu who live there, a distant relative that is specifically molded to fit the Chinese setting, including the name Jinyu which is a Chinese derived name. When it came to introducing a specifically Japanese-inspired race into the game, Blizzard created a new one for a new setting; the Ankoan for Nazjatar.

Why not visit a new location where Blademasters actually gather, a place we haven't explored yet? There's no reason why Blademasters of all sorts would suddenly be gathering in Pandaria. It would make just as little sense if they started gathering in Draenor, like you said.

[username993720]

I'm pretty sure most people here have commented that it doesn't fit Pandaria, not that it doesn't fit Warcraft.

You do realize half of my concept is Pandaria based, right?

Yes, and I've commented on this before. The ones you've mentioned in your concept aside from the 9-tails fox aren't actually in Chinese mythology, whether buddhist or daoist.

Well, i've showed you otherwise.

Don't you feel a little bit over priviledged? Like, a whole continent and expansion dedicated to just your culture and nothing else is allowed in. Where else in WoW did anyone get this treatment?

Except you're not adapting any type of celestial dog creature. You're adapting the Japanese inspired Karasu Tengu.

Okay, but the roots is the heavenly dog.
Many creatures in WoW are altered from their mythological depictions.

They are real creatures, but the folklore version you're talking about is specifically Japanese. It doesn't exist in Chinese mythology in the same capacity. There is no Chinese folklore surrounding it.

So, what would be so wrong about it?
Do panda people exist in chinese myth? Yak-people? Lion-dog people? All of these are game inventions.

Yes, similar folklore, but not actually Kappa. As I already stated earlier, Chinese Merfolk exist, and it is already represented by the Jinyu. If you want to create a separate Murloc-inspired merfolk creature, that's fine too. But the Kappa with the water-in-its-head, and the creature's name itself, are Japanese. If you want to adapt it to Pandaria, it'd be more appropriate to use a Chinese derived name and inspiration

As i've said already, call it whatever you want.
I don't care if it's japanese or chinese, as long as it fits the setting.

'I have an idea that people don't seem to particularly like, but changing it is inconvenient so I'll keep the bad ideas'

Not really a good excuse here.
Let's be clear on your argument - You aren't compelled to feature Pandaria in a Japanese Expansion. You are looking for a setting to usher in Blademasters. You're choosing Pandaria because you don't like the idea of creating something new, and secondly because you've already started putting ideas on paper and it would inconvenience you to change it all up in a new setting. Yet it's still clear that you're not actually married to the idea of having it set in Pandaria. You just don't want to bother changing it.

I'm not honestly not sure why you're pushing back so hard on keeping an idea that no one favours, and actively points out as the weakest part of the whole Expansion concept. You even acknowledge that you're simply looking for a setting that makes sense to usher in Blademasters. I'm not sure why you're dead set on having Pandaria be the only place where this could ever happen.

You want to change it so badly? Go ahead and create your own concept.
For me, Pandaria worked quite well.

Northrend isn't a culturally specific setting. Pandaria is intentionally a Chinese-centric setting. Subcultures may exist, but it doesn't make sense to prop up a single subculture as the focus of the expansion in a setting that is clearly not for the same theme.

Northrend is very scandinavian.

1. Poor reasoning. Your intention is to explore a new culture that we have not seen in WoW before. If you want a Japanese expansion and Japanese culture does not formally exist yet, then there's no reason to explore it in an existing zone that already has a very specific established cultural setting.

Think of it this way - If you wanted to make an Australia-inspired expansion with new creatures and races that are inspired by Australian fauna, where would you set it? In a new Australia-themed zone? Or would you shoehorn Australian themes into an existing location?

There is no japanese land in WoW lore. The closest thing are kaldorei lands, which didn't quite fit the concept.

If i had some aboriginal sets in WoW, i would definitely consider revamping those zones for an expansion.
Actually, when i think about it, my Emerald Dream concept has aboriginal themes, since they have a connection to dreams.

2. You can literally create a new set of islands off the coast of Pandaria, tied with historic connections to Pandaria, and have many of the races spill into the new zone. Blizzard does this all the time, just like my example of Drust in Kul Tiras.

It is tempting, but there are still a lot of Pandaria stuff i can't just transport over to a new land.

Why? If your intention is a Japanese themed expansion, why are you basing it on Kunlai, Shaohao, Shen-zin, Liu Lang and Master Cheng?

You could easily create new characters inspired by Japanese mythological heroes very easily instead. It's very easy to swap. Swap out Kun-lai for Mt. Horai, swap out Shaohao with Emperor Jinmu, swap out Master Cheng for Benkei, swap out Shen-zin Su for a sibling turtle, Minogame (or if you want to push the pop culture references, Gamera).

Simple.
We already have similar stuff in WoW. So, there's no need to pack WoW with even more new things. People love established stuff, so it's easier to convert it.

Which is fine if you introduce them in a new biome. Umishi is a Japanese word, and it doesn't make sense for that naming scheme to suddenly appear within Pandaria. Have you not realized that every fictional race in Pandaria has a Chinese rooted naming convention?

Yes, i've noticed it.
Want to change it to a chinese name? Go ahead. Fine by me.

Yet different cultures can give different names to them. And Azeroth has TWO moons. The Pale Lady and the Blue Child.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Moon

The planet of Azeroth has two moons.[1][2][3][4] Various cultures may have different names for them, but usually they play on a mother-and-child theme, as the white moon is much larger than the blue one.

Again, i'm not dead set on the names. Call them whatever.
It makes sense to use Elune since the Night elves are very japanese-oriented.

In a Japanese themed setting that isn't Pandaria, for one. Like you said, even Ankoan are Samurai inspired. Yet Ankoan aren't in Pandaria, it is the Jinyu who live there, a distant relative that is specifically molded to fit the Chinese setting, including the name Jinyu which is a Chinese derived name. When it came to introducing a specifically Japanese-inspired race into the game, Blizzard created a new one for a new setting; the Ankoan for Nazjatar.

Why not visit a new location where Blademasters actually gather, a place we haven't explored yet? There's no reason why Blademasters of all sorts would suddenly be gathering in Pandaria. It would make just as little sense if they started gathering in Draenor, like you said.

I would have used Ankoan if they weren't deep-sea creatures.
It makes a lot of sense to use Pandaria, actually, because:
1. The martial arts lend very well to the samurai fantasy.
2. The Jinyu already have japanese and samurai themes, so using them makes sense.

[Triceron]

You do realize half of my concept is Pandaria based, right?

I have no problem with that.

It's the 'Japanese expansion' and the fact you're only using Pandaria as a setting to introduce Blademasters that makes your reasoning to use Pandaria quite shallow.

Don't you feel a little bit over priviledged? Like, a whole continent and expansion dedicated to just your culture and nothing else is allowed in. Where else in WoW did anyone get this treatment?

All I'm doing is pointing out the obvious here.

Look at the first page again. Read through the comments. Has a single person commended you on using Pandaria as a setting for your Japanese themed expansion? It has nothing to do with me feeling priveledged. i'm literally pointing at something that others have noted on well before I even came to the thread.

It's on you to open your eyes and take a good look at what's being said.

I'm not sure how you can look at every bit of negative feedback and think you have a good idea on your hands here. It's literally unanimous.

Okay, but the roots is the heavenly dog.

Then change it to a heavenly dog race.

Would you be willing to?

There is no japanese land in WoW lore. The closest thing are kaldorei lands, which didn't quite fit the concept.

Why are you so afraid of creating one? Why are you so afraid of having a new setting exist? I'm not sure why your convictions are so rigid when it comes to exploring an entirely new culture that doesn't exist yet.

You are willing to create the creatures and create new cultures, but not a new setting for them to live in? Why? This didn't stop you imaging your own version of Dragon Isles when it merely existed as a name. If I gave you the name Ryuken Isles, you're telling me you couldn't come up with an entirely new set of Japanese inspired zones for it?

People love established stuff, so it's easier to convert it.

The entire first page of this thread tells me otherwise.

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Cool ideas but Japanese theme deserves its own expansion and not be tacked on to MoP
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I will echo the sentiment that a japanese-themed land could be in an entirely new place rather than in a Pandaria revamp
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Its a fair point. Japan and China are very different. There is absolutely room in the game for a new landmass with Japanese influence.
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If you want a Japanese-themed land, why not go with a deep cut and use that theme for Hiji? It's a complete blank slate, just a small island in the South Seas on really old maps. I definitely don't agree with completely changing Pandaria's culture.
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Pandaria is primarily based on traditional Chinese culture. Although Japan preserved a lot of that, a lot of Pandaria is based upon Chinese culture with Kun Lai being essentially Nepal. There’s some little influences from a lot of Asian countries generally, but Japanese there is not.



You've been so preoccupied with explaining your reasonings for your concept that I don't think you see the big picture here - people don't actually like you exploiting established material for your new expansion ideas.

Again, all quotes above are taken from other people. Maybe you just need to see it all in one page and read it altogether to really understand what they truly think.

[username993720]

I have no problem with that.

It's the 'Japanese expansion' and the fact you're only using Pandaria as a setting to introduce Blademasters that makes your reasoning to use Pandaria quite shallow.

So, how do you expect me to use Pandaria but not use Pandaria at the same time?

All I'm doing is pointing out the obvious here.

Look at the first page again. Read through the comments. Has a single person commended you on using Pandaria as a setting for your Japanese themed expansion? It has nothing to do with me feeling priveledged. i'm literally pointing at something that others have noted on well before I even came to the thread.

It's on you to open your eyes and take a good look at what's being said.

I'm not sure how you can look at every bit of negative feedback and think you have a good idea on your hands here. It's literally unanimous.

It took a lot of time to read through all of Japan's myths and histories to make this concept. I'm not just gonna throw it all away because people are offended.

Then change it to a heavenly dog race.

Would you be willing to?

Nah, it would completely change the fantasy.

I'll tell you what. I'm willing to go over my concept and revise some things. But, you'd need to help me out. Collect all of the things you think are wrong and bring a solution for me to use, okay?

[Triceron]

So, how do you expect me to use Pandaria but not use Pandaria at the same time?

By dividing your content up and adding all Japanese elements to a separate area, like as a sister zone (like Zandalar is to Kul Tiras). Depending on the order of your story, you could even have the Japanese inspired zone be introduced in x.1 patch, like a Nazjatar or Timeless Isle.

We've had dual zones introduced before and work. You could even have a direct rivalry introduced between the zones and cultures, like PVP between Pandaria and the Japanese zone. And you can still have some Pandaria races have settlements in that new zone, to show there is connection, and to show how various races react to Pandaria itself. Do they see them as invaders? Do they welcome them and their cultures? Plenty of stuff to explore and play on, without merely having them all native to Pandaria.

It took a lot of time to read through all of Japan's myths and histories to make this concept. I'm not just gonna throw it all away because people are offended.

I didn't say throw it away. I said create a new zone for it, which literally everyone has suggested.

And I would suggest you read my reply above, because I updated to show you what people have been saying about your setting. You should look at the big picture instead of arguing everyone's talking points individually. Everyone is saying the same thing about the setting.

I've even given you PLENTY of examples of how to swap out characters and locations for a Japanese setting. If you took the time and effort you're putting into arguing against me into brainstorming, you'd already have a new setting. I've literally helped you with ideas for new characters and location names, and instead of building off it you just want to argue more instead. I mean, if you want we can just leave it as a bad idea that no one thinks makes sense, and I'll leave the thread, if that's really your goal here. I don't have to be here.


The whole idea of Japanese expansion in a revamped Pandaria is actually two separate concepts. The revamped Pandaria elements should remain in Pandaria, the Japanese inspired elements should be allocated to a new zone. Merging the two is what's causing the conflict of interest.

[username993720]

The whole idea of Japanese expansion in a revamped Pandaria is actually two separate concepts. The revamped Pandaria elements should remain in Pandaria, the Japanese inspired elements should be allocated to a new zone. Merging the two is what's causing the conflict of interest.

I don't think they are separateable.
I've combined them together, not divided them between chinese and japanese themes.

It could, literally, be a 'what if?' scenario like Warlord of Draenor. What if the Orcs didn't drink the demon blood. What if they used war tech instead? In the same manner, what if Pandaria was japanese-centered instead of chinese. This could be an interesting take.

[MCMLXXXII]

Think it would work better on an island chain next to Pandaria.

[Triceron]

I don't think they are separateable.
I've combined them together, not divided them between chinese and japanese themes.

It could, literally, be a 'what if?' scenario like Warlord of Draenor. What if the Orcs didn't drink the demon blood. What if they used war tech instead? In the same manner, what if Pandaria was japanese-centered instead of chinese. This could be an interesting take.

Yeah, and the what if would be better separated.

But you do you, its your idea.

[username993720]

Yeah, and the what if would be better separated.

But you do you, its your idea.

You can't separate something that is intertwined.
It's not a bad idea either. It just strikes a nerve.