In your opinion, why is PvP decreasing in popularity

[Whisker5402]

I took advantage of the brawl event to farm some marks to unlock some old sets, since I don't really enjoy pvp.

I started thinking about how PvP is becoming more and more niche as time goes on. IMHO it's not really a problem with WoW, because I see the same even in other mmos, and I think the main reasons are ouside the game.

People migrated to MOBA first and then Hero shooters for PvP.

People not enjoying tab targeting interactions as before (see point 1)

PvP in MMO not as spectacular/sellable as other genres prevents them from gaining momentum.

Barrier to entry (both skill and gear) is an obstacle for getting new players.

Cost is also a significant barrier when people can consider f2p pvp games.

PvP in MMO is often condidered as a secondary priority compared to PvE, and is not balanced around it.

Huge lulls of content since there are no game modes, new classes, characters etc. to create hype. Seasons/patches can also be a downside if you liked the old tier set bonus more than the new tier set bonus.

Concerning point 7, rerolling it's much harder when you don't enjoy your class anymore.

Off the top of my head those are the main reasons, but I'm interested in reading other takes

[Nzx]

Because MMO PvP is either instant death zerg fest or too long to die cooldown trading. It's a shit genre for PvP and so all of the turbo sweats who play exclusively PvP left for the genres that were specifically designed for PvP. It's not 2004 any more where your choices for online PvP games were Counter-Strike and MMOs, there's a million different options now.

[Frogguh]

I used to pvp all the time, but one thing WoD/Ashran taught me was that long gear grinds suck in pvp, so by BfA I had quit pvp entirely. Only way I would go back is if gear was removed entirely beyond stat adjustment, and Blizzard isn't about to do that, for better or worse.

[agentsi]

I think it's a combination of the game never being able to balance itself properly and skill being a major factor. More so than people realize. I've hit Gladiator once, during TBC, and have never been able to do so again as other players just get better and better as time goes on. I usually hit 2100-2300 MMR, before I get burned out because I can't climb anymore, generally being a skill factor, or a balance issue. More often the latter, simply because so many folks go to the meta, and I play the same class all the time.

As Nzx stated, other games give you better options for just pure PvP, and there are even other MMO's that do it a bit better, IMO.

To be honest, I think WoW needs to do whatever they do with the remix version of wow, but do it for PvP. Make the rewards account wide, or something similar, and just have it be on it's own servers with it's own settings separate from PvE so its easier to balance and patch without messing with the normal PvE servers. Allow character copys, etc, or just let everyone make max lvl toons and all the gear equal, you just pick stats you prefer.

[Itisamuh]

Gear, addons, factions, roles, leveling. All of these are probably the biggest turnoffs for me and many others, along with the general whiplash of constant balance issues, and of course the subscription cost.

Gear - Having inherent power differences between players goes directly against the point of competition, and giving more power to the winners just makes it worse for everyone else. Playing game after game only to get no conquest is a terrible feeling. It also makes it feel really bad to take a break because then you fall behind, and catching up is a nightmare. Gear needs to be completely removed from battlegrounds and arena, both rated and unrated.

Addons - Addons have gotten to the point where they nearly play the game for you, and give information people have no business having. To me someone being able to see what cooldowns I have available, or how much time I have left before a full length stun can be applied, is no different than a wall hack in a shooter. In both cases they are gaining information outside of what the game allows by default. Pair this with scripts that let people attack players without targeting them, or sequence things instantly to the point of looking like bots, and it creates yet another disparity that really has nothing to do with skill. I agree with the vocal minority of pros and streamers who think addons and scripts should be deleted from the game.

Factions - Maybe some people still care about factions lorewise, despite how pathetically irrelevant they are, but it hurts the game for anyone doing randoms. It sucks when your faction has long queues, or when it goes through spells where it loses a lot more than it wins, or when it has less healers than the other more often than not. It really sucks when your faction has all of those problems at the same time. Removing them would not only balance out queue times, and make it easier to balance healer numbers on both sides, and let people play with their friends who like different races, but it would also remove the problem of large premades syncing their queues. They could still do it, but half of them might be on the other team. It should be like every other multiplayer game, with one pool of players, and an even chance of being on the red or blue team when you queue. Blitz already does it with no problem, so there is no excuse.

Roles - Healers in particular have gotten so strong over the years that they make way too big of an individual impact. Healers stacking with each other make them nearly impossible to kill, and the days of a lone healer needing protection from a lone damage dealer are long gone. The fact that two zerging armies can clash at the start of a game, and one side wipes while the other loses not a single player, well frankly that should never happen. A single healer being able to tank five players while destroying three vehicles, only to then mosey back to his base while ignoring the enemies should not be possible. But at the same time there is so much pressure put on healers to perform, especially in something like arena where there is only one healer on a team, that few people want to do it, creating ridiculously long queues at times for everyone else. The same thing happens with dungeons and raids, with healers and tanks being required but unattractive to the average player. Sadly there is really no easy fix to this issue, as roles are too ingrained in the game. Healers definitely need toned down though, even if damage and control needs toned down as well to compensate. At the very least there needs to always be the same number of healers on both teams, even if that number is not static, which again would be helped by removing factions.

Leveling - This one is pretty obvious, leveling just gets in the way of trying new classes. In other games you can just swap between roles and characters game by game, or even respawn by respawn in some cases, to try things out and find your niche. Here you have to level up before you can even give something else a shot, nevermind gear grinds and all the other issues. An easy fix here would be to make all battlegrounds and arena happen on a tournament realm, rather than as part of the live servers.

Chances are none of these things will be fixed, and obviously plenty of people will disagree on what the issues even are, but those are my big ones. There are simply too many barriers of entry and too many hassles to deal with compared to other games.

[RobertMugabe]

Skill issues, balancing issues and just general player toxicity.

Somehow people really enjoy lecturing others (despite the same or lower rating) and just flame people even when you are wining. It's just not really a good environment to get started into for a new player or someone who has never PVPed before.

It does get better eventually, but getting there is very tedious and most people just burn out by then.

[Mojo03]

I think the popularity has been kind of the same for like a decade

You don't hear about it as much because they put almost no effort into keeping it fresh

2 new BGs in the last 12 years and a handful of arena maps

It's also actually hard to be good at. You can't be carried by bigger numbers on gear like you can in PVE after you get caught up on pvp gear, which also sucks, especially if you start the season later on. They need to just do away with it, but they won't because it's a good time waster for pvp players, but sucks for the health of the pvp scene

My resto shaman for example has like 40 abilities and I use literally all of them (some very niche)

And there is a deep rabbit hole of pvp addons you probably need to learn at this point, which sucks

Also some of the absolute bigger losers you'll meet in WOW dwell in pvp and just makes you not even want to play

[melzas]

You listed most important reasons, I will add that WoW is mostly played by people 30+ years old and the older people get the less they are interested in pvp and more interested in chill rather than try hard.
And pvp is always try hard.

[WowIsDead64]

PVP = all MMO problems, but squared. It already bad, when you have to rely on other players to make game fun for you. It's even worse, when other players are allowed to ruin your game.

[mbit2]

You fighting UI not players with wow.
wow pvp without addon config is straight up unplayable because you need things like dr timers, hide 50 pet nameplates obscuring vision while also highlighting shaman totem and weak auras that visualize enemy cooldowns because you cant tell without under nameplate & effect spam. (tiny buff under target nameplate is not really visible)
I came back after 2y break and im already reconsidering while fighting with lua errors. Bet many people feel same and quit even faster.

And traditionally pvp in wow died because it was a imbalanced shitshow with pve items giving freewins, pruning lowering skillcap and pay2win racial changes once race swap went to cashshop. Why would you waste your life with this collection of problems when you can have instant fair pvp in any other game? Its a shit deal. Its not even interesting when you are the op class with the oneshot pve item. You get your 2.2k in one week and stop playing...

[Rinnegan2]

entry barrier needs to be 0 (zero) for any competitive PvP game (like WoW Arena, RBG, RBB, Solo).
install game -> press play -> inside the arena (3 clicks from installation to 'in the action', not a single click more).

on the flip side, MMO PvP (world pvp, random battlegrounds) has to be crazy fun, unbalanced, no hidden scaling and the time you've put into your character should matter.

so there you have it. that's what Blizzard's gotta do if they want to earn big money in the future.

[Daedius]

PvP in an RPG where gear is a big factor isn't very appealing to new comers...

Having some DPS with 6+m HP attacking a person with 3-4m hp sure is fun!

[procne]

I remember back in vanilla or TBC I would often join BGs for some fun. I played as mage or druid and was able to contribute somehow to the battle. But around Wotlk, when I tried joining BGs as a resto druid, whenever I entered fight I was immediatelly stunlocked and killed without having a chance to even react.

Obviously it was mostly skill and/or gear issue on my part, but seeing how PvP is almost a separate game - with different talents, abilities scaling and interacting differently in PvP - the effort to learn all of this, PLUS learn all the other classes and specs to be able to properly counter them, just to play this game on a decent level is too much for me for it to be worth it. Add to it that back in TBC game was slower - many spells were 3 sec casts, with not that many instants. Now they are usually 1.5 sec, a lot of instant or off-GCD abilities with haste effects greatly speeding those up... I just can't keep up with the pace.

PVE raids or m+ is already difficult for me with all the buttons I already have (feeling like playing a piano) and things to watch for - and that's static encounters where you know what to expect. I can't imagine playing in encounters with an order of magnitude more unexpected stuff happening.

TL;DR:
PvP has become way too fast and complex for me to play

[glendada]

Thanks for the information!

[Schwert]

They also keep writing the reasons for casual players to be interested in PvP out of the game.

It was originally Horde vs Alliance, and PvP was extremely popular in Vanilla - people had faction pride, and the marketing went really hard on that.
Then they started focusing on arenas and slowly pulled more and more out of the team mentality, to the point that now it doesn't matter at all. And they wonder why people don't do it anymore? The casual stuff is the stepping stone into rated, and they just took the main motivation for it out and shot it.

It's not going to recover.

[Soon-TM]

A Mt. Everest-sized entry barrier, basically. Besides, PvP is way, waaaaay too complex for most folks to really care, especially with how bloated (most) classes/specs have become. Balance being a complete joke doesn't help either.

[Flaks]

They also keep writing the reasons for casual players to be interested in PvP out of the game.

It was originally Horde vs Alliance, and PvP was extremely popular in Vanilla - people had faction pride, and the marketing went really hard on that.
Then they started focusing on arenas and slowly pulled more and more out of the team mentality, to the point that now it doesn't matter at all. And they wonder why people don't do it anymore? The casual stuff is the stepping stone into rated, and they just took the main motivation for it out and shot it.

It's not going to recover.

Faction pride is still a thing and warmode introduction with sparks pvp quests and supply drops have breathed life into world/casual pvp the likes of which we haven't seen since vanilla. It's why BfA is my personal favorite expansion despite it's numerous flaws having played since vanilla.

PvP is less popular right now because the game itself is serving as a barrier to people's playtime between the silly mmr capping to the innumerable annoying to near-game-breaking bugs we've had since pre patch.

Also, hero talents threw another layer of complexity into the DF-introduced talent trees that make it harder for folks to get into the competitive side of things. They'll eventually get it right like they did by DF season 3.

The primary things that need to be addressed to draw people in is making it easier to climb and addressing major bugs/outliers. Don't listen to the elitist rating gate keepers and pvp will see a boom again. DF seasons again being a prime example. Pvp participation was directly correlated to rating inflation.

Making it easier to climb and get the rewards will motivate more people to play. More people playing means lower queue times and it becomes a cycle that just gets more and more people playing more often. Why the devs can't grasp this I just don't understand.

[Cynical Asshole]

1. Removal of faction pride. Faction pride was a huge motivator, you even had so-called "pvp guilds" a long time ago, that were brawling in wpvp and then bantering on the forums. Now? Nobody gives a shit.

2. Introduction of warmode. Similar to the point above, it removed most pvp interaction from the open world by breaking the food chain.
Pve-ers, levelers and grinders -> griefers coming to feed on them -> revengers and vigilantees coming to feed on the griefers. Wpvp happens.
By removing the forced PVP tag, Blizzard essentially removed the first part of the chain. Griefers are starving and dying off, and so do the vigilantees since there are no griefers, as the herbivores just don't turn warmode on.

3. Classes and specs have become increasingly difficult and focus-demanding to play, especially in PVP. While in PVE you can get away with playing badly and you don't even need to use your utility abilities in most cases, in PVP you need to use everything in your spellbook in addition to what extra active abilities you got from PVP talents, and many people just can't handle it. Add to it the fact that WoW has an aging playerbase of people who are +35 yo, and new players are not coming in, and these guys can't do 30 keybinds, 3 debuffs, and 5 cds, while watching what the other bastard is doing, so they just btfo.

4. Toys, buffs, and gimmicks. Wpvp is absolutely PLAGUED by various toys, world buffs and bullshit like queuing for a follower dungeon when you're about to lose a fight, and just disappearing in thin air.
I remember back in WoD, there was a toy feather that made your character shoot up into the sky and then deployed a glider, allowing you to escape any dicey wpvp situations, and Blizzard nerfed that shit so you couldn't do it anymore.
Now? Blizzard don't give one single dead rat's ass about exploits in world pvp, in fact they completely condone and encourage them.
Watch Soulscape using like 20 world buffs and then soloing entire groups. That's not world pvp, that's bullshit.

5. THE GAME IS OLD! People just don't give much of a shit about playing so much anymore, sspecially when considering all the points above. They're mostly playing it because there are no other MMOs that are as good as WoW even in its current state, but then we're just comparing a teeny tiny cow with an old dying nag, which is gonna give the most milk?

[Grinning Serpent]

For retail, it's just simply way too fucking complex. Every class has 2-4 specs, each of which have different abilities that you must memorize. Then each spec has PvP talents to memorize, some of which are shared between specs and others which are exclusive. There are 39 specs across 13 classes, and you need to memorize *ALL* of it before you can even begin to play proactively.

It's the same problem MOBAs have, except they pretty much all have "limited hero" modes you can play (and which are typically mandatory for a little bit if you're new.)

If Blizzard wants to increase PvP participation rates, they *have* to simplify things. I would make organized PvP (BGs and arenas) not have specs at all - classes instead have static toolkits that contain a mixture of abilities and features from each spec, with maybe 4-6 PvP talents to add further customization. Let wPvP continue to be no rules, but for organized PvP, I think they need to take a less is more approach because even trying to get into arenas or RBGs is just asking way too fucking much.

[Schwert]

Faction pride is still a thing and warmode introduction with sparks pvp quests and supply drops have breathed life into world/casual pvp the likes of which we haven't seen since vanilla. It's why BfA is my personal favorite expansion despite it's numerous flaws having played since vanilla.

PvP is less popular right now because the game itself is serving as a barrier to people's playtime between the silly mmr capping to the innumerable annoying to near-game-breaking bugs we've had since pre patch.

Also, hero talents threw another layer of complexity into the DF-introduced talent trees that make it harder for folks to get into the competitive side of things. They'll eventually get it right like they did by DF season 3.

The primary things that need to be addressed to draw people in is making it easier to climb and addressing major bugs/outliers. Don't listen to the elitist rating gate keepers and pvp will see a boom again. DF seasons again being a prime example. Pvp participation was directly correlated to rating inflation.

Making it easier to climb and get the rewards will motivate more people to play. More people playing means lower queue times and it becomes a cycle that just gets more and more people playing more often. Why the devs can't grasp this I just don't understand.

Go mention factions on Twitter or Reddit.
You're not allowed to have faction pride according to the most loud and obnoxious of the playerbase.

They're listening to that garbage.

They're also literally removing factions from battlegrounds in .7, so, pride? Where? What's the point?
wPvP is next.