In your opinion, why is PvP decreasing in popularity

[nvaelz]

m+ combat design, the way immunities/cds work making every matchup feel generic, yes it's really fast pace but WoW used to be cool because it was about start of actions and dead space, now it's just gogogogogo but that's what happens when the game is designed around splashy aoe dmg in m+

also idk what the intention is behind increasing intensity every update, when was game design all about making things go faster all the time, pressing a fireblast on classic is still faster because it's instantly doing more dmg than anything on retail, maybe in classic you'd press flame ward or whatever to counter a fire blast, but in retail u press big button universal shields and its just dumbed down, not saying its easier but it's lamer,

STILL tho TWW is better than DF but its not anywhere near as good as it should be, there should be a better vibe for pvp in general, and i think it's completely tied to PVE combat design and the issue is only that m+ is stupid, pve is all about faster faster and it's all about buttons doing 8x dot applications or whatever, it's always gonna be bad in PVP as long as m+ rules combat design,

but really it's all about taste, I don't really prefer an extensive rotation building up modifiers to do damage,
just as I don't prefer those type of modifiers on gear in a game like Diablo but prefer static stats like +5 strength.

Also numberscaling/spell bloat is really too high, I don't get why there's a boot enchant that provides us with 0.3% higher stamina, it's ridiculous and so far away from anything noticable, but it's like that with alot of things,

also to get back to the topic of intensity, there's a certain point in the structure of pacing where it has the opposite effect and WoW is way over the edge,

Take chess as an example, there's a lack of intensity but there's a depth in a classical game with maybe a day long time duration, but it's perhaps too low intensity and too much contemplation, but then you have bullet with 30 sec total time and it's just a spewy puke of intensity, sure you can argue that 15 sec bullet xd chess has FAR higher skill cap than classical, but is that really interesting? to just smash the keyboard as fast as humanly possible all the time?

there's other levels of interaction with intensity where contemplation and critical thinking is more applicable, and that's where I think WoW is going wrong, and has lost what makes classic great, classic is way more about solid decisions while these solid decisions still exists in the chaotic nature of the retail wow pve rotation etc, it's just diluted and yes it's harder now but it's lost the "thing" i think makes WoW a great game,

No matter how slow the game is, if timing still matters then how constantly intense the game is doesn't make it faster, cuz timing is our internal management of intensity, WoW always had that going for it, it didn't need the new level of intensity that just makes everything about pressing big buttons,

There's an annoyance with WoW now that CDs just trade absolutely for CDs, it's the same stinky design that ruined DF, the example I'm thinking about is how little good PVE rotation means when faced with autobalancing CDs, for example in a 2v3 situation the skill disparity has to be alot more favorable than it should be, the 3 players need to be far inferior to lose, it should be more about skill and less about how big cds just shut down gameplay.

the whole #nochanges thing about classic is total aids aswell, having removed wallclimbing and ruining the honor ranks system isnt' #nochanges, it's removing qualities from the game that weren't really mistakes,

But wallclimbing was a bug? and exploit? What made WoW PVP interesting for the longest time was going between the lines, fearing a rogue out of stealth or whatever, we had to find solutions within simplicity, and that made the game competitive, but now it's all on surface hyperbalanced and controlled to limit our potential and expose us to stupid intensity that portrays itself as complexity but it's just never gonna fly as quality design for a long time, it's just a dumb mistake in the times we live in.

With Blizzard game design philosophy it's like a baker trying to evolve a bread recipe for all eternity, there's bound to be misassumptions about the bread becoming further superior, eventually the recipe will be perfected, and the closer to perfection it would be the more stupid radical changes becomes.

But Blizzard is on this exact line of thinking, not looking into the past success of their own games, but trying to evolve and build upon perfection, in the most stubborn ways possible even when they ruin their own games or don't ever take lessons from past success they still push forward down the vortex of their own imaginary hights(lows)

[exochaft]

But Blizzard is on this exact line of thinking, not looking into the past success of their own games, but trying to evolve and build upon perfection, in the most stubborn ways possible even when they ruin their own games or don't ever take lessons from past success they still push forward down the vortex of their own imaginary hights(lows)

This applies to beyond just PvP but the game as a whole, but Blizz has had a history of forgetting lessons learned and repeating mistakes that had either already had a solution in-game or wouldn't require much effort to fix. IMO, a good portion of this is hubris, single-mindly focusing on certain aspects at the expense of others, dying on hills that should never need defending in the first place, etc. I should not be understated that despite the good things that have come from DF/TWW, it took years and a long string of failures for Blizz to get to a low enough point where they actually addressed many aforementioned issues... or were even willing to admit there were problems. Shadowlands was probably the low point in all of this, where the blue post responses were combative against the players concerning issues with the game, followed by Blizz gaslighting players along the lines of "We found these problems, wish you players noticed them earlier so we could've addressed them earlier!" The people responsible for this mentality are likely still at the company, so one shouldn't be surprised if Blizz slips back into this mentality.

However, one can't ignore company turn-over as a reason for constantly reinventing the wheel, as it's not uncommon when you get new blood that they were never informed of or ignore the lessons learned in the past, repeating them over and over. While fresh blood can provide new perspectives, it can also lead to having to go through the same iterations as were done in the past, requiring more time to learn the lessons again and again and again.

If we're going to point at a more specific game design issue for many of the problems, it's the game being designed and tuned like an esport. In such a game, you HAVE to balance things tightly to where homogenization just becomes a reality. Unfortunately, the vast majority of players have to deal with the aftereffects of esports design, even if they don't play that aspect of the game. Furthermore, it dilutes other aspects of the game in order to maintain this balance, or forces compromises that wouldn't have to exist if the game didn't need to be tuned so tightly. Sometimes, extreme outliers and playstyle/ability diversity that is impossible to balance can lead to players having a lot of fun... but that can't exist in WoW right now.

[HansOlo]

I took advantage of the brawl event to farm some marks to unlock some old sets, since I don't really enjoy pvp.

I started thinking about how PvP is becoming more and more niche as time goes on. IMHO it's not really a problem with WoW, because I see the same even in other mmos, and I think the main reasons are ouside the game.

People migrated to MOBA first and then Hero shooters for PvP.

People not enjoying tab targeting interactions as before (see point 1)

PvP in MMO not as spectacular/sellable as other genres prevents them from gaining momentum.

Barrier to entry (both skill and gear) is an obstacle for getting new players.

Cost is also a significant barrier when people can consider f2p pvp games.

PvP in MMO is often condidered as a secondary priority compared to PvE, and is not balanced around it.

Huge lulls of content since there are no game modes, new classes, characters etc. to create hype. Seasons/patches can also be a downside if you liked the old tier set bonus more than the new tier set bonus.

Concerning point 7, rerolling it's much harder when you don't enjoy your class anymore.

Off the top of my head those are the main reasons, but I'm interested in reading other takes

It's NOT decreasing. Do you think solo shuffle and solo Blitz decreased the popularity? It happends on the other forums, that the PvP forum is more active than PvE(and its not only because of complains).

The new people are indeed playing SS and Blitz. That's what the ranking system is for. You dont meet sweaty Dota champions either the second you enter the Dota lobby.

The AWC is the only Blizzard sponsored tournement with a prize pool- regardless of people calling PvP for Blizzards forgotten child.

Personally - the only reason I play WoW is the degenerate PvP system. Im not even good, but they got me on the hamsterwheel.

[Polybius]

Go mention factions on Twitter or Reddit.
You're not allowed to have faction pride according to the most loud and obnoxious of the playerbase.

They're listening to that garbage.

They're also literally removing factions from battlegrounds in .7, so, pride? Where? What's the point?
wPvP is next.

Faction pride always applied to the winning faction, which just so happens to be the more populated faction by region. I don’t think you’ve played long enough to remember queue and population issues. PvP was on a decline long before barriers were blurred, and if not decline then burnout with players moving on.

[HansOlo]

Faction pride always applied to the winning faction, which just so happens to be the more populated faction by region. I don’t think you’ve played long enough to remember queue and population issues. PvP was on a decline long before barriers were blurred, and if not decline then burnout with players moving on.

Alliance is far superior vs. the horde in terms of win/loss ratio.

But that's because of PvPers rolls nelfs if possible. And people with that mindset, will try harder.

I agree with your point - thats nothing to with pride, but racial abilities. Im certian that the horde would take over, if it wasnt for shadow meld. And still wouldnt be because of pride, but everybody just plays horde these days(according to realm status).

[Lady Atia]

Because the best rewards are locked behind a tiny % of players and most people will never get there so they don't bother? They have to rework how seasonal pvp rewards are given out - probably per seasonal renown track, with rating only giving titles and nothing else. Add some tokens that can be used for older elite rewards (but they would still be limited per account per season so you will never manage to catch up to people who actually played a season) and you will see the % of people playing rated pvp skyrocket.

- - - Updated - - -

Alliance is far superior vs. the horde in terms of win/loss ratio.

But that's because of PvPers rolls nelfs if possible. And people with that mindset, will try harder.

I agree with your point - thats nothing to with pride, but racial abilities. Im certian that the horde would take over, if it wasnt for shadow meld. And still wouldnt be because of pride, but everybody just plays horde these days(according to realm status).

There are no factions in rated pvp anymore?

- - - Updated - - -

You fighting UI not players with wow.
wow pvp without addon config is straight up unplayable because you need things like dr timers, hide 50 pet nameplates obscuring vision while also highlighting shaman totem and weak auras that visualize enemy cooldowns because you cant tell without under nameplate & effect spam. (tiny buff under target nameplate is not really visible)
I came back after 2y break and im already reconsidering while fighting with lua errors. Bet many people feel same and quit even faster.

And traditionally pvp in wow died because it was a imbalanced shitshow with pve items giving freewins, pruning lowering skillcap and pay2win racial changes once race swap went to cashshop. Why would you waste your life with this collection of problems when you can have instant fair pvp in any other game? Its a shit deal. Its not even interesting when you are the op class with the oneshot pve item. You get your 2.2k in one week and stop playing...

The addon thing is a real issue though, and I honestly think combat addons should be removed from rated pvp. Just make it so that you can't get api access for enemy targets cd's while you play rated, etc.

[Mentaldemise]

I'd say PvP stopped being enjoyable after Vanilla, once they started making two separate games PvE Vs PvP it stopped being fun and started being a chore, introducing different stats and counterweights that made it boring to the majority of players, this has been amplified in retail, PvP is an entirely different game and requires insane amounts of dedication to succeed in much like mythic raiding and high keys do, the problem is, most players don't want to play 2 games in one, they want to play WoW for what it's always been about and can't be bothered trying to learn the PvP portion of the game since they're the antithesis of each other.

I'm a CE raider which means I have to dedicate 90% of my time to raiding and learning bosses/rotations/gearing etc etc, I literally cannot be assed to learn PvP which is arguably more researching than PvE just to be at the absolute entry point, I think that was the charm of Vanilla PvP, everyone could join in PvP at any time and not be at an overwhelmingly huge disadvantage when it comes to understanding what is happening in a PvP match.

That, and the 2 biggest in my opinion, addons, and class homogenization, needing 10 addons to be at a baseline is stupid and I honestly can't tell you the differences between most classes/specs even fighting them, every class has everything in its toolkit and it became a game of whack a mole with cooldowns, its just overwhelming and unenjoyable to me when I can pick any other PvP focused game that is cleaner and smoother than WoW's PvP and requires substantially less time to understand and start to improve in.

[heheszek]

Take chess as an example, there's a lack of intensity but there's a depth in a classical game with maybe a day long time duration, but it's perhaps too low intensity and too much contemplation, but then you have bullet with 30 sec total time and it's just a spewy puke of intensity, sure you can argue that 15 sec bullet xd chess has FAR higher skill cap than classical, but is that really interesting? to just smash the keyboard as fast as humanly possible all the time?

even those fast modes are still playing chess
Id rather compare modern wow to something like enhanced super giga chess with 6 queens 6 rocks 6 bishops and some crazy effects - there is a lot happening on the board, but it doesnt mean anything because u still have 10 options to not lose, it might look pro or amazing to watch(for a moment of course), but its just bad at the end of the day

its also funny how 5 dmg spells put 30 effects in ur dps matter and u cant even figure out ur gameplay/talent build using common sense

they dont understand that game pace is not how many buttons per second u press but also how much impact they should do.. or maybe they do understand
but they know ppl are addicted to press a lot of buttons as fast as possible - thats why game wont change, there are too many of those players

I dont wanna play long or infinite games, but there could be quick matches with more reasonable pace

[Jebz]

People realized there´s just so much better games for pvp.

[ArenaDk]

Its very simple : The mmr changes over the past years.

Pre Mop we had a system that allowed fast push , fast loses rating wise.

But to combat boosting they now changed it to hard caps of 20-25 rating a win, making it very annoying to push. as even if you beat people 400 rating above you, you get the same rating gain as beating someone 50 rating above you.

Than also the deflation of rating, while older seasons usually had pretty early the top 1% play at 2,4, more recently you have multiple weeks of semi good players and pro being put together in the 2,1-2,3 brackets. The semo good get pushed down, pushing down the next level of players there and so on. It also reduces the quality of games as you never know if a person is a pro or semi good. Specially for healer its harder to decide who will use cooldowns.

The best seasons for wow were the ones with inflated rating. Not only because more than 500 people got a glad mount but because there was more a sense of progress.

I have multiple glad friends who currently play for the last weeks at 1,9-2,2 jumping up and down. There is no feel for progress at all. Even worse for people who want to get into the game, and basically see that to get 50% of the rewards they would need to be top 0,1% of their specc.

Some speccs have you at top 1% with below 2k rating, were you get almost no rewards lol

Tldr : No rating inflation, no rewards , slow to none progression

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Alliance is far superior vs. the horde in terms of win/loss ratio.

But that's because of PvPers rolls nelfs if possible. And people with that mindset, will try harder.

I agree with your point - thats nothing to with pride, but racial abilities. Im certian that the horde would take over, if it wasnt for shadow meld. And still wouldnt be because of pride, but everybody just plays horde these days(according to realm status).

Wasnt there more nightelfs over 1,8 than horde players combined? ^^

[HansOlo]

I'd say PvP stopped being enjoyable after Vanilla, once they started making two separate games PvE Vs PvP it stopped being fun and started being a chore, introducing different stats and counterweights that made it boring to the majority of players, this has been amplified in retail, PvP is an entirely different game and requires insane amounts of dedication to succeed in much like mythic raiding and high keys do, the problem is, most players don't want to play 2 games in one, they want to play WoW for what it's always been about and can't be bothered trying to learn the PvP portion of the game since they're the antithesis of each other.

I'm a CE raider which means I have to dedicate 90% of my time to raiding and learning bosses/rotations/gearing etc etc, I literally cannot be assed to learn PvP which is arguably more researching than PvE just to be at the absolute entry point, I think that was the charm of Vanilla PvP, everyone could join in PvP at any time and not be at an overwhelmingly huge disadvantage when it comes to understanding what is happening in a PvP match.

That, and the 2 biggest in my opinion, addons, and class homogenization, needing 10 addons to be at a baseline is stupid and I honestly can't tell you the differences between most classes/specs even fighting them, every class has everything in its toolkit and it became a game of whack a mole with cooldowns, its just overwhelming and unenjoyable to me when I can pick any other PvP focused game that is cleaner and smoother than WoW's PvP and requires substantially less time to understand and start to improve in.

Any game is unfun, until you learn. I've played DOTA since WC3 mod. Good luck learning each hero and how to counter them. That is not less complicated.

Speaking of addons - I've got 3*1800 rting for tmogs.

I don't have any addons. I don't even have any name plate addon. Only thing I have is Details and Leatrix for QoL. To make it more simple, I'm a try hard middle aged man.

Now, I won't suggest games without addons. I just felt like punishing myself(never finished my UI project and I went CBA).

I think PvP in WoW is in better state than ever. Not the same as it's perfect. Sure people leaves, but new people always around to replace. PvP streaming is also more popular than PvE(not sure if its an argument).

Only bad thing is the rating system. It can be bad for your mental health. It requires far more work than PvE - even if you are multi-multi gladiator. But the dopamin level is comparable to rounding up a mythic raid.

[allegrian]

The surge in alternative popular pvp games such as LoL and fortnite, which are way simpler and easy to pick up than wow.
Wow pvp is too complex as the core colbat gameplay has become nore and more hectic each expansion. Pvp was more slow paced and strategic in early expansions, as combat itself was as well.

Modern wow combat in wow looks more similar to diablo 3-4 which it's hard to keep track of each spell/skill casted.

The best pvp gameplay to come out from wow in recent years is Plunderstorm

[heheszek]

People realized there´s just so much better games for pvp.

yeah kinda, but i think there is no other game with nice arena system or bg like wow
wow has so much pvp potential

The surge in alternative popular pvp games such as LoL and fortnite, which are way simpler and easy to pick up than wow.
Wow pvp is too complex as the core colbat gameplay has become nore and more hectic each expansion. Pvp was more slow paced and strategic in early expansions, as combat itself was as well.

Modern wow combat in wow looks more similar to diablo 3-4 which it's hard to keep track of each spell/skill casted.

The best pvp gameplay to come out from wow in recent years is Plunderstorm

u could even win in few seconds of a match in early "slow" paced expansions

i think current state is better for very top players which can distinguish themselves better than in tbc or wrath for example

but sadly for majority is like get proper talents(from others) get bis gear bis stats bis embellishments that are PROPER for current patch/minipatch and u have huge advantage over someone who wanna play on his own and is mechanically better

I dont know why the hell they pushed healers to some god mode state over the years(started in cata)... because they wanted more players to play it? I prefer tbc/wrath healer because it was weaker but actually had more impact on team and even duels 1vs1 were more interesting.
it ended like healers being unkillable(cant even scratch them) without dampening, but they seem to be useless at the same time

when i watch pvp streams as an old pvp guy it seems like pve for me for both healers and dpses, its similar to the situation with healers - there is a lot going on but at the end its boring and rly nothing happens .. kinda paradox

they rly can do some plunderstorm-like game but more wow class themed, maybe even battle pet or some special mobs/bosses included with nice balanced pace

what was called that arathi basin thingy that came up in bfa, something like that but RLY PVP not player vs poorly designed mobs with special condidtions maybe as a separate mod like plunderstorm would be cool

[Soon-TM]

Modern wow combat in wow looks more similar to diablo 3-4 which it's hard to keep track of each spell/skill casted.

That would actually be better than what we have now. At least you can play the highest difficulties of D3/D4 with the UI as-is and only a handful of skills/procs to care about... Much unlike WoW PvP unless we're talking about random BGs.

[Nzx]

PvP is decreasing in popularity because the only fun PvP in a game like WoW is a power fantasy. "High skill" PvP in this game is completely alienating for people to watch - tens of things happening at once, most of it with no/very little visual impact, and for the things that do have visual impact often you don't even see people's healthbars move until their 60% absorb and 30% DR runs out and then half the bar disappears before the healer immediately tops it off. From a player perspective, it's not fun when the enemy's expression of skill means you can't play your character half the time because you're stuck in a CC and when you can play your character you don't do any damage because you haven't burned through fifteen layers of defensives yet.

WoW's prime PvP was back in the days when people were keyboard turning and clicking their abilities. The reason for that is because it's easy to follow what's happening on the screen and the frags are fast: character swings sword, healthbar drops, ability goes off, enemy dies. If MOBA teamfights went 10 minutes and the carry followed the bruiser around shooting at it for 2.5 minutes while the healer kept putting shields on them, no one would watch (or play) that shit either. World PvP is pretty similar - it used to be fun when there was an element of danger. If a rogue caught you, you'd probably die in their opener. Now if a rogue catches you, you wait 8 seconds and then when you come out of a stun with 80% hp you both perform your PvE rotations on each other for a few minutes and whoever has the best gear wins.

It just isn't really that fun any more. People who want CC chains and defensive trades and 20 minute long arena games that go to double digit dampening are a minority. There's no "drop in and have fun" in PvP anymore - you need to know what your CC DRs with, when to use it, how long the enemy's defensive cooldowns are, what their burst windows look like so you can use your own DRs on the right thing, and when you know all that your reward is long boring fights.

tl;dr the majority of people want MMO PvP to be more like MMA than chess

[WilliamK2H]

because many players prefer cooperative or solo experiences, and PvP often requires high time investment, skill gaps, and can feel stressful compared to casual gameplay.

[Nuba]

Too many people with zero knowledge of the niddy griddy giving their opinions, some (most) saying why they dislike PvP to begin with.

Let me enlighten some of you guys on the reason PvPers are quitting lately (Dragonflight -> Now) and what Blizzard is doing to make it worse.

Back in BFA Blizzard changed the way rewards were earned (More specifically, Gladiator mounts) to require 50 wins above 2400+ in 3s. Thats all cool, people got their Gladiator and the popularity of PvP, especially in regards to the total amount of players playing the game, increased.

Given both BFA and Shadowlands were bad, people eventually quit the game, regardless if you're a PvPer or a PvEr, unless you're a streamer nobody will want to play BFA/Shadowlands.

Start Dragonflight and you have Solo shuffle, which in of itself drove people away from 3v3. Solo shuffle also had a big boom in MMR because of how many people were playing it (A LOT of people). Blizzard saw both of these things and decided to completely exterminate MMR gains, cap MMR and "timegate" progress from Season 2 onwards.

Because of this, now Rating, MMR and progress is all heavily capped. Imagine you were a 3000 rated player in Shadowlands, returning to WoW now and facing a bunch of multiglads in the 2000 rating bracket, and you're kind of hardstuck.

The above was supposed to be an exageration, but remember Pikaboo, a AWC-level player, only achieved their Gladiator mount last week(10+ weeks into the season). What chance does the average glad joe has?

So now, players progress is haulted, and not everyone wants to play ultra sweaty matches in the 2100 rated bracket. Players want to be in the rating they believe they are supposed to be, and the lack of progress has killed people's wish to continue playing.

[Dristereau]

Haven't done pretty much anything this season yet but;

- MMR is all over the place, S1 DF Shuffles were above 3300 by the end of the Season, others required an MMR boost to get to 2800. TWW has already had boosts from what I recall to Rated Arena, RBGs and Shuffle, with Blitz pretty high already.
- The MMR/CR fluctuations mean a reward for one Season is not the same the next which can make you query why you could play the same number of matches with the exact same W/L's in order and still end up a difference.
- Personal one here but the Elite Sets of DF/TWW aren't anything special, just another recolour. For some of the sets I'd argue the Elite PVP one isn't always better than some of the others. I preferred Legion's design where Mythic/Elite sets were fancier.
- Another personal one (not one I'd expect to achieve anyways) but I think the Gladiator mount this Season is atrocious. Thought the BFA Proto-Drakes, SL Soul Eaters and the S1/S4 DF Drakes were absolutely insane. The TWW S1 one looks like a DH Class Mount.

The MMR and the limit on Conquest means I usually don't play early Season, it's pretty pointless. Limited on gear due to caps (and bonus CQ mid season) and MMR is likely low enough you won't achieve goals you can do later in the season for less time.

[Big Thanks]

Is it just me who thinks PvP gotten better...and better...AND BETTER, every new expansion after Legion?

I mean...
For a NEW player, sure, the game is too overwhelming but for ME war within is the best its ever been With the addition of BG Blitz ofcourse.