In your opinion, why is PvP decreasing in popularity

[ThatsOurEric]

Because when 6 people are struggling to kill a healer class due to not doing enough damage, your PvP is dogshit.

[Stylia]

- It feels too complicated for new players to start learning arena.

- When there's a gear difference, there's a MAJOR difference, even if it's just 1-2 ilvl difference..

- Skill is "hidden" behind being able to read and utilize all the addons that you need to play the game. It's more important to have good addon setup than obtaining high arena knowledge.

- Rewards are handed out for free basically. Being a Gladiator was actually a FOS in the past. But now everyone wants to be a part of it with no effort, so they're giving it out for free.

- Rating depends from season to season, reaching 2.7k in one season, then having to mega struggle at 2.4k in the next season, only because inflation and mmr system changes every major patch......

- Having to go through 2-5hours of LFG to actually find someone to play with. Doing intense background checks on everyone before inviting them.

- Many people reached 2.4k once in their lifetime when the season inflation was out of proportions, and now they are hardstuck at 1.8k and only accepting x297 MEGA R1's since they think they are in same tier now with actual elite players...

- There are no separate pvp and pve tier sets.

- Both pvp and pve NEED separate balance teams who actually play the game sometimes, or watch some streams...

- Some class/spec changes are too drastic and gutting. It's super demotivating for rerolling to a spec which is #1 currently, just for it to become the worst spec in the game next week. Like wtf?

It's a bit sad, kinda going in the right direction, needs just some fine tuning like stop making major changes to the mmr system every 3 days.....

[thunder4o]

- It feels too complicated for new players to start learning arena. -True

- When there's a gear difference, there's a MAJOR difference, even if it's just 1-2 ilvl difference.. - False

- Skill is "hidden" behind being able to read and utilize all the addons that you need to play the game. It's more important to have good addon setup than obtaining high arena knowledge. -True and False

- Rewards are handed out for free basically. Being a Gladiator was actually a FOS in the past. But now everyone wants to be a part of it with no effort, so they're giving it out for free. -False

- Rating depends from season to season, reaching 2.7k in one season, then having to mega struggle at 2.4k in the next season, only because inflation and mmr system changes every major patch...... -True

- Having to go through 2-5hours of LFG to actually find someone to play with. Doing intense background checks on everyone before inviting them. -True

- Many people reached 2.4k once in their lifetime when the season inflation was out of proportions, and now they are hardstuck at 1.8k and only accepting x297 MEGA R1's since they think they are in same tier now with actual elite players... -True

- There are no separate pvp and pve tier sets. -True

- Both pvp and pve NEED separate balance teams who actually play the game sometimes, or watch some streams... -True

- Some class/spec changes are too drastic and gutting. It's super demotivating for rerolling to a spec which is #1 currently, just for it to become the worst spec in the game next week. Like wtf? -Thats what fotm rerollers deserve,sadly that rarely happens,after first few months of the season there are no more tuning changes and whoever is on top stays untill the end of the season.

It's a bit sad, kinda going in the right direction, needs just some fine tuning like stop making major changes to the mmr system every 3 days.....

-Sadly they dont make mmr changes every 3 days.

- - - Updated - - -

Because when 6 people are struggling to kill a healer class due to not doing enough damage, your PvP is dogshit.

This 6 people must be extra dogshit in PvP if they cant kill a Healer.Easily 2 dps can kill a healer as long they dont suck

- - - Updated - - -

I think the biggest issues with WoW PvP are:

- Too much depends on gear. WoW PvP is really GvG (gear vs gear) until everyone is maxed out. Anyone who decides to try PvP for the first time at max level is mercilessly crushed by the lack of PvP specific gear. Sorry, but the notion of you must suffer before you can even remotely compete in PvP is an incredibly stupid philosophy. No PvP worthy game purposes allows the mingling of high end players against noobs. You can't grow this part of the game based on punishments...you grow this part of the game via encouragements. Furthermore, winning just because I had better gear doesn't give me any pleasure...I didn't beat the person because of skill, I beat them because of gear. Hollow victory. Make PvP be about actual PvP, not gear. Nothing feels better than beating someone because you actually did better...and I don't mind the loses in reverse when I'm beaten by skill in lieu of gear.

- Stuns are the wrong answer. First thing players need to recognize that stuns are a kludge fix for balance issues...they really shouldn't be as prevalent as they are. For new players, the most important part of stuns is that they aren't fun. Nobody wants to sit powerless while getting stunned multiple times in a row. Blizz needs to focus on balancing (involves work) instead of relying on kludge fixes (laziness).

- Caster interrupts. One problem is the necessity for healers (see point below), but in general the need for this went away a long time ago. Yes, back in Vanilla and BC, an uninterrupted caster could be deadly, but the days of glass canons are long since over. So new players with casters trying to play PvP get to experience even less fun than described under stuns. Caster damage is already moderated (when I get targeted as a caster, it isn't because I'm a big threat, but mostly because I'm viewed as an easier kill), so this needs to be rethought a bit. Either make casters glass canons again, or make interrupts less common (like stuns).

- Healer imbalance. I understand that Blizz thought they needed to make healers near-invulnerable gods in PvP to encourage healers to join, but it was taken way too far. I've watched 3 to 4 new PvP players focused on a single hearler doing they best that they could do with interrupts / stuns and still not take a healer down (partially due to the gear problem). Sure, experienced PvP players understand what needs to be done, but, again, if you want PvP the thrive, you can't push a bunch of punishment of new players who can't possibly understand what they are doing wrong to just "get good". To a smaller extent, the same is true with tanks. Their ability to self-heal is just too over-the-top for new players to understand what can be done (and if they don't have good enough gear, there is literally nothing they can do).

I'm sure I'll get some "interesting" replies here. I'm a casual PvP player (197 honor level) that doesn't do arena or rated PvP. I'm simply trying to point out some obvious issues that need to be resolved if you want to grow this part of the game. Too many have accepted the abuse as "that's the way things are and really should be". Accept that you've been needlessly abused (or gamed the system to become an abuser) to understand that the abuse needs to go away if you want more to join.

And it shows you are casual PvP player,you didnt have a single right point.Gear is non issues since DF.CC problem is with Micro CCs not the stuff you talk about.There should be Interrupts in the game.Healers are fine but the problem lies in the balance between some of the healers.

[Akibaboy]

Personally, it's because there's enough content to do in the PvE space now where I no longer experience basically any toxicity or BS that I can't be bothered to engage in the PvP experience anymore. Hitting 2500 M+ and doing Curve every season casually is enjoyable, collectibles are alright, balance is pretty good (I saw a post comparing the disparity across versions of WoW, and TWW is one of the tightest balance windows we've had), and when I just wanna chill I can play Classic or SoD.

That wasn't always the case. Back in the day I'd run out of content fast, slam some alts, and then feel like I should do PvP so me and my friends had something to play. Legion I did a lot of PvP because of how I could literally sign up any toon of mine without a gear grind being a significant barrier of entry. BfA I did a lot of War Mode, because of the promotion of world objectives and such. The faction war zone events. The endless was in Nazjatar was great. Mass murder against leatherworking farmers in the porcupine and pig camps in Drustvar was incredible, and then they'd call in backup and an all out, organic war would break out.

[NineSpine]

Because they overcomplicated the class design to achieve the kind of "fight a boss while juggling knives and playing guitar hero" gameplay they wanted, and that comes at the expense of PvP. They should just bite the bullet and give people different, more limited kits in PvP.

[Stylia]

[QUOTE=thunder4o;54635236]-Sadly they dont make mmr changes every 3 days.

- - - Updated - - -


Im glad that's the only thing you disagree on

But are you sure they dont change it?

- Season starts, everyone hardstuck at 1.6k.
- Then after 2-3 weeks they notice this and start adding some mmr changes/inflation.
- After 2-3 more weeks, they realize people only went up by 50 rating and are still giga annoyed for facing r1s and boosters at 1.6k mmr.
- After 2-3 more weeks, they maybe notice this, but usually they dont do anything.
- After 2-3 more weeks, they change mmr again, and suddenly everyone goes up by 800-1000 rating, but they gut every class that had representation higher than 10%.
- After few more weeks, season end is near, and again, you only see r1s and boosters in the 1.6k - 2k range.

People just aint happy with this... Have a stable system. Dont temper with it so often.

[Itisamuh]

And it shows you are casual PvP player,you didnt have a single right point.Gear is non issues since DF.CC problem is with Micro CCs not the stuff you talk about.There should be Interrupts in the game.Healers are fine but the problem lies in the balance between some of the healers.

No, some of his points were quite right, and yours quite wrong. (See, anyone can assert their opinion as fact.) As long as gear exists at all, it is an issue. Healers are absolutely too strong compared to old expansions.

[agentsi]

[QUOTE=Stylia;54635249]

-Sadly they dont make mmr changes every 3 days.

- - - Updated - - -


Im glad that's the only thing you disagree on

But are you sure they dont change it?

- Season starts, everyone hardstuck at 1.6k.
- Then after 2-3 weeks they notice this and start adding some mmr changes/inflation.
- After 2-3 more weeks, they realize people only went up by 50 rating and are still giga annoyed for facing r1s and boosters at 1.6k mmr.
- After 2-3 more weeks, they maybe notice this, but usually they dont do anything.
- After 2-3 more weeks, they change mmr again, and suddenly everyone goes up by 800-1000 rating, but they gut every class that had representation higher than 10%.
- After few more weeks, season end is near, and again, you only see r1s and boosters in the 1.6k - 2k range.

People just aint happy with this... Have a stable system. Dont temper with it so often.

This sounds like complete drivel. You have zero evidence of this, and are just spouting nonsense you made up.

Are you okay?

Most folks get their high rating in the first few weeks because the more skilled players can prey on all the new players playing before mmr separates folks. Then again at the end of the seasons, players can move up in ranks as anyone who cares is trying to push that. The only time's I've ever been above 2.3k mmr, is the first few weeks, or the last few weeks, because during the season only the more skilled folks who play all the time play.


On Topic though, PvP is on a decline because of the barrier of entry. If you want to get above 2k MMR, you need to know your class well, and you need to have a fairly decent idea of what every other class is capable of. Not to mention you need a least 1-2 teammates that are fairly skilled as well. It;s extremely difficult.

[Stylia]

[QUOTE=agentsi;54635255]

This sounds like complete drivel. You have zero evidence of this, and are just spouting nonsense you made up.

Are you okay?

Most folks get their high rating in the first few weeks because the more skilled players can prey on all the new players playing before mmr separates folks. Then again at the end of the seasons, players can move up in ranks as anyone who cares is trying to push that. The only time's I've ever been above 2.3k mmr, is the first few weeks, or the last few weeks, because during the season only the more skilled folks who play all the time play.


On Topic though, PvP is on a decline because of the barrier of entry. If you want to get above 2k MMR, you need to know your class well, and you need to have a fairly decent idea of what every other class is capable of. Not to mention you need a least 1-2 teammates that are fairly skilled as well. It;s extremely difficult.

Mate, this shows that your arena knowledge and experience is very limited...

For first 4 weeks of this season, there were 3 people above 2k cr.
For more than 1-2 months, there was a decline in players due to this issue.

Please follow how arena rating progresses and then comment like this.

[agentsi]

[QUOTE=Stylia;54635269]

Mate, this shows that your arena knowledge and experience is very limited...

For first 4 weeks of this season, there were 3 people above 2k cr.
For more than 1-2 months, there was a decline in players due to this issue.

Please follow how arena rating progresses and then comment like this.

Prove it.

I'll wait.

Everyone starts at 1500, and early on in games, you sometimes get upwards of 50-100 rating per win. I know after Solo Shuffle, I'd be 2k after about 15 games when things went well. Staying there was a different issue.

https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/

I follow this site every season I PvP, to see what meta comps are, and what to avoid or focus on trying to counter inside of the first week. EVERY SINGLE SEASON, people are over 2k.

[ThatsOurEric]

This 6 people must be extra dogshit in PvP if they cant kill a Healer.Easily 2 dps can kill a healer as long they dont suck

Not when the healer outgears them tremendously. So no, PvP is still dogshit if that's the case.

[Elodeon]

Main reason I no longer PvP is what Blizzard did with Deepwind Gorge and the achievements.

I used to PvP in casual battlegrounds, for the achievements. I earned Battlemaster, Khan, etc. I spent many hours in Deepwind Gorge to complete all of the achievements.

Then, some genius at Blizzard decides that Deepwind Gorge should be completely re-engineered. They completely replace the map and the mechanics, gut all of the achievements, yank all of my achievement points from that, and give me a new blank slate to complete.

Nope. The reason to complete achievements is that they stay. If they don't stay, there is no reason to complete achievements.

[Stylia]

[QUOTE=agentsi;54635314]

Prove it.

I'll wait.

Everyone starts at 1500, and early on in games, you sometimes get upwards of 50-100 rating per win. I know after Solo Shuffle, I'd be 2k after about 15 games when things went well. Staying there was a different issue.

https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/

I follow this site every season I PvP, to see what meta comps are, and what to avoid or focus on trying to counter inside of the first week. EVERY SINGLE SEASON, people are over 2k.

You're talking about placement games...

Of course you get 50-100 rating for first few wins, as your mmr is much higher than the cr which just got reset. And this increase stops after first 5-10 games of the season. This is just logical.

The site that you follow for all the things you mentioned, doesn't mean much, everyone uses some leaderboard tools to inspect. And obviously you need to keep track of how the meta is changing.

Still, doesn't change the fact, that first few seasons of every season, there is no inflation added to the rating/mmr calculation. In order to stop players from skyrocketing from 0-3k rating on first few weeks.
That is why everyone is hardstuck at 2k for first few weeks of the season. Until they start adding inflation bit by bit. Read up about these patches which happen EVERY season. Sometimes earlier, sometimes later in the season.


tl;dr - I'm only complaining about this system being changed from season to season and not being reliable and stable. Im not complaining about being hardstuck.
Top ranked players are being held back, hence why facing lower rated/xpd players for first few weeks of the season.

While you're so full of knowledge and experience, mind telling me, how long did it take for people to obtain gladiator this season? Im not talking about Whaazz and Lontar getting it after 2-3 weeks as first in the world. But general population, top #2-#5 teams got gladiators when, after how many weeks of season start??

[agentsi]

[QUOTE=Stylia;54636500]

You're talking about placement games...

Of course you get 50-100 rating for first few wins, as your mmr is much higher than the cr which just got reset. And this increase stops after first 5-10 games of the season. This is just logical.

The site that you follow for all the things you mentioned, doesn't mean much, everyone uses some leaderboard tools to inspect. And obviously you need to keep track of how the meta is changing.

Still, doesn't change the fact, that first few seasons of every season, there is no inflation added to the rating/mmr calculation. In order to stop players from skyrocketing from 0-3k rating on first few weeks.
That is why everyone is hardstuck at 2k for first few weeks of the season. Until they start adding inflation bit by bit. Read up about these patches which happen EVERY season. Sometimes earlier, sometimes later in the season.


tl;dr - I'm only complaining about this system being changed from season to season and not being reliable and stable. Im not complaining about being hardstuck.
Top ranked players are being held back, hence why facing lower rated/xpd players for first few weeks of the season.

While you're so full of knowledge and experience, mind telling me, how long did it take for people to obtain gladiator this season? Im not talking about Whaazz and Lontar getting it after 2-3 weeks as first in the world. But general population, top #2-#5 teams got gladiators when, after how many weeks of season start??

And now you're backpedaling. Good job at proving my point, and failing to produce any evidence to prove yours.

Cheers.

[Rootsbum]

Skill ceiling is high, entrance is brutal for someone undergeared: Both the slander and gear; they dont even stand a chance.

The gap between random and rated stuff is also huge, and the queues become longer.
Arena is nice, but personally I enjoy a big map with objectives.

Also to me at least, some classes just...suck in PVP lol.
Newer /updated classes play smooth like something from a modern game, then you have other classes that can be locked down and nuked. And the balancing changes alot, so for example destrolock can make up for its clunkiness with being tanky; But suddenly its not tanky at all anymore.

And lacking mobility and seeing you opponent swoosh, doublejump, grapplehook and explode into space , I....

I have alot to say about this , hah.

Ill just go with; I love PVP, but its wonky af.
Weird thinking about how monk had elite mobility, but now its just some dude who can roll a distance wich is neat, but not amazing anymore compared to others lol

[Meowtwo]

And now you're backpedaling. Good job at proving my point, and failing to produce any evidence to prove yours.

Cheers.

He is right though, iirc venruki (and a few others) made a bunch of videos on this this season. Solo shuffle cr was hardcapped for a long time, then they started adding artifical mmr into the seaon. R1 was 2k for a few specs for the first few weeks of the season, now STARTING mmr is 1950.

Edit:

Just to take the example of fire mage, r1 on fire mage in solo shuffle EU was 1948 on 03.10.2024, today its 2790. So, no, you are just factually wrong here.

[NekoOwlAzure]

Because MMO PvP is either instant death zerg fest or too long to die cooldown trading. It's a shit genre for PvP and so all of the turbo sweats who play exclusively PvP left for the genres that were specifically designed for PvP. It's not 2004 any more where your choices for online PvP games were Counter-Strike and MMOs, there's a million different options now.

Like Plants VS Zombies.

[Zardi]

I'd say there's a strong entry barrier with PvP gear alone.
Then there's the skill gap when transitioning into PvP from a PvE environment.
Finally, add that PvP rewards barely provide any benefit outside of PvP.

So, with tough requirements to enter, and no actual reward to get from it, they basically removed everyone bar the die-hard PvPers from the game. This results on low-player count, which only gets worse as the ones playing reach their rating/gear goals.

I think the requirements and rewards should be made more attractive for the casual or otherwise PvP-curious player. They'd still have trouble with the Skill gap, but that's the point of PvP, right?

[neocount]

I'd say there's a strong entry barrier with PvP gear alone.

This is a big one. The times when PvP gear wasn't a thing, it was simple for bored players to just jump in. Same with the old Southshore battles - people just wore whatever gear they had and it didn't matter quite as much.

[HansOlo]

I feel like the comments are nonsense and made by people - who absolutely have no clue about PvP.

It's a bunch of casual PvErs talking about PvP. It's freaking annoying.

Background - I have played 2K rounds this season and I earned my 2.4K. Im among top 400-500 rogues. I just started this season, so I'm not some former gladiator or R1(you can tell - a gladiator takes about 100-200 rounds to reach same rating and even less for R1s).

Weaken the argument:

Argument 1: "It's too hard to enter PvP for new players"
Nobody buys WoW to play PvP. People who PvP are technically not new. They are PvErs, who wants to PvP.
Which makes this argument particularly nonsense. For fact - I started to PvP and push really hard this season - and I some achieved highs - this once again proves that people are just bad and they just complain.

Argument 2: "It's difficult to gear"
You can technically get BiS in few hours(this include fully socketed gear).
Never been easier for the last 20years.

Argument 3: "I want to reach 1.8K for TMOG in solo shuffle - but I can't - it's too hard".
Typical PvE perspective. Getting 1.8K is very easy. In fact - you are in balance of 2000MMR and you gain expontially for each win.
If you still fail - that's on you.

Argument 4: "I want to have gladiator title"
Typical PvE pespective. Gladiator is equally hard - if not harder than mythic raid clearing on your realm. It's supposed to be for special kind of gamer.

Argument 5: "PvP is DED"
The fact how big this thread is - in a sub that techincally been dead for years - proves that PvP is actually very popular(or atleast gaining some ground). Like it or not - this is probably because of SS.

- - - Updated - - -

He is right though, iirc venruki (and a few others) made a bunch of videos on this this season. Solo shuffle cr was hardcapped for a long time, then they started adding artifical mmr into the seaon. R1 was 2k for a few specs for the first few weeks of the season, now STARTING mmr is 1950.

Edit:

Just to take the example of fire mage, r1 on fire mage in solo shuffle EU was 1948 on 03.10.2024, today its 2790. So, no, you are just factually wrong here.

Ahh - yeah. Venruki - the new Bellular.