What is the future of Hero Talents?

[Arkthugal]

Level squish and redesign in 2030. You simply can't keep vertical progression forever. They have tried system that autofix itself - main class layer that doesn't change and borrowed power that change every expac. People hated it, so 'fresh start' every ~8-10 years is only logical path.

As for Hero Talents, they are just passives. They exist so you can spend points for 71-80 levels without shaking main talents. So near future is 20 more points in Midnight and Last Titan. As for later, I can see them removed (or merged with main talents) after redesign and Blizzard keeping cosmetic layer - it could be start of class skins.

Honestly I feel like the best move would be to just make the talent trees work like hero talents, where you just get all of them by max level. It's not like anyone makes any real decisions with the current talent trees. You go to a website and copy the best build for the patch. The only people that meaningfully engage with the current talent trees are theorycrafters. For everyone else they're more like an obstacle to playing the game.

[HansOlo]

I like the system, but its not ideal for long term.

There is literally no difference between unlocking an ability after a level up and Hero Talents.

I think you should pick a Hero Speciality. Everything else is passive ability you earn from level up. Easy to balance and execute.

[huth]

But that is the problem that i mentioned, they are not doing just that, and that by itself adds to the fact its a problem to balance overall, because the specs play different and the skills are different, you need to balance in a way that is equal for two different specs who sometimes are entirely different, can't you see how hard that is?

That wasn't a hypothetical. You actually get different effects for different specs. They are doing it.

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I like the system, but its not ideal for long term.

There is literally no difference between unlocking an ability after a level up and Hero Talents.

I think you should pick a Hero Speciality. Everything else is passive ability you earn from level up. Easy to balance and execute.

There is a difference in how each is experienced. It feels more impactful for the player to place the point, even when power wise, there's no difference.
There's also no real advantage from their side to what you suggest.

[Syegfryed]

That wasn't a hypothetical. You actually get different effects for different specs. They are doing it..

Lmao, you just repeated what you said missing the point entirely, again

[huth]

Lmao, you just repeated what you said missing the point entirely, again

You didn't make any actual point in the first place. Blizzard has been doing that shit for 30+ specs for the last 20 years.

There will always be differences between specs so long as they aren't just recolours of each other.

[Raidoser]

I think its a missed oportunity to have hero talents not be auto-available, but tie them into a nice little quest chain, similair to the legion artifacts.
Let players feel they earned these powers and worked for them.
Sure, there van be passives, but at least give 1 new spell or replace 1-2 spells.

And once players have reached 80, let there be a mastery-quest chain that ends in the player earning the title of said hero talent.

This way, the whole hero talent-road, feels like its a reward - not a given. And, every class gets a little bit more flavour and replayability!

Only if the colossus quest send you to learn the secret of lifting with the drogbar ending with an epic training montage (a little like the hidden master questline in the Valley of four winds.)

[ZazuuPriest]

They have absolutely no plans for Hero Talents going forward. Lets be honest there are maybe like 6 choice nodes that made even a slight difference between all of the hero talents. They will bake them into a single node in the normal talent tree in the future.

There is no depth here, none of the Hero Talents or specs are interesting in any way

[Syegfryed]

You didn't make any actual point in the first place. Blizzard has been doing that shit for 30+ specs for the last 20 years.

There will always be differences between specs so long as they aren't just recolours of each other.

you keep doubling down on not understanding the point i made, is it to save face?

I was not even criticising blizzard on the aspect you are talking about so you defending this shit ass company like this makes even less sense here

[PenguinChan]

I think going forward into 90 they should make the new talents cosmetic options so balancing no longer becomes an issue.

I feel like strict balance is starting to take a backseat in favor of newer mechanics and designs like it used to be. For better or for worse, balance is the antithesis of fun. The sooner WoW drops balance in favor of fun is the day it becomes a better game.

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Honestly I feel like the best move would be to just make the talent trees work like hero talents, where you just get all of them by max level. It's not like anyone makes any real decisions with the current talent trees. You go to a website and copy the best build for the patch. The only people that meaningfully engage with the current talent trees are theorycrafters. For everyone else they're more like an obstacle to playing the game.

Except if you do that then most classes end up being able to do Single / AoE / Hybrid / Burst / Sustain / etc…

Saying talent trees aren’t a choice is silly. Of course they matter and if you don’t pick up the talents for that style of play it’s gimped or just doesn’t exist for that person.

[Arkthugal]

Except if you do that then most classes end up being able to do Single / AoE / Hybrid / Burst / Sustain / etc…

Good, let them.

[huth]

you keep doubling down on not understanding the point i made, is it to save face?

I was not even criticising blizzard on the aspect you are talking about so you defending this shit ass company like this makes even less sense here

Again, you haven't actually made one. Maybe you think you did, but all you produced was generic complaining with no substance.

[Maxilian]

Except if you do that then most classes end up being able to do Single / AoE / Hybrid / Burst / Sustain / etc…

Saying talent trees aren’t a choice is silly. Of course they matter and if you don’t pick up the talents for that style of play it’s gimped or just doesn’t exist for that person.

IMHO as long as the talents don't feel the same between one or the other, it doesn't really matter if all of them are as good as the other for different situations.

[Syegfryed]

Again, you haven't actually made one. Maybe you think you did, but all you produced was generic complaining with no substance.

Made one enough for you to be bitching about for this long when you got it wrong.

[Allarielle]

Re: Syegfryed and huth.
So Syegfryed argued that because Hero specs are shared across two different base specs, Blizzard has a harder time designing them with consideration to the fact that the hero specs add new gameplay that doesn't necessarily mesh with the gameplay of the base spec. Because of this, Syegfryed argued that the hero specs should instead focus on only buffing the skills of the base spec, rather than adding new ones that modify the rotation... did I understand that correctly? huth countered that the skills added in hero specs are already rebalanced depending on which base spec it's attached on to. It seems to me that both points are valid, but aren't really talking about the same thing. I'm also curious which base specs have their gameplay feel changed in the way that Syegfryed talks about? I've only played Evoker, and haven't noticed any issues with the hero spec notably changing the gameplay, but that leaves a lot of hero specs I don't know about.

Re: The goal of hero specs.
It seems the community is really divided on what the actual point of hero specs is:
1) Were they intended to be class skins with a little gameplay flavour added in?
2) Were they intended to be a new avenue for expanding the talent trees, and the modified visuals were simply fluff added on top?
Personally, I think that in either case they miss the bill, on the grounds that the added power and the visuals are both non-optional. Players who don't want the changed fantasy that comes with their hero spec don't have the choice not to choose a hero spec.
I do think that hero specs are an improvement over simple class skins, because if I'm playing a particular fantasy, I think my rotation and available tools should reflect that fantasy. Unfortunately, the fact that they're mandatory even for people who don't want that fantasy for their character undermines the entire system. I have a couple ideas for how to fix that, depending on Blizzard's intention for the system?
1) Make it so each hero talent comes with a decrease in power equal to its increase - IE, Add a new skill, but remove an equivalent one from the base tree at the same time. In this way, people who don't want a given fantasy can simply choose not to take a hero spec at all, and they won't be gimping themselves.
2) Make a new hero spec for each base spec that is simply an extension of the base spec's fantasy. IE, as Augmentation Evoker I would have the choice of 1) Scalecommander, 2) Chronowarden, and 3) Improved Augmentation. In this way, I can get an equivalent amount of added power without compromising my class fantasy.

Re: The future of the system
My assumption, for now, is that in future expansions they will add both new hero spec options and expand the size of the hero spec trees. I am hoping that in Midnight they will refine the system significantly to get rid of the problem I (and others) talked about above - where Dwarf Hunters are forced into either an undead or night elf fantasy. I'm also hoping that they will flesh them out to give real choices like in the base talent trees, instead of having you take every talent. A significant part of the point of the talent system, in my mind, is to enable some customization of your character - the current design for the hero specs system misses that bill. My thinking is that by TLT, they'll be basically the same size as the base trees, and we'll have 3 or 4 choices to choose from per base spec.

[PenguinChan]

Good, let them.

To what overall benefit though? Easier for players to come back after taking a 3-6 month - 1-2 year break and getting back into the swing of things? That's the main thing I can see happening which I can understand.

[jbombard]

They have absolutely no plans for Hero Talents going forward. Lets be honest there are maybe like 6 choice nodes that made even a slight difference between all of the hero talents. They will bake them into a single node in the normal talent tree in the future.

There is no depth here, none of the Hero Talents or specs are interesting in any way

I tend to agree with this.
It really just serves as a "oooh new shiny" thing for the expansion.

If they had larger progression trees like Path of Exile this would be less of an issue. You spend your points to reach key abilities that give you something that affects your class in a big way. I think they don't do this because they are afraid people can't handle the complexity and/or they can't handle the balancing. Which means more than likely we get some different "oooh new shingy" thing that doesn't really add any depth.

[huth]

I tend to agree with this.
It really just serves as a "oooh new shiny" thing for the expansion.

If they had larger progression trees like Path of Exile this would be less of an issue. You spend your points to reach key abilities that give you something that affects your class in a big way. I think they don't do this because they are afraid people can't handle the complexity and/or they can't handle the balancing. Which means more than likely we get some different "oooh new shingy" thing that doesn't really add any depth.

It works in PoE because PoE doesn't even pretend to have any real balance between or even within classes. Nobody could balance that monster and it's way to easy to just make entirely broken characters in any sense of that word.

[jbombard]

It works in PoE because PoE doesn't even pretend to have any real balance between or even within classes. Nobody could balance that monster and it's way to easy to just make entirely broken characters in any sense of that word.

Yeah probably true. Still it would be nice to see something more additive and stable, but with squishes being a regular thing now, just gonna lose everything every few xpacs anyway.

[huth]

Yeah probably true. Still it would be nice to see something more additive and stable, but with squishes being a regular thing now, just gonna lose everything every few xpacs anyway.

PoE you lose everything every major quarterly patch. I think you're overlooking the downsides of that system.

WoW we're looking at 6-8 year cycles instead.

[danishali]

I agree that Hero Talents need significant improvements to feel engaging. Hopefully, they get the attention they deserve, similar to how "Car Parking Multiplayer " evolved with better updates and features.