I don't really like "modern" class gameplay.

[Tech614]

Yea no they all have more than 2 buttons. By way of example resto sham has or had at one point lightning bolt, chain lightning, flame shock, lava burst and im probabaly missing some.

Resto Shaman dps is literally acid rain, which comes from healing rain, keep flame shock on at least 1 target and hit lava burst on cd and when flame shock proc resets it. That's 2 buttons since one is just a passive from your healing lol.

But nice try buddy, just because you have buttons doesn't make them optimal parts of the rotation. If you're using lightning bolt on a resto shaman you are doing it incredibly wrong.

[demongamertt]

There is always classic if you want to press 123 repeat.

This!

I love the complexity and the need to real dexterity in order to play the game specially nowadays that the game embraced p2w and some people just swipe their credit cars to have max lvl everything in the very first months of a new expantion/patch.

The most fun thing available atm in the game is to outdps/outheal/outsurvive players with more Ilvl, WoW have a LOT of player skill expression and is the only MMO/Multiplayer game to have that in a PvE environment instead of just being a stats check spreadsheet where the outcome of every single encounter is well defined and knon before it even happens(like it was in Vanilla and TBC) just based on the gear of that character.

[Feeline10]

Damage/healing comes from sooo many different sources that nothing really feels that powerful. For instance my holy priest, renew in itself does close to nothing on its own, you kinda have to keep it up for 10% increased healing on targets with it up, then there is some heal proc when PoM heals target with renew on and there is another one stat stacks as renew ticks.
Kinda prefrred it when you wanted to cast renew just because it was just a nice HoT on its own. That theme is present all over other classes, not saying that "vanilla style" where you pressed just one or two buttons was ideal, but since wrath pretty much every class had a solid rotation/priority and it still felt really good when you just saw that juicy WW crits on warrior, where now ww is just a tool to activate warriors cleave.

I agree with this sentiment. Everything is if this procs then use this, otherwise use this over here to get this to proc. And then if that procs, we'll golly you'll crap your pants because this one over here will light up and that's what's best to click.

I do miss kind of the old school simplicity of my holy and disc priest.

I can appreciate complexity and deep systems.. as long as they've morphed and evolved into deepness and complexity in a genuine and real way. Not for the sake of just.. doing it that way.

[fazaim]

M+ dungeons came mid-WoD, not in Legion.

Oh really?

"Legion: Patch 7.0.3 (2016-07-19): Added, replacing Challenge Mode. "

[Eurhetemec]

We are talking here about the influence of modernization. WoW's rotations are objectively more complex in modern WoW than in classic.

Ok? No-one was arguing to the contrary. Seems like you're skimming not reading. I'm not convinced you understand what I mean by feel/experience.

But it's far from optimal

It really isn't with a lot of classes/specs, that's part of the problem. People can get by on doing this pretty deep into the game, and Blizzard thus doesn't seem to understand that whilst it works, it isn't a very compelling way to play. Unfortunately they seem hyperfocused on balancing absolutely everything in class gameplay design around the sort of top 1% or less of players.

and if you are not pre planning (your positionings, your offensive/defensive cooldowns, your route, your utility, drinking, etc) you won't be able to do hard content.

Very clearly you can do "hard" content in the normal sense of the word without planning all that very carefully, so long as you actually use your abilities, and position sanely, and drink when you can (for relevant classes). Planning your route is only for M+ and essentially entirely shoved on to the tank so that's irrelevant to most "hard" content and only relevant to 1 in 5 players otherwise.

Considering how many players fail basic mechanics it's pretty much a thing of "OMG TOO MANY THINGS TO THINK ABOUT".

You're conflating two issues. A lot of players fail basic mechanics not because they have too many things to think about, but simply because they don't care about the mechanics, or think they're too good for them. Others do fail them because there's too much going on, but in many cases the are major issues with how WoW is displaying/presenting those mechanics. Also kind of increasingly there's an issue where there are simply too many different things going on, such at even if it was slowed-down to allow better decision-making, it'd still be a mess. I think Blizzard need to really chill on a lot of this, but they probably won't.

There is strategy to think about, but if you're already overwhelmed with your rotation, you don't have the mental bandwidth to deal with strategy.

Tactics you mean but sure - this has always been an issue to varying degrees in MMORPGs. Classes which require you to do more just to make them operate leave you with less ability to deal with positioning, using cooldowns intelligently and so on. WoW has made it worse and worse, expansion on expansion, and unfortunately shows no sign of wanting to do otherwise. Rotations got cleaned up a bit in terms of the numbers of buttons to press, but most have de facto become more complex because the precise ordering of ability use has been made more important, which frankly is not great design and does indeed push WoW in a sort of "rhythm game" direction.

[Mehrunes]

Oh really?

"Legion: Patch 7.0.3 (2016-07-19): Added, replacing Challenge Mode. "

Ah, my bad. 6.2 added mythic dungeons, without the +.

[Archy]

Ok? No-one was arguing to the contrary. Seems like you're skimming not reading. I'm not convinced you understand what I mean by feel/experience.

But they are. Seems you are typing but not thinking (I can also do bullshit accusations). We are talking about the modernization, about changes. If you're thinking WoW got more complex, it doesn't make any sense to complain, in this context, that WoW isn't complex enough. The direction it took was clearly the right one, for you, in this case.

No, I really don't understand what you mean. It seems to me that you're saying that WoW got less complex, but faster. But you clearly just stated that you don't think that it got less complex. (I hope you don't mean that boss encounters got less complex, because that doesn't even dignify a response.)

It really isn't with a lot of classes/specs, that's part of the problem. People can get by on doing this pretty deep into the game, and Blizzard thus doesn't seem to understand that whilst it works, it isn't a very compelling way to play. Unfortunately they seem hyperfocused on balancing absolutely everything in class gameplay design around the sort of top 1% or less of players.

So first of all. How did this change in the modernization? We already agreed that rotations got more complex. So, logically, playing optimal is harder than ever before. Also not sure what balancing and having to play optimally have in common. Having to bring a class because of XYZ does happen already. Or do you mean that gameplay has to be homogenized in order to facilitate proper balancing? In this case, I think there is plenty of different play styles left, but granted, because of they limited, simplistic way they played and the niche, but necessary abilities they brought, classes felt more different. Still playing them optimal was far easier than it is now.

Very clearly you can do "hard" content in the normal sense of the word without planning all that very carefully, so long as you actually use your abilities, and position sanely, and drink when you can (for relevant classes). Planning your route is only for M+ and essentially entirely shoved on to the tank so that's irrelevant to most "hard" content and only relevant to 1 in 5 players otherwise.

I would say mythic raiding (and heroic in the beginning) takes a lot of very careful planning. More than it took ever before. Actually it has gotten so bad that people are talking about an "arms race" between addon/weak aura developers and Blizzard. Not sure how much more complex you can make it.
So what how can you "very clearly" do hard content without planning?
If you compare a +10 run with a heroic dungeon run in TBC (both hardest difficulty dungeons with rewards, respectively) there is not really a contest which requires more planning.

You're conflating two issues. A lot of players fail basic mechanics not because they have too many things to think about, but simply because they don't care about the mechanics, or think they're too good for them.

Players thinking they are too good for mechanics is certainly a take I've never heard before. Well they are just dead then. You can't ignore mechanics on a reasonably challenging level. I get that people don't understand why they have failed, and keep blaming others (pref. healers), but surely nobody thinks that they are better than mechanics that clearly wipe the group?

Others do fail them because there's too much going on, but in many cases the are major issues with how WoW is displaying/presenting those mechanics.

I also don't like how hard it is to see some mechanics, but here comes in the tactics, that you miss. If you know what the next ability of the boss will do, you can watch carefully/plan accordingly. It's not a reaction, it's pre planning.

Tactics you mean but sure - this has always been an issue to varying degrees in MMORPGs. Classes which require you to do more just to make them operate leave you with less ability to deal with positioning, using cooldowns intelligently and so on. WoW has made it worse and worse, expansion on expansion, and unfortunately shows no sign of wanting to do otherwise. Rotations got cleaned up a bit in terms of the numbers of buttons to press, but most have de facto become more complex because the precise ordering of ability use has been made more important, which frankly is not great design and does indeed push WoW in a sort of "rhythm game" direction.

But these are all points that actually facilitate having a plan. If you have enough time to make good decisions from moment to moment, you don't need a tactic.

I feel you are all over the place.
So rotations are not feeling complex, but frantic, but actually became more complex? So much so that you have difficulty to make decision on the fly. But you actually can do hard content without planning?
You say that you don't need planning for hard content, but right in the paragraph above you gave a pretty good reason why planning is needed.
Also now you are mentioning that there are ever increasingly, literally too many things to think about, so much so that it's a mess, even in a slow downed pace, but simultaneously the problem isn't that there are too many things to think about for players. Even though the rotation also got way more complex, to a point where intelligent CD usage is hard.

Also keep in mind that I'm trying to stay on topic. I'm not discussing here which new direction the game can take to get rid of problems, but if the direction it has taken was a good one. So I'm comparing everything with old WoW (before Wotlk/Cata maybe).

[FAILoZOFF]

Healing is in the worst state ive ever seen. it is absolutely terrible. Ive healed in every expansion since vanilla and cant find one I feel good on

what do you mean? Im asking cause I mostly heal and welllll, not impressed with what I have seen so far, then again, I have been away fro quite a bit

[Sicknex]

I agree completely. I am currently playing ret paladin in SoD and it is probably the best version of ret we have ever had. You have giga burst damage with the seal twist mechanic that lets you hit with both matyrdom (seal of blood) and seal of command. One hit and you can do 4 instances of damage. White hit, martyrdom, and command which proc martyrdom again. The satisfication you get from seeing these huge crits and numbers is hard to describe. But we can go deeper, if we proc windfury we do another white hit that also proc martyrdom and has a chance to proc command which can proc martyrdom again. Add hand of justice trinket (chance to get an extra attack) on top of this and you can do some disgusting burst damage. Between the seal twists you have your normal fillers like judgement, crusader strike, divine storm, exorcism, conc and hammer of wrath for execute damage. Honestly can't really find any negatives unless you hate seal twist, but then you have the option to go fast 2h and play exodin which is more like a holy damage paladin. You even have some degen techs like double judgement, stopattack macros on fillers to save extra hits so you don't reset swing timer, cancelaura macro for judgement etc. Probably harder to play properly than most retail specs, and it does not play like a ADHD spec with crazy apm. It's more of a rhythmic spec that requires timing and planning.


After playing retail for so long (skipped df and tww) and have played all classic expansions a bunch i can safely say that wotlk class design was peak in general. You had complicated specs like feral druid, affli lock and enhancement that would fit even retail players today. It also had more braindead specs closer to tbc/vanilla like assa rogue. SoD ret pala is a hybrid between Wotlk ret and tbc ret and it's the perfect mix.

[Doffen]

Personally I think PvE rotation wise, TWW is in a good spot. Lot more focus on splitting aoe and single target into two, streamlining many talent trees so its easier than in a long time to have a spec for each kind of content/boss. And thus removing some buttons depending what you talent into.

MM Hunter for instance you can go full single target rotation and use 4 abilities 90% of the time for the rotation, one big CD, one proc-affecting and one ability-replacing ability(Wailing Arrow=Aimed Shot) which makes it, for me, a lot more interesting as the rotation is both more simplistic, while also more varied. Its moving away more and more from "here, you going to have all abilities on your bars", to now changing out some buttons for single target and vica versa aoe.

If they manage to keep this and give more of that to more specs, I would personally be quite happy with it.

[Merpish]

I think of veteran players are just insanely washed, but are unwilling to come to terms with the fact that they just can't keep up with the game anymore. The game is not that much more complicated than Wrath.

[Thirtyrock]

I think of veteran players are just insanely washed, but are unwilling to come to terms with the fact that they just can't keep up with the game anymore. The game is not that much more complicated than Wrath.

This take boggles my mind. I love the current complexity and difficulty, to be clear. It is absolutely more complicated than wrath, this is true for both classes and raids.

[Zodiark]

this is the inevitable DDR-ification of WoW, it's a design flaw rooted deeply in the core of the entire structure of the game.
when WoW came out in 2004, it followed in the footsteps of everquest in a lot of ways, and one of those ways is that the gameplay side of things was designed around the social side of things.
IE, the pace of the game was slow and you only had a couple buttons for the explicit reason that you would be able to type and read and communicate during combat, because games like WoW and everquest were partially on the forefront of social communication on the internet back in the early 2000s.
WoW was mostly a game, but also partly a chat room and that was inherent to the entirety of how a user interacted with the client.

you can see the real shift in WoW's gameplay when ventrillo, discord, teamspeak, etc etc, started to become more of a thing - when the upper end guilds (who are the guilds that sign up for the PTR and test raids and thus are the measuring stick for devs) were using voice comms to communicate the inevitable happened... "make players hit moar buttons faster" was the obvious (and stupid) way to fill in that vacuum and ramp up "interactivity" in the game.

fast forward 15 years and here we are, where gameplay is now playing DDR with your fingers - DDR for your rotation, for movement and avoidance, for reading screen prompts... hell they even made fucking *traversal* into DDR.

anyways, i don't like it either.
i'm not saying go back to when every class had 5 buttons total and each of them had a 5s or higher cooldown, but IMO the fact that the core gameplay loop of combat has zero downtime at any point is annoying as hell.

Yeah I know. I was there during this time myself. I started in EverQuest. In 2004 or so I like to think that this was around the time social media in gaming and online communicating was in it's teenage years so to speak. It wasn't an infant anymore but hadn't fully developed yet. Once it grew up though, well this is where we are today. Everyone acts like WoW was some big revolution in online gaming and such but it really wasn't. It built itself on the heals of others before it. It's just that during the early years in the late 90's many of the people who WOULD go on to play WOW were a bit too young yet and the landscape hadn't yet evolved enough to be accessible to them. By the time WoW came out it was at a time when the iron was HOT. The younger generation of gamers who grew up with computers was finally old enough to play an MMORPG in the first place, and WOW made it accessible enough for them to do so!

Let's not forget that when WoW came out it was the EASY mmo. Most of the gamers who enjoyed WoW early on would have been very turned off had they played EverQuest during the early years, with no map, corpse decay if you didn't make it back to your body in time. Having to take literal hours walking blindly across a vast, mostly empty landscape that to get places you needed to take boats, traverse dangerous areas with mobs that could 1 shot you, etc just to finally get to a "camp" where pretty much the only thing to do was grind mobs for hours on end, or even days, working through a level bracket and "hell-levels", where the xp at certain break points was double or triple the previous level.

[Merpish]

This take boggles my mind. I love the current complexity and difficulty, to be clear. It is absolutely more complicated than wrath, this is true for both classes and raids.

It's not much more complicated than wrath. The vast majority of classes are builder-spenders with a select few that require serious buff and debuff micromanagement. Fury Warrior, BM Hunter, Ret Pally, Frost DK, and Destruction Warlock to name a few, are extremely simple specs to play at 80th percentile in heroic difficulty (the hardest difficulty most players aspire to.)

[Tech614]

The game is not that much more complicated than Wrath.

Why would you say something so false this confidently?

- - - Updated - - -

It's not much more complicated than wrath. The vast majority of classes are builder-spenders with a select few that require serious buff and debuff micromanagement. Fury Warrior, BM Hunter, Ret Pally, Frost DK, and Destruction Warlock to name a few, are extremely simple specs to play at 80th percentile in heroic difficulty (the hardest difficulty most players aspire to.)

Congrats you just named the easiest specs in the modern game yet all are still far more complicated today than shit like Arcane Mage or Destro lock or Survival Hunter or any DK spec was in Wrath rofl. And that's just dps do we want to talk about how dumbed down tanking and healing was in Wrath? Cause that's an even juicier comparison. No active mitigation damage sponge tanks with mindless rotations and healers just playing whack a mole with instant top offs on any heal.

[Thirtyrock]

Congrats you just named the easiest specs in the modern game yet all are still far more complicated today than shit like Arcane Mage or Destro lock or Survival Hunter or any DK spec was in Wrath rofl. And that's just dps do we want to talk about how dumbed down tanking and healing was in Wrath? Cause that's an even juicier comparison. No active mitigation damage sponge tanks with mindless rotations and healers just playing whack a mole with instant top offs on any heal.

I was a prot paladin during this time and my hands still remember the exact 969 rotation I used in Wrath as well as the 939 rotation I used in Cata. It wasn't just simple, it could be macro'd and you could down all content, though macroing stuff made it harder when the unexpected happens, like a butt pull.

[SilverLion]

I was a prot paladin during this time and my hands still remember the exact 969 rotation I used in Wrath as well as the 939 rotation I used in Cata. It wasn't just simple, it could be macro'd and you could down all content, though macroing stuff made it harder when the unexpected happens, like a butt pull.

I just unlocked the memory of Paladin tanks intentionally getting hunters to ass pull entire dungeons during patch 3.3, just to feel something. God I don't miss that.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

You know, there is a series of meme videos titled "Raiding in Retail vs Classic" with the sweaty gamer with the distraught face smashing keyboard buttons during a retail raid, then cuts to a classic raid of the dude singing Maroon 5, all cheerful with glee, pressing 1 button every 3 seconds.

To me that sums up the difference between modern gameplay versus classic gameplay: actions per minute.

And the nonstop action of dungeon/raid encounter mechanics to keep up with that double (or triple) your APM.

[Merpish]

Why would you say something so false this confidently?

- - - Updated - - -



Congrats you just named the easiest specs in the modern game yet all are still far more complicated today than shit like Arcane Mage or Destro lock or Survival Hunter or any DK spec was in Wrath rofl. And that's just dps do we want to talk about how dumbed down tanking and healing was in Wrath? Cause that's an even juicier comparison. No active mitigation damage sponge tanks with mindless rotations and healers just playing whack a mole with instant top offs on any heal.

Idk man, I've gotten Cutting Edge on several classes in the last 6 years, and also played a lot of Classic WoW through Cata. No doubt that most Retail classes are more mechanically involved than nearly everything on Classic, but I just don't think compared to Wrath the classes are actually that much more difficult.

Encounters are astronomically more difficult, but classes really aren't.

[Thirtyrock]

I just unlocked the memory of Paladin tanks intentionally getting hunters to ass pull entire dungeons during patch 3.3, just to feel something. God I don't miss that.

Running OOM after you outgeared things was fun. Nothing like having a harder time performing your job with better gear, lol