I don't really like "modern" class gameplay.

[nvaelz]

Blizzard is the company that states they don't want high numbers for D4 = but you do billions if not trillions of damage.
Blizzard is the company that designs Hearthstone BGs to be a cardgame about APM = MMR, which is really wierd.
Blizzard is the company that currently states that WoW will need spell pruning and numbers squashing but will take another 3-4 years until that happens.

What I dislike about modern WoW is that in comparison to old WoW where an ability had genuine impact, modern WoW has all its impact tied to rotations and procs, so you're supposed to figure out a priority list and a deeper level of rotation, which isn't horrible but it felt good pressing a fireblast that did damage because the spell had its own identity, not to proc another spell with or whatever.

Also incase most brainless people here can't see with their eyes, TWW is alot better than DF when it comes to spells having more immediate impact. TWW is a step in a good direction. DF was the worst expansion ever.

Also people say that the new modern WoW has more skill tied to it because it's a deeper more constant rotation. Which is true in its own way, but then let me ask you why you think a one button spec like Counter-Strike is so less skillful and why you're so bad at it. And why you can't connect the dots, it's because you're a single cell organism. Don't respond.

It's like playing Hearthstone BGs which in essence is a decision making, thinking fast type of game, but in reality the game is about buying/selling/rolling once per second for all your time to maximize stats, but if you have any sort of latency lagg or whatever you might have to alt+f4 during combat phases to have more shop time. It's so stupid that the game is about APM but Blizzard seem to think stupid things are good ideas.

[Gnomohawk]

I'm an arcane mage returning from a decade-long absence, and I'm overwhelmed with how many damn procs I have to keep track of.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I think of veteran players are just insanely washed, but are unwilling to come to terms with the fact that they just can't keep up with the game anymore. The game is not that much more complicated than Wrath.

Not much more complicated in the sense of knowing what to expect certain game play mechanics are going to do.

You see fire on the ground-- more than likely you move out of it.
You see a giant orb being shot in your direction-- more than likely you move out of its path.
You see an enemy target you and casts something-- you interrupt it.
You see the room fill with fire with 1 clear area-- you more than likely stack in it.
You see a targetable icon/health bar above an ally player that is stunning them-- you attack it and kill it.

And the list goes on and on. Many of these existed during WotLK. They still do exist today with a lot more to boot.

The game is simply faster paced than it was in WotLK and you do have veteran players who prefer that style.

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I'm an arcane mage returning from a decade-long absence, and I'm overwhelmed with how many damn procs I have to keep track of.

You're in luck. Arcane Mage saw a revamp to the spec. It's not nearly as bad (in terms of procs to watch, buttons to press, and sheer amount of set-up needed) than it was an expansion ago.

[Ereb]

which you would have got by raiding or m+ or world content. YOU DIDNT NEED TO DO.IT ALL. The grind was entirely your choice.

People literally got kicked out of their raid spots for not having enough AP to ''keep up'' with everybody else. Did you even play legion? lmao

The AP grind system was almost universally despised and Blizz themselves agreed since they admitted so when they announced that they did away with it at one blizzcon years ago.

[Merpish]

The game is simply faster paced than it was in WotLK and you do have veteran players who prefer that style.

The question I have though is what about the slow paced gameplay do people prefer? My interpretation is that people equate slower games with more time to react to things happening, which means that they are less likely to run into a fail state.

Why do people like Classic WoW gameplay? Is it really that they enjoy pressing Frostbolt exclusively until the boss dies, or is it because they just like being able to put in practically no effort and still defeating the hardest content the game has to offer. Because the truth is that Retail's easiest difficulties can be completed by pressing one button, the difference is that you aren't given the best rewards.

[Ereb]

The question I have though is what about the slow paced gameplay do people prefer?.

It's easier. I think it's basically that simple. People will give diff answers of this and that preference, but it always boils down to in the end that it's just easier for them. Believe it or not most people run from challenges and they very much prefer their game's "difficulty" to be as easy as possible

[Hitei]

I think modern class gameplay is superior, but I do wish that there were one or two specs that kept the old, slower style. I think there's an open design space for a very static caster spec that just chain casts <something>bolt over and over the entire encounter. I think not having that, or say, a DoT class that truly just focuses on keeping up 2-3 long duration dots for its damage is missing an enjoyable playstyle.

[SilverLion]

It's easier. I think it's basically that simple. People will give diff answers of this and that preference, but it always boils down to in the end that it's just easier for them. Believe it or not most people run from challenges and they very much prefer their game's "difficulty" to be as easy as possible

I'd say it's less about challenge and more about digestability. I think people get overwhelmed and would rather just focus on either doing DPS or doing mechanics. Trying to weave through both is overwhelming for some.

[Ereb]

I'd say it's less about challenge and more about digestability. I think people get overwhelmed and would rather just focus on either doing DPS or doing mechanics. Trying to weave through both is overwhelming for some.

So, easier...like I said :P

[Tech614]

People literally got kicked out of their raid spots for not having enough AP to ''keep up'' with everybody else. Did you even play legion? lmao

The AP grind system was almost universally despised and Blizz themselves agreed since they admitted so when they announced that they did away with it at one blizzcon years ago.

AP was bad, but bad because it was a chore not because it was a grind.

Overly grinding AP would barely give you 1% gains over someone that just did their main sources for the week. Still dogshit cause it was a required chore, but common myth about it being a grind.

[Ereb]

AP was bad, but bad because it was a chore not because it was a grind.

Overly grinding AP would barely give you 1% gains over someone that just did their main sources for the week. Still dogshit cause it was a required chore, but common myth about it being a grind.

I mean spamming maw of souls for hours does sound like a grind to me, idk about you.

[Tech614]

I mean spamming maw of souls for hours does sound like a grind to me, idk about you.

You just have no clue what you're talking about then?

We got CE every tier in legion, and it was at the same time most of the guild where becoming or already adults with responsibilities. There was nobody in the guild spamming Maw +2s. This is some made up bullshit in your own head that it was required. You did your main weekly shit and WQs that gave the large chunks of AP and the catchup mechanic kept your power high, people that overly grinded where literally playing excessive hours for miniscule power gains.

[Merpish]

It's easier. I think it's basically that simple. People will give diff answers of this and that preference, but it always boils down to in the end that it's just easier for them. Believe it or not most people run from challenges and they very much prefer their game's "difficulty" to be as easy as possible

Exactly. I just don't understand why so many people feel like there is some stigma around just admitting that they are looking for an easy game. Is it because they feel shame? That they feel lesser? Wanting something to be easy is fine, but at least be honest about it rather than trying to come up with all these veiled excuses and suggestions on how to make Retail "better" when what they really want is to be able to show up to raid, having done nothing to prepare, press the same button a few hundred times, and then walk away with the best stuff.

[SilverLion]

So, easier...like I said :P

I don't agree that that's easier perse. I think that's a matter of preference. I wouldn't call Savage Raiding easier, even if class design in 14 doesn't require you to make different builds per fight.

[Ereb]

You just have no clue what you're talking about then?

We got CE every tier in legion, and it was at the same time most of the guild where becoming or already adults with responsibilities. There was nobody in the guild spamming Maw +2s. This is some made up bullshit in your own head that it was required. You did your main weekly shit and WQs that gave the large chunks of AP and the catchup mechanic kept your power high, people that overly grinded where literally playing excessive hours for miniscule power gains.

Sure guy your personal experience is the exact same as every other of the millions of players lol. Absolutely nobody grinding maw of souls at all during legion. Nope nobody. The ego is unreal lmao

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Exactly. I just don't understand why so many people feel like there is some stigma around just admitting that they are looking for an easy game.

Exactly. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting an easier game. Video games are about having fun and somewhere along the way so many people forgot about that.

[BeepBoo]

fast forward 15 years and here we are, where gameplay is now playing DDR with your fingers - DDR for your rotation, for movement and avoidance, for reading screen prompts... hell they even made fucking *traversal* into DDR.

The irony is that I've said since WOTLK wow was hotkey DDR and that's what makes it my favorite combat system. I like having to actively manage a large array of abilities to prove I'm good at the game, and I like the fact that, in the times of wow's history where the APMs were up over 100 (my favorite iteration of ret outside of WOTLK was honestly legion during nighthold where haste was BAMF and you could hit a whopping 160 APMs), you start to see a connection to physicality and twitch reaction akin to physical sports.

What I'm saying is, wow has been like this for a long time, it's one of the defining characteristics of its now VERY unique gameplay, and I love it. Early BFA where they intentionally dialed back the APMs of all classes to around 40-60 was trash. Going LESS than that would be horrendous for skill expression.

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But whatever, that's the game now and they're not going to change for me. I don't understand why people love it so much because it really just becomes spammy.

The more spammy and reactive combat is, the higher twitch and muscle skill you need (meaning the more it's like a physical sport vs a mental game). I like that. You can't learn reaction speed and changing your natural twitch reactions takes a LOT of effort. Conversely, you can nearly always learn the mental side of things if you're any type of intelligent because those aspects are akin to science where there's a right and wrong answer. It's the difference between unlimited time chess and speed chess. The faster people need to do things, the more they fuck up, and the higher the skill disparity can be.

I'm not saying they NEED to have a mode that requires you to be a 95th percentile parser, just that I'd like if a 95th percentile parser is always trouncing an "average" (read: bad) player.

Exactly. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting an easier game. Video games are about having fun and somewhere along the way so many people forgot about that.

More like what defines fun is different for people. Personally, ever since golden eye and mario kart 64 days, I've been ultra-competitive and beating people at... literally anything... has been the core part of both my life enjoyment and my identity/personality. To that end, any game that allows me to big dick swing over other players by virtue of the fact that the gap in performance between a bad player, average player, and good player is the grand canyon, is more fun.

Wow just happens to offer a very unique and appealing style of competitive cooperation. I get to beat my friends while that coincidentally also helps everyone out by making it more likely we beat the fight-in-question.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I don't get this, was classic mode wanted partially because it was a simpler time? That currently exists and is playable.

[Eurhetemec]

No, I really don't understand what you mean.

Amazing that you continued for paragraph after paragraph after paragraph after admitting this. All you then did was prove a lack of comprehension or even attempted comprehension. That's not "staying on topic".

Players thinking they are too good for mechanics is certainly a take I've never heard before. Well they are just dead then. You can't ignore mechanics on a reasonably challenging level. I get that people don't understand why they have failed, and keep blaming others (pref. healers), but surely nobody thinks that they are better than mechanics that clearly wipe the group?

...

Do you actually play WoW? Yes, absolutely there are a huge number of players who think they are too good for mechanics, and aren't interested in learning/obeying them. They tend to play DPS and then blame the healer and/or tank. That you've claiming to have never seen this really supports my "you literally don't understand what you're talking about" point.

I feel you are all over the place.
So rotations are not feeling complex, but frantic, but actually became more complex? So much so that you have difficulty to make decision on the fly. But you actually can do hard content without planning?

With respect, I'm wondering if this is an language gap problem. Like, you're using "planning" to mean stuff that, in English, absolutely is not "planning". It's practice or learning or the like. You're also dismissing "tactics" and using the word "strategy" and they're not interchangeable words. It really seems like there's an issue linguistically here - I've encountered this before who learned English in Scandinavia and Germany particularly, where they speak superb English in terms of vocabulary and grammar, but have some very odd and narrow ideas about what words mean, which clash hard with actual English as spoken in the UK/US/Canada/Australia/NZ.

You say that you don't need planning for hard content, but right in the paragraph above you gave a pretty good reason why planning is needed.

Nope lol not in English.

[Triceron]

I'm a lot more oldschool in that I don't really like the generator-spender gameplay that modern Blizzard action games seems to be built around. This includes the Diablo series, and I much preferred the D2 style of gameplay. Gameplay that has evolved in different directions where making sure you're hitting the enemies is what matters most, not managing your buffs and resources through other attacks.

Sure, there are more buttons to press and stuff to do, but it's filler. I liked WoW combat when maintaining buffs was as complex as it got. The complexity of Feral in Wrath is as deep as I'd want combat to be. The rest was all in how you built your character, and making sure you were talented and geared enough to hit the right thresholds.



And I'll say straight up, gearing was much more fun to mess around with before addons like Mr. Robot. It's an aspect of gameplay that I think is missing today. I'd opt for something like Monster Hunter style gearing, where you can get a Bonus trait if you meet the threshold. Different types of gear offer different mixes of bonuses. You wouldn't be able to build on every bonus. And like Diablo 2's gear system, higher rarity/ilvl might offer higher Bonus stats, but also offer fewer number of bonuses. Some lower ilvl stuff might have more bonuses that you could 'craft' up to be stronger, allowing someone to be creative and bank on bonuses if they can't obtain high ILVL gear. This makes gear less homogenized.

Allow certain bonuses to be handicaps for lower-skilled players or practical for convenience. Lower tier Gear bonuses that increases mana pools and mana generation in combat, or bonuses that increase damage vs World and Trash mobs. Higher valued 'Increased survivability vs Bosses' or 'CC works on Bosses' bonuses would be harder to obtain and more sought-after by raiders, potentially trading out raw damage or survivability for more interrupts. Needing to reach a threshold to activate the bonus makes gearing choices much more critical. And certain bonus thresholds could be temporarily met through consumables, giving professions something new to craft and make money on. If you're 5 points shy from a certain bonus and you don't want to swap gear, you could stock up on a bunch of consumable elixirs or enchantments to make up the difference, at the cost of it being temporary and lost on death.

[SilverLion]

I'm a lot more oldschool in that I don't really like the generator-spender gameplay that modern Blizzard action games seems to be built around. This includes the Diablo series, and I much preferred the D2 style of gameplay. Gameplay that has evolved in different directions where making sure you're hitting the enemies is what matters most, not managing your buffs and resources through other attacks.

Sure, there are more buttons to press and stuff to do, but it's filler. I liked WoW combat when maintaining buffs was as complex as it got. The complexity of Feral in Wrath is as deep as I'd want combat to be. The rest was all in how you built your character, and making sure you were talented and geared enough to hit the right thresholds.



And I'll say straight up, gearing was much more fun to mess around with before addons like Mr. Robot. It's an aspect of gameplay that I think is missing today. I'd opt for something like Monster Hunter style gearing, where you need to get certain gear-stats to obtain a bonus, and having different pieces of gear offer different bonuses. You wouldn't be able to build on every bonus, and higher ilvl gear might not guarantee high bonuses while some lower ilvl stuff might have more bonuses that you could 'craft' up to be stronger. Make gear less homogenized.

Allow certain bonuses to be handicaps for lower-skilled players or practical for convenience, like lower tier Gear bonuses that increase damage vs Trash mobs that are easy to obtain, while higher valued 'increase damage vs Bosses' bonuses are harder to obtain and more sought-after by raiders. And it wouldn't be a flat bonus, you would need to reach a threshold to activate the bonus, making gearing choices much more critical. Do you trade off your new piece and break your bonus, or do you find other areas to compensate? And certain bonus thresholds could be met through consumables, giving professions something new to craft and make money on. If you're 5 points shy from a certain bonus and you don't want to swap gear, you could stock up on a bunch of consumable elixirs or enchantments to make up the difference, at the cost of it being temporary and lost on death.

I respect this opinion even if I don't share it. I'm a monster hunter vet so that I can comment on: Monster Hunter has some of the worst gearing in the space for mid tier players. Casuals can sort of wear whatever, but since there's basically very little explanation on what your skills do, you're stuck being told what the high level players wear. And build crafting is almost exclusively something people who play a lot do, and it's way way way easier to gimp yourself.

Like it's "taking bad talents in Classic" levels of gimp. MH6 stands to fix a lot of this by moving where the skills are located from armor pieces from, but as it stands now, the real "freedom" in Monster Hunter is in charms and decorations. Basically to your point, if you want customization in gearing and build crafting back in WoW, you'd need to just make gemming interesting. Because that's how MH just dodges it's shitty gearing problem.