Is tank NPC in solo dungeons so bad intentionally?

[Segus1992]

When I am tanking on an alt I do brisk and speedy pulls, and every other dungeon there still is someone pulling more. Not in m+ but random matchmaking dungeons. No matter how fast you pull, it will not be enough for a certain kind of player.

If you get someone pulling for you that often, you're definitely the problem. I don't even remember the last time a DPS pulled for me without me wanting them to.

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You are objectively wrong, because:



This will always happen. So it's not a matter of getting with the times or being old. As a result, "you pull it, you tank it" is still a valid way of doing things.

Nope, neither is true. I've tanked for at least a decade at this point, and have played with both good and bad tanks, and only the bad tanks would agree with you.

[Throwme]

I don't even remember the last time a DPS pulled for me without me wanting them to.

So let's say you and I end up in a group together. You're tanking, I'm dps. You'll be perfectly fine with me running full speed, mass pulling everything, because you're just going to pick it up and there's not a snowballs chance in hell we're gonna die, because you don't even need a healer to keep you alive when the entire instance comes running at you? It kinda sounds like that's what you're saying.

Oh, and, in this hypothetical scenario, I'm hunter with a no-cooldown Misdirection and Barrage, just so it's technically possible to gather everything up easily.

You'll be fine with that, right?

[Segus1992]

So let's say you and I end up in a group together. You're tanking, I'm dps. You'll be perfectly fine with me running full speed, mass pulling everything, because you're just going to pick it up and there's not a snowballs chance in hell we're gonna die, because you don't even need a healer to keep you alive when the entire instance comes running at you? It kinda sounds like that's what you're saying.

Oh, and, in this hypothetical scenario, I'm hunter with a no-cooldown Misdirection and Barrage, just so it's technically possible to gather everything up easily.

You'll be fine with that, right?

If you pull so much that we end up dying because of it even though I did my best to handle it, I'll give you one chance to learn, if you don't one of us is out.

A DPS that pulls so much that it causes a wipe that also doesn't learn from it is exceedingly rare, I don't think I've seen that for years without some kind of argument causing it.

[Throwme]

If you pull so much that we end up dying because of it even though I did my best to handle it, I'll give you one chance to learn, if you don't one of us is out.

And now we get to why "you pull it, you tank it" has become a thing. And still is a thing. And should remain a thing. I'm not taking a deserter buff because some nab doesn't like my tanking pace. The nab can die. And as evident by the many cases where the healer is totally on board with it, it's clear that I'm not in the wrong for doing so. You may disagree, that's fine. But you do you.

[Malkiah]

It's just incredibly egotistical to force your hesitant, uncomfortable, slow-ass tanking on 4 other players who probably expected a decent tank, at the same time expecting them to behave however you want them to.

so on the flip side of that, how is it NOT incredibly egotistical to force your twitchy, ADHD addled, compensating-for-your-lack-of-genitals dpsing on a tank who probably expected a reasonable group that didn't push them unnecessarily?

[Segus1992]

And now we get to why "you pull it, you tank it" has become a thing. And still is a thing. And should remain a thing. I'm not taking a deserter buff because some nab doesn't like my tanking pace. The nab can die. And as evident by the many cases where the healer is totally on board with it, it's clear that I'm not in the wrong for doing so. You may disagree, that's fine. But you do you.

Right, I was just saying this is the kind of tank nobody likes, and you're just being a whiny bitch because your ego is inflated over playing the easiest role. The days of tanking being hard and warranting this kind of attitude is almost two decades old.

[Malkiah]

Right, I was just saying this is the kind of tank nobody likes, and you're just being a whiny bitch because your ego is inflated over playing the easiest role. The days of tanking being hard and warranting this kind of attitude is almost two decades old.

i have to wonder about the accuracy of this statement.
myself, i do not question the pace that a person playing a tank feels comfortable with - if they're going zoomzoom in a way i find inappropriate, i keep up with them. if they're going slower than i think the group can manage, i hang back with them.

a little too slow or a little too fast doesn't matter to me either way, and i think that pulling 1 mob at a time for the entirety of an M+ run is no worse than double pulling a pack the group can't handle and wiping - i don't see either of those scenarios are any worse than the other.

so i wonder is that really a tank nobody likes? or is that a tank you don't like?
i legit don't know which one of us has the more broadly represented viewpoint so i'm not saying your subjectivity is wrong in the face of my subjectivity, just offering a different perspective and wondering which is more prevalent.
shame we have no way of ever really knowing the answer to that.

[Thirtyrock]

Are we certain the AI doesn't tune itself to match the player?

I don't think you could purposefully design AI to be as bad as it needs to be to match the player in question :P

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Look dude, I'm one of the most left-leaning people on this website but I simply don't find offense with the "r slur." Perhaps I have a bit of a blind spot because I've been on the spectrum since before "on the spectrum" was a common phrase and I've never found the word offensive even when it was directed towards me.

And yeah, if the Mod team would prefer we simply didn't use the word then that's fine with me. Just my 2c. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'll back you up on this. You are consistently one of the most reasonable posters on here. Even when you're fed up, normally you just exit the conversation after calmly explaining WHY you don't see a point in continuing.

I agree with the removal of the R word we're discussing, because of the reasons other people shared. Anyone who's been around for a while knows (or at least should know) YOU are not someone to lightly throw around potentially inflammatory words, much less actual slurs.

You not seeing an issue with that word in particular doesn't negate your consistent respectful communication OR the issues raised by those who do find the word problematic.

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It's time to get with the times, old man. This is the kind of tank that nobody likes - if people are pulling for you it's because you're pulling too slowly. The days when tanks needed initial aggro to be able to hold it are long gone, and acting this way just means you're a spoiled whiner at this point.

Assuming reasonably difficult content...If you're not keeping track of my cooldowns and you pull for me, you are the most likely reason we're about to wipe. If I'm pulling too slowly for you, there's likely a reason. My comfort level with the dungeon, my comfort level with my healer, my available CDs, both offensive and defensive, and all sorts of things.

I rarely see DPS just decide to pull because the tank is going too slowly end well.

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IDK if it's the forum or yourself you're trying to bullshit here, but assuming that whoever pulls ahead of you in an M+ run is "good with tanking stuff themselves" is being willfully ignorant at best and just very dense at worst. Either way, it's in no way conducive to successfully completing a run, and very clearly just a petty ego trip.
Sure, you can still be learning, finding your limits, whatever, but in a multiplayer game the reality is that not every random person you come across will do exactly what you want and how you want it, so you either adapt or be OK with getting kicked/flamed.
It's just incredibly egotistical to force your hesitant, uncomfortable, slow-ass tanking on 4 other players who probably expected a decent tank, at the same time expecting them to behave however you want them to. OTOH, if you're learning, you should take randoms pulling as an exercise in getting aggro quickly, because accidental pulls happen ALL_THE_TIME, even in organized groups. Picking up adds is also a skill you need.
Or, to completely avoid this, you'd ideally do dungeons with a group of friends if you're 100% uncomfortable with random shit happening and are still uncomfortable with tanking.


All in all, obviously DPS shouldn't pull ahead of the tank, but leaving a couple to die and running ahead to pull another pack alone or with the healer (potentially still getting the previous pack with them because the healer probably got in combat via healing the guy who pulled) is also an objectively terrible play, regardless of whether you're in the right or not.
The best you can do to everyone involved is to get over yourself, pick up the packs, finish the run, then optionally flame the guys who were pulling just for good measure & finally put them on ignore and move on.

(Admittedly I'm assuming here that this whole scenario is happening in M+. I'm sorry if it doesn't, but I didn't want to think that you're in completely faceroll, mostly soloable content, bickering over absolute nonsense that doesn't even matter in the slightest. If anything, that'd be an even worse look.)

TL;DR: Sure, pulling ahead is bad. So is not picking up ninjapulls. Get over yourselves.

While I largely agree and would at least attempt to tank packs pulled by my group, I'd also expect the run to fall apart more often in those situations. It's one thing when it's accidental...you can normally recover from those. But when a DPS is just doing whatever, that's a run that is going to fail and it won't be the hesitant tank's fault.

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If you get someone pulling for you that often, you're definitely the problem. I don't even remember the last time a DPS pulled for me without me wanting them to.

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Nope, neither is true. I've tanked for at least a decade at this point, and have played with both good and bad tanks, and only the bad tanks would agree with you.

I saw it happen in a Stonevault 8ish this past weekend. Some DPS didn't realize how the totems before the final boss could get out of hand and casually ran into the final room and pulled both groups in there while we were still killing the final pack before the room. So instead of 2 totem casters we ended up with 6...it went poorly.

They'd been bitching about the tank the whole time.

We could have timed the key if they hadn't done that...

I don't know if I'm a good tank or not, but I tank my raid group through like 5 or 6 mythic bosses each season. If someone deliberately pulls ahead of me, after I've asked them to stop, they get to die while I struggle to pick up the crap they pulled. Again, accidents =/= deliberate extra pulling.

[Raidoser]

Right, I was just saying this is the kind of tank nobody likes, and you're just being a whiny bitch because your ego is inflated over playing the easiest role. The days of tanking being hard and warranting this kind of attitude is almost two decades old.

You're the kind of human nobody like, it's even hard to call you a human after reading you, you've just described yourself btw.

When in RANDOM pug you get random people (crazy) you don't like randomness ? make you own group (the same argument simpleton like you use to shit on people when they complain about PUG) with the conditions you like, that's basic logic but being an humanimal make it hard to think logically for you it seem.

No wonders people avoid group content like the plague... don't be surprised when group content die out because you preferered to act like a spoiled brat instead of a human being with others based on your weird selfish perception.

[Throwme]

Right, I was just saying this is the kind of tank nobody likes, and you're just being a whiny bitch

And again, you are objectively wrong, on both parts here, as you can see by the other replies to you between your post and mine. But I guess in your little fantasy world, everyone that doesn't follow your rules and fills your needs and wants in a way that suits you, is bad. So again, you do you.

[LanToaster]

i legit don't know which one of us has the more broadly represented viewpoint so i'm not saying your subjectivity is wrong in the face of my subjectivity, just offering a different perspective and wondering which is more prevalent.

As DPS/Heal I like all Tanks that get us through the Dungeon without unneccessary Stress.
As Tank I try to get the Group through the Dungeon without unneccessary Stress, that means I try to assess what the group is capable of (In Terms of Pugs, going with Friends you obviously know what they can Handle), and pull accordingly. If I see on the first Pull that the Group cannot Manage multiple targets that need to be Interrupted, I wont pull those. And if a DPS thinks he knows better, we can Wipe once or twice, and if they keep producing unneccessary Stress, they can look for a different Tank, that matches their playstyle better.

Call me bad as much as you want. But you usually dont need to pull 2-3 Packs to Time a Dungeon if you dont wipe to Stupid stuff.

[Hellfury]

Tbh since Blizzard had the awsome idea to add dungeons out of the Rotation into the weekly rep quest I found myself doing some follower dungeons as it goes faster than doing a normal with bad ppl. And was surprised with the AI, yeh the tank is sometimes slow but you can pull yourself and the tank can generally hold aggro on trash. On bosses you can pull aggro easly with poping all CDs but using a defensive is enough until the tank regains threat on it.

[Byleth]

When I am tanking on an alt I do brisk and speedy pulls, and every other dungeon there still is someone pulling more. Not in m+ but random matchmaking dungeons. No matter how fast you pull, it will not be enough for a certain kind of player.

Exactly, you give them an inch, they take a thousand miles.

[Segus1992]

You're the kind of human nobody like, it's even hard to call you a human after reading you, you've just described yourself btw.

When in RANDOM pug you get random people (crazy) you don't like randomness ? make you own group (the same argument simpleton like you use to shit on people when they complain about PUG) with the conditions you like, that's basic logic but being an humanimal make it hard to think logically for you it seem.

No wonders people avoid group content like the plague... don't be surprised when group content die out because you preferered to act like a spoiled brat instead of a human being with others based on your weird selfish perception.

Haha, if you're afraid of other people's opinions, don't engage in forums or online games at all. Is the problem that I said tanking is the easiest role? Or that I'm fine with people pulling more if the group can handle it? Or is it that I don't like tanks acting like they're the group leader when they're the least experienced in the group? Obviously don't pull more than the group can handle and don't be obnoxious about it.

And again, you are objectively wrong, on both parts here, as you can see by the other replies to you between your post and mine. But I guess in your little fantasy world, everyone that doesn't follow your rules and fills your needs and wants in a way that suits you, is bad. So again, you do you.

You might be confused about what objectively means. Either way you're clearly using me as a stand-in for someone who wronged you in the past so I'll just leave it be.

[Echeyakee]

so on the flip side of that, how is it NOT incredibly egotistical to force your twitchy, ADHD addled, compensating-for-your-lack-of-genitals dpsing on a tank who probably expected a reasonable group that didn't push them unnecessarily?

Yeah, it's called a social contract, where we can compromise and find a workable middle ground, instead of oscillating between two extremes to produce a lot of friction and no meaningful work.

Ironically, it seems that this discussion has moved past follower dungeon ai, and is now fully focused on human behavior.

[Throwme]

You might be confused about what objectively means. Either way you're clearly using me as a stand-in for someone who wronged you in the past so I'll just leave it be.

Objectively means that I do not bring in my own feelings or opinions when I say that you are wrong. You have been proven wrong, it's as simple as that. If I weren't saying that objectively, I would say something along the lines of "I believe you are wrong" or whatever. But it doesn't matter what I think or feel in this case. You are wrong when you say nobody likes it.

I have no clue who would have wronged me in the past. All I know is that you took offense to how I tank and decided to insult me, despite being proven wrong and being told you are wrong by several people. You say

If you pull so much that we end up dying because of it even though I did my best to handle it, I'll give you one chance to learn, if you don't one of us is out.

and

Obviously don't pull more than the group can handle and don't be obnoxious about it.

but at the same time you also want me to pull more than the group can handle and not let those that pull more than the group can handle die. That leads me to believe you are nothing more than an attentionseeker that think it's fun to wind someone up for your own amusement. You have not convinced me that your opinions matters more than mine, that your opinions are more right than mine. And I believe, being totally subjective here, that you genuinely can't argue your case. Because you contradict yourself and you know it's making you look bad.