M 2 - 6 feels like Bronze in league

[kaelix1]

Think what is the most common denominator in your groups and try to see what that common denominator can do to improve, there is no ello hell in M+, just lack of skills aka gedgud

[Hotmail]

Buy M+ coaching lessons, I heard they're on sale this time of the year.

[Velshin]

That is literally the point of this post, the problem was my key was a 2 and I had to get it to a 7, which I assumed would be a very easy task but I found myself depeleting several 5/6s and really struggling to get it to a 7 because there's no point doing anything below a 7 and that means the only people that sign for keys below a 7 are people who don't have hands.

It's an entire section of content your required to do with a group, but is also completely redundant so nobody does it. I've got through it now, and I have now timed 3 9s. All 3 9s were easier than timing a 4. Which is just crazy.

Dont do your key. Half of the players who are doing m+ not doing their on keys and just join others.

[Mojo03]

I seem to always get 1 person in every M+ pug I join that comes off like they're watching Andrew Tate videos on a 2nd monitor.

I'm done this season. It's especially awful out there in pug world for whatever reason this expac.

[Velshin]

I seem to always get 1 person in every M+ pug I join that comes off like they're watching Andrew Tate videos on a 2nd monitor.

I'm done this season. It's especially awful out there in pug world for whatever reason this expac.

Why are we pretending like this is the first time this happening? Pugs always been horrible. Out of 10 random pugs group you find 1 or 2 decent ones. It is always been like that for many many years. Why are we pretending this is a surprise?

[AtomR]

It has ALWAYS been this way tbh, ever since M+ was added to the game. Back then a +10-11 used to be way harder than a +15.

I generally agree with you that it sucks, but just like elo hell in LOL and other games, it is actually possible to escape it. It's just a little harder than it should be, but not impossible or perma stuck.

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It's just poor coordination of CD's (or a lack of it) I'd say. I have seen it both ways, since I have recently started playing a tank alt. I can pull and deal with an entire corridor, but only if I and the healer have all our CD's up. However after that I can ofc just pull normally, but some DPS who don't know will pull extra mobs for me, because they saw us deal with more boss just before.

Except tanks just assume that that frenetic playstyle where you don't stop is how everyone wants to play the game. Tanks play wow as if they would rather be doing anything other than playing so they can't wait to get out of dungeons. They should just chill the fuck out and relax because we have time to finish the dungeon.

[RobertMugabe]

Except tanks just assume that that frenetic playstyle where you don't stop is how everyone wants to play the game. Tanks play wow as if they would rather be doing anything other than playing so they can't wait to get out of dungeons. They should just chill the fuck out and relax because we have time to finish the dungeon.

Most people would argue that it's the opposite way; you'll see people complaining about the gogo mentality of DPS. Again, I have it seen it both ways and I am maining a mw monk...

Like, stop whining?

[Alroxas]

...what? sure it does, wtf are you on...

Or rather anything below a +7 does not reward any thing better than loot from a bountiful T8 Delve.

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why do you bother with +5 or below ? just do 8+ delves imo, no stress on you and it proves if you have skill or not in a controlled environment.

Except delves don't give you practical experience in M+. You can afford to wait for all your CDs in delves. You can't do that in M+. Also this causes a lot of players to enter M+ at a higher dungeon difficulty (partially due to their gear) but with a much weaker knowledge of the dungeon and its mechanics.

Which means an overall decrease in quality of players in M+ as a whole. Lower M+ keys do serve a purpose to teach players how to do certain mechanics.

For example, I had a PuG get demolished by Void Speaker Eirich because players didn't know how to remove the Void Corruption debuff. They kept blaming the healer until the healer and I both linked the mechanic from the dungeon journal.

[Ereb]

Is finding a guild really so hard for some of you? Or at the very least stop inviting window lickers to your groups

[Alroxas]

I have always suggested that they should honestly just give us LFD for mythic keys, like why not? People can still make manual groups if they want.

Because it really wouldn't work. What healer (or tank) would want to dip into LFD where they have no control over the kind of group they might get? Sure DPS will sign up all day and they'll be waiting all day for a tank or healer to sign up.

Sure you could try to incentivize rewards like they do in LFD/LFR but a satchel of augment runes isn't going to move the needle. Especially when you ONLY get those rewards IF you finish the run.

And in a bad group, do you really think healers/tanks will want to spend hours in there?

Moreover, a LFD system would mean there could have a "deserter" penalty that some had argued for but guess what? That just leads to degenerative gameplay. Bob thinks the group is bad and wants to leave without the punishment. So Bob just starts playing poorly but "accidentally" body pulling extra packs, dying because he "forgot" to move out of bad, wastes party resources "brez/lust" to contribute towards the additional failures of the run. Do you really want to spend 30+ minutes with Bob?

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Personally i think what they should do is keep mobs hard but remove punishment for failure at low keys - this way people can learn in a save environment.

What punishment is there for failure at low keys? Or any key for that matter. You still get a end of dungeon chest which means someone in the party will get some loot. You also still get credit towards great vault, so there's a bad luck protection there as well.

Yes, the key doesn't increase but if you couldn't time a +X, then you're not likely going to time a higher key. A lower key at the minimum should be timable which would put you back at +X to try again (hopefully in another dungeon).

Sure players can bail on a key that isn't going to be timed but that's a social issue that the party leader failed to address. Are the goals of each party member the same or is Dan over there only here for score (and anything less is a no-go for Dan)? Maybe the party leader should have checked to see if completion in a reasonable amount of time is ok with everyone before starting and replace players who object to that goal.

[Ereb]

Sure players can bail on a key that isn't going to be timed but that's a social issue that the party leader failed to address. Are the goals of each party member the same or is Dan over there only here for score (and anything less is a no-go for Dan)? Maybe the party leader should have checked to see if completion in a reasonable amount of time is ok with everyone before starting and replace players who object to that goal.

Imagine having to talk to other players to complete group content

[Alroxas]

They should just chill the fuck out and relax because we have time to finish the dungeon.

I feel like Challenger's Peril affix was basically Blizzard's way to say that to tanks and DPS with the GoGo mentality. Sure you can pull big but IF you wipe, it's going to cost you a LOT of time to the point where you've basically bricked the key because of your overeagerness.

And unless you're trying to +2/+3 a key, there's usually enough time to go at a slower but steady pace.

[Huntermyth]

Except delves don't give you practical experience in M+. You can afford to wait for all your CDs in delves. You can't do that in M+. Also this causes a lot of players to enter M+ at a higher dungeon difficulty (partially due to their gear) but with a much weaker knowledge of the dungeon and its mechanics.

Which means an overall decrease in quality of players in M+ as a whole. Lower M+ keys do serve a purpose to teach players how to do certain mechanics.

For example, I had a PuG get demolished by Void Speaker Eirich because players didn't know how to remove the Void Corruption debuff. They kept blaming the healer until the healer and I both linked the mechanic from the dungeon journal.

honey i don't know what you're on about but if you try to understand what i literally meant, i mean, '' DON'T BOTHER WITH M+ '' which means that i suggest people to run delves instead of m+

sure, people may do as you witnessed but it is irrelevant to what i said. i condemn this season's m+ even tho i got my looks-like-shit mount in a few days and i'm glad that i don't need to run any m+, at least this season.

[Mojo03]

Why are we pretending like this is the first time this happening? Pugs always been horrible. Out of 10 random pugs group you find 1 or 2 decent ones. It is always been like that for many many years. Why are we pretending this is a surprise?

I'm saying anecdotally it feels "especially" egregious this season for whatever reason

Over the top toxic/dumb/overly serious players has been more abundant than average this season in my experience

[Velshin]

I'm saying anecdotally it feels "especially" egregious this season for whatever reason

Over the top toxic/dumb/overly serious players has been more abundant than average this season in my experience

And I am telling you its always been like this for many years now. Unless you are new to the game?

[Alroxas]

I'm saying anecdotally it feels "especially" egregious this season for whatever reason

Over the top toxic/dumb/overly serious players has been more abundant than average this season in my experience

Well there are several contributing factors.

First, the removal of fortifed vs tyrannical weeks means that players in TWW S1 have gained score faster than before. This isn't a horrible thing but it does shorten the period where players are "learning" dungeons to an acceptable level before tackling the higher difficulties.

Second, because of Delves (or rather loot from Delves) players are entering M+ at higher keystones without the depth of knowledge/experience for these dungeons. This bring a lot of inexperienced players or "bad" players relative to players who did take the time to learn the mechanics.

Third, the community has a lot of entitlement going around. I've had a few interactions with players who REFUSE to do lower M+ keystones (or even M0s) to understand/learn the dungeon on their own time and insist on doing higher keys without the knowledge/experience.

Fourth, as player reach the end of gear progression (i.e. +10s), you'll see the good players either exit M+ (they are effectively done) or become even more restrictive in who they bring in for PuGs. Meanwhile those "bad" players slowly creep up to doing keys that they don't have the knowledge/experience/skill to do. In short, the chance of getting "bad" players is higher so the overall experience in M+ goes down faster.

[AtomR]

Most people would argue that it's the opposite way; you'll see people complaining about the gogo mentality of DPS. Again, I have it seen it both ways and I am maining a mw monk...

Like, stop whining?

Oh yeah, shut up and heal. I'm not your maid to pick up after you. You're gonna die.