Vessel of Hatred (D4 first DLC)

[Biomega]

The story was kinda shit. Anytime Mephisto was directly involved it was cool, all the rest of the time it was a boring drag that felt like busywork without any coherent direction or compelling characters. Nothing made me care about Eru, the spirits, or Akarat - it was all just plopped down and decreed to be of import, without actually organically developing that importance through the narrative. In fact the entire premise felt artificial. Why did Neyrelle go to Nahantu? What was her plan? The whole idea of leaving the stone with Akarat was something we came up with after following Neyrelle - but why was Neyrelle going there to begin with? Mephisto cleverly manipulating her into bringing him to Akarat? That's such a reach. And it's not how you write "clever manipulation". Clever doesn't mean just going "haha, but you see, it was my plan all along!" after a string of plot coincidences. That's the laziest of lazy writing, and a clear sign that the writers are suffering from characters-can-only-be-as-smart-as-their-writers limitations.

I don't particularly mind the cliffhanger ending if there's something they're doing with it - rather than just having run out of time, or something. What I mind instead is that the whole idea of some kind of evil Jesus feels a bit...on the nose. What, exactly, is Mephisto going to do with that? Do they just want to replay his whole shtick of corrupting the faith, like he did with Zakarum before? Or what? I feel like this is something Blizzard seems to be suffering from in general, across their games: they are too in love with the idea of mystery for mystery's sake. All their plots are devoid of goals or endgames, they are just giant teasers for nondescript, vague, ominous threats at some point in the future. All we've got is "evil demon gonna do evil things!" - and it's REALLY hard to get excited for that because it's just such a general, empty threat. Oh no, one of the Prime Evils is going to something sinister you say? THAT IS SUCH A SURPRISE. Heck for all the flat affect of Diablo 3's story, at least we had some concrete events - Diablo becoming a unified evil and attacking the High Heavens directly, or Malthael trying to purge all demonic essence from Sanctuary even if it kills humanity. Clear, direct goals - which makes for clear, relatable plots. None of the ohoho what's the next move going to be that no one saw or predicted or had any idea about?! Fuck that is annoying when it comes to narratives, because it feels like you're being led on as a reader/player. Without direction, you can't evaluate actions - which means you feel like nothing you do matters because it'll all be usurped by the 4D-chess narrative anyway. You can't develop emotional attachment to anything in the story because you have no idea what's going on or where things are taking you. All you get is some kind of meta-reassurance that you're the good guys so surely anything you do must be alright in the end. Boring as FUCK.

And then there's the whole thing with the Burned Knights which feels completely superfluous and irrelevant. Did they add that just to redeem Prava somehow? To find a scapegoat faction in the Cathedral that we can off and then get back to neutral with that faction for future stories? Did they just need some ostensible impetus for Neyrelle to be on the run? Her being compelled by the soulstone and her choice at the end of D4 wasn't enough, or something? Or was this just a case of "we want to use knight models for enemies, work them in somehow" top-down narrative design? This whole thing didn't go anywhere, didn't do anything, and didn't bring anything of substance or note to the story.

Anyway...

The gameplay is fine. Nothing's massively different, but lots of small changes that make things better. Gear simplified, difficulties more distinct, more endgame activities. Fine. All okay. Forced multiplayer is a giant fuck-you that I'll never engage with, but considering the drop rate of those temper-reset scrolls so far I also won't have to so it's whatever. Masterworking is still an infuriating RNG fiesta, but the materials are easier to farm. Kurast Undercity I can't really evaluate yet because it's locked my game TWICE so far (character doesn't load in after taking a portal, dungeon is there, mercenary is there, player character never appears and game can't progress) so I'll have to wait until they fix it. But it seems like a somewhat unexciting mode because it really is very simplistic and exists purely for them to test out customizable drops. Which is great as a reward system, just unfortunately tied to what looks like not-the-greatest gameplay. NMDs are a complete dud now - who'd ever do them? Pit seems fine, but until I get to the very high levels and see if it's still 2 minutes trash 10 minutes boss (which would suck donkey cock) I can't say if it's an improvement or not. The glyph leveling does seem better, though. Ironically, I'm having the most fun with the Infernal Hordes - which is probably a bad sign. The season theme is complete trash. Fighting the Realmwalker isn't fun. Doing the Portal dungeon isn't fun. The rewards feel like a joke. Oh great an elixir for the occasional extra drop? Fuck off.

Spiritborn is kinda... eh. It's a Monk with almost offensively exoticized flavor. None of that flavor feels organic or genuine - the height of cultural appropriation, some Western games company looking for "exotic" cultures to mine and randomly assembling something vaguely Mesoamerican-slash-African that they slap the "spirit" label on like it's a bad South Park episode. Let's call it "doing an Ubisoft". Vomit. I'd love for some GENUINE cultural exploration, but this ain't it. This is appropriation. Mechanically, the class is fine. Because Monk was fine. Yeah some tuning issues but whatever, it's the fresh new hotness I'm okay with it being OP. Better than being underpowered or boring. I feel they missed the mark on mechanical identity, but maybe they'll evolve it a bit in the future. But I mean, come on - this is just a Monk. Really, that's just what it is.

My main is, of course, a Sorc (as it has been since Diablo 1) and I'm quite happy with how that works - though it's mostly because it works like it always does. So maybe I shouldn't be happy with that, even though I enjoy it. I kinda hope someone will discover an out-there build that's novel and interesting, but until then I'll happily spam my Lightning Spears and do Infernal Hordes all day like I did in S5. Yay. I'm sure I'll have fun until the end of the weekend, and then I'll shelve the game until next season. And I sure as Hell am not going to ever play that campaign again or ever remember any of it save the Big Dog. Which was cool. THAT was a boss. THAT was Diablo flavor. Hope to see it as an Uber soon.

- - - Updated - - -

Something I'm struggling with gameplay wise is gearing. I think it's intentional and I just wasn't aware of it, but hitting a wall at 750 gear before you even get into Torment difficulties feels like I'm "out" of scaling options that aren't just farming paragon levels, and there isn't really a clear path from ending the story -> ... something like there used to be. I know people didn't like NMDs but at least you could just push through tiers of those and feel like you were making progress. Now I log in and wonder if the Pit, or NMDs (which now seem completely pointless?), or Undercity, or helltides, or world bosses, or whispers, or something else I should be spending my time on. It's an infinitely better problem that having no content to engage with but I'm really struggling to understand WTF the priority order is of all of this content so that I can come up with a gameplay loop.

I'm not sure I understand what your problem is.

How are you "hitting a wall"? You get a chunk of 750 gear, slap on some aspects and do a few tempers, and then go into Torment 1 and start grinding on the ancestrals. Why would you... not go to Torment? T1 is super accessible, you can do it practically immediately after hitting max.

As for the activities... well the whole point, kinda, is that you can do whatever you want. The Pit is the only special thing, really, since that gives you something unique (glyph XP). Everything else is just grinding gear in various forms and through various activities. Do the ones you like. Don't do the ones you don't like. Kill demons get gear - the Diablo formula. That's how it's always been, at the core.

[Nzx]

I'm not sure I understand what your problem is.

How are you "hitting a wall"? You get a chunk of 750 gear, slap on some aspects and do a few tempers, and then go into Torment 1 and start grinding on the ancestrals. Why would you... not go to Torment? T1 is super accessible, you can do it practically immediately after hitting max.

As for the activities... well the whole point, kinda, is that you can do whatever you want. The Pit is the only special thing, really, since that gives you something unique (glyph XP). Everything else is just grinding gear in various forms and through various activities. Do the ones you like. Don't do the ones you don't like. Kill demons get gear - the Diablo formula. That's how it's always been, at the core.

I have started into T1, and I have no problem surviving in T2 - just that my damage isn't close to sufficient. I think the problem I didn't really articulate very well is that in the old formula you stacked yourself out in legendaries, then you replaced them all with sacred legendaries, then with ancestral legendaries, and there was some variance across each of those tiers in item level. Now, it's just 750 and then items stop unless you get ancestrals, which are 800 with no variance. It's probably objectively better than the old way, it's just a bit jarring.

Similarly, the new content is probably objectively better, but a bit jarring. I really enjoy the new stuff - infernal hordes and undercity most of all - I think maybe I just don't understand enough about the million currencies (masterworking currency, glyph xp, boss summoning ingredients) or enough about all the different content to understand what I should be doing for my goals.

These are realistically really good problems to have, just is a strange feeling in contrast to the launch version of D4 which was terribly light in content.

Thanks for the reply.

[XDurionX]

The ending is super weak.

This. But that's probably my only gripe. TBH i really love it. Not having to make a 12-dimensional analysis when judging an item is great. Not having to care about picking up mats is a blessing. Everything accountwide. Lovely enemy density. Helltides are great, infernal hordes are great, pit is great, Undercity is great. Not tried citadel yet.

[Mevaya]

To be fair, only one Diablo game had a Paladin to start. D3 added Crusader almost 2 years after the launch and was only thematically similar to Paladin.

A bit of misplaced nostalgia or expectation here. An "armored warrior" has existed in every version of Diablo; Warrior (D1), Barbarian (D2), Barbarian (D3), Barbarian (DI), and Barbarian (D4).

I mean thats just a different name for the same class.
Whats missing is a holy-themed class, and i suspect theyll be introducing that around an angel/heaven-themed expansion.

[Kumorii]

I mean thats just a different name for the same class.
Whats missing is a holy-themed class, and i suspect theyll be introducing that around an angel/heaven-themed expansion.

Wouldn't surprise me it's next based on the ending of Vessel of Hatred.

[deenman]

Not feeling it. I get they don't want to tread the same path four games in a row, but I can't imagine a Diablo game without some sort of holy warrior/knight class. Paladin, crusader, you name it. I'll probably come back when they get to it.

its insane how the only character than uses shields in this game are necromancers kekw,meanwile in actual good games like grim dawn,you can make shield builds in pretty much any class combo

[nvaelz]

Story was fine, however, the non-story quests tied to the campaign are stupid af and IDK what the developers were thinking when they decided to add random "kill 10 monsters" to collect 1 diamond, "get level 3" to collect 1 diamond random misiions into the campaign story line... I don't need Blizzard to backseat game me into "unlocking" the things to do in the game, super intrusive and annoying quest design.

Want to play hardcore since I think it could be fun, but collecting all the altars of aids and unlocking renown and doing that awful "systems unlock" campaign again IDK, don't have it in me.

The amount of systems they addon top of this game is so stupid, the seasonal quests, the extra seasonal quests, the follower quests, all of that is stupid, anything that gives a loot bag is stupid.

-----

On a positive note, this season is better than the previous which was better than the previous. Actually can't wait for the NEXT season so I don't have to "unlock" the game before playing it, since having too many things to unlock is super annoying. I should actually unlock hardcore but it's so damn stupid and boring and there's really no good point in forcing players to unlock these stupid things to enjoy the game(yes you need to unlock the extra skill points to play the game).

I mean if I cleaned up that mess of game design now I could enjoy the next season more right?

-----

Actually on a positive note:
Torment difficulties feel better, the leveling pace feels better, the loot drops feel better(less annoying to salvage all the time).
The materials and different avenues to grind feel better, feels more connected now, I'm not annoyed to get my bag filled with infernal horde keys anymore, small adjustments like that is what Blizzard is good at.

-----

On a negative note:

However, the big adjustments that make good games is something Blizzard is lacking, almost like they're hiring mobile games devs that want to create exploitware while still keeping, narrowly to the basis of creating a real genuine game. The rune system feels stupid for that exact reason, it's just another "system" that we're obviously grinding through to get to the end of systems. D2 had it right with the excitement of finding a rune, D4 doesn't have it right, D4 runes are just more modifiers, more buffs, more incrementals, it's soulless.

-----

Anyways, TLDR
Even tho D4 is a soulless systems mess with bad ideas all over, it's still "currently" a better version of itself, like a turd that was polished to be a shinier turd basically.
And I'm enjoying it right now, but I won't play hardcore cuz the quest/renown design is trash.

Also, since people might actually enjoy the loot bag reputation grinds, I'll reiterate my statements; IF the game has a good design when it comes to for example boss summoning materials, then the loot bags that provide those lose their value, since they're uselessly annoying. And the temporality of gaining a burst of boss mats from a loot bag is stupid, and the "weekly" loot bags are stupid, but maybe I'm wrong, maybe it doesn't matter, I just feel that it takes away from the game and creates an extra reason to do things in the game that shouldn't be neccessary and by that makes the game worse overall.


Also, last feedback and it's huge.
THE POTIONS ARE SUPER ANNOYING, if I have to literally configure my gaming pace after the 20/30 minute potion pops for much longer I'm definitely gonna hate this game if only because of that, it's such a damn awful experience to have to pace according to pots all the time, atleast increase the duration to like 2! Hours, 30 min is way too short.

Overall the game feels fractured in so many different ways. I had a moment where I really liked the game, I had just unlocked pentinent difficulty and tried it out, felt kinda fun in a ethereal type of way, that it didn't really belong in the game but in myself, and after I had calculated that it's stupid and its only for leveling alts with your heirlooms, since the leveling grind 1-60 is a campaign/systems unlock journey, much like how doing a higher torment is not efficient since it's all about al dente pace.

I mean there really is no value in doing higher difficulty since the rewards are the same, the process of unlocking Torment 1 is really easy, the rewards we get from increasing the difficulty after that is incremental at best.

What D2 had right was that in Normal you got normal loot, in Nightmare you got normal/nightmare loot, in Hell you got normal/nightmare/hell loot. It had soul, unlike the soulless incremental grind D4 is. You can argue that we unlock "Torment loot" after reaching level 60, but 1-60 isn't really anything, it's a tutorial for the endgame XD, it's a joke.

Conclusion:

D4 Bad.

[Biomega]

I think the problem I didn't really articulate very well is that in the old formula you stacked yourself out in legendaries, then you replaced them all with sacred legendaries, then with ancestral legendaries, and there was some variance across each of those tiers in item level. Now, it's just 750 and then items stop unless you get ancestrals, which are 800 with no variance. It's probably objectively better than the old way, it's just a bit jarring.

I think people are having trouble with qualitative comparisons not codified in a simple metric. It's easy to go "ah-ha, 900 > 800, therefore better!" and that was what a lot of gearing was like for many people earlier in D4. Now it's a lot more about the specifics, not the "big number" - because as you say, that's pretty much just static very quickly. It's just 750 vs. 800, that's it. No 730 no 770, no nothing. So now you need to be very meticulous about what affixes there are and how those stack up against your build and what it wants, and that's fiddly and involved and requires more work and more understanding. That's why to many people it feels like you're "hitting a wall" as everything you get is the same "big number" - even though these items are VASTLY different in actual power level.

It'll take time for people to digest this new paradigm, but I'd wager it's ultimately better for the game.

[Yriel]

Gear simplified, difficulties more distinct, more endgame activities. Fine. All okay.

I really don't see the point in the 4 difficulties before torment. I leveled on hard and it was just annoying, the mobs took too long to kill, it was not fun. But on the other hand you don't find enough mats to constantly enchant your gear along the leveling.
So the way is, at least for me, to level to 60 on normal, get 750 gear, enchant it and go straight to torment 1. So what are those 3 other difficulties for? People who level exclusively in groups?
Completely pointless imo.

I'm not a fan of this 750->800 gear either. It's fun getting gear upgrades and just some minor stat with a better roll doesn't do it for me, i'm not that much of a perfectionist.

Also i'm disapponted by the new class. It's very powerful, no doubt, but it really has no new exciting mechanics, it's just "we slap a spirit animal animation on an existing ability and thats it". It's a bit boring to play for me, honestly.

And yeah, the new endgame activities is another timed dungeon with affixes and a raid. I guess thats all Blizzards knows to do.

[Kumorii]

I really hope they don't do more exclusive multiplayer stuff.

Took quite of a break and went back in, been enjoying it. I think most stuff go together really well, how all events kind of play into each other. You do X which gives you rewards plust to do Y which gives you gear and stuff and material to do Z. I think it's a nice rotation and I have a reason to do most stuff. I don't see the reason for Nightmare Dungeons though? Rewards seems very lackluster and I don't get anything material wise that makes it worth it... maybe I'm missing something.

Story for me is kinda...eh. I was happily surprised since reading comments here made it way worse in my head. So I guess that worked in my favor. I don't think it's good though and the entire DLC feels like a pre-patch story stretched over a full expansion. It's a prologue to the real story, which kinda blows.

[Zelk]

Got bored halfway through torment 2. Endgame is still lacking. Honestly feels like if Poe didn't have maps and you just cycled through Sanctum Delve and Heist. At least Spiritborn is fun.

[Soimu]

It is it just doesn't feel like a complete story. It's very much part 1 of a greater narrative.

Well duhhh. More expansions and seasons are coming.

[nvaelz]

For reference I'm currently 234 paragon brainlessly farming monsters that you literally 1shot is the best method of gaining experience/loot. Which means that higher difficulty with more resistance from enemies is always inefficient. The only reason to press higher difficulty is to level up glyphs, but the only reason to have higher level glyphs is to do more damage, so... the progression system is incredibly incremental and it's so boring when you take your time to think about what that means. You should spam torment 1 infernal hordes, with a very efficient build to gain experience, to gain loot, to gain gold.

Also knowing that the actual endgame is a joke, the spiritborn being about 10.000 times stronger than any other class is a testament to how the AWFUL game design actually works. It's all just dumb incrementals that are supposed to feel exciting?

What did they say again about numbers not being as high as in Diablo 3? The thing that now is a lie and the trademark insult from Blizzard. Why is there even tempering, all you do with tempering is dilute your own potential, you have infinite choice in how to setup your character but all the choices contradict eachother and narrowly puts you into the optimal route which is the dilution,

I guess the good thing is none of that matters because all you should do is grind torment 1 with any aoe splashy instant damage high mobility build, so actual power imbalance doesnt matter, but power imbalance wouldn't be a thing if the game wasn't so very stupid when it comes to the exponential math which really holds no value, just look at Diablo 2, static numbers are good.

The pride Blizzard takes in their "ITEMIZATION REBORN" or whatever is a joke, it's not something to celebrate, it's insulting, the game is really bad, it's just bait, and the endgame is equally bad now as it was before, once you realize how little effort has been put into making it good... It's all about selling the product so the early game, the prospect of progression all works out well in the world of exponential math, it's not interesting later on tho.

Also, the Dark Citadel might be interesting once or twice, but once again Blizzard takes on too much pride in their work, it might be fun solving a puzzle once, but solving the same puzzle 5000 times to collect loot bags that contain boring items/currencies isn't something with much longevity.

Sure you can enjoy D4 endgame for two(actually one) reasons. Make number go UP, make gold go UP. There's the only reasons. Sorry to say I don't see the low IQ value in watching arbitrary numbers go UP like those numbers and the size of those numbers actually matter? because they don't.


-----

Let's talk some more about numbers. The Dark Citadel achievements of speedracing the content, the Kurast Undercity challenge of beating the clock, the Pit scaling of playing optimal often broken and bugged specs to maximize the damage, and beating the clock. The Helltide where we rush in set times to open boxes before the clock runs out, the potions we use before the duration expires. The wait scheduling we face when wanting to kill World Bosses.

It's like when they came and fiddled with their modern tainted fingers in D2 to add Terror Zones, obviously they had to add a clock to it, because time is what really matters in Blizzard game, expiration dates in EVERYTHING is what matters. I don't know why but I'm sure there's a economic reason to pull us around like this. It's not good game design tho, it's actually just incredibly nasty.

Anyways TL;DR , my current opinion about D4 is:

Endgame progression is an unfinished product, it's like a foundation without a house on it, while it pretends to have a house on it.
The expansion is a scam, it's a DLC, that's why they sold it for 40.
The game is fun until you realize it's bad, because you hope it will keep being fun, but you'll realize it's not, unless you are one of two types of people, people that like gold number go up, people that like damage number go up.
Sorry to say but if I write a number on paper; and begin adding zeroes behind it, I don't get exctatic and have my dopamine receptors trigger with every zero I add, it's really just depressive.

Also, if Blizzard wasn't such a consumer despising company they would actually respect their consumers and call the expansion Vessel of Hatred Part 1, since it's only half an expansion. Or maybe they want us to get baited into their cosmetics shop in a few weeks with their "major patch" but the patch is just content, it's not about fixing the game it's about steering attention, it's disgusting, but I'm really happy I have no interest in buying cosmetics in that garbage game, people need to get fired, or management need to hire real outside consultants that aren't speedracers/twitchstreamers numbergouppers.

[Biomega]

I really don't see the point in the 4 difficulties before torment. I leveled on hard and it was just annoying, the mobs took too long to kill, it was not fun. But on the other hand you don't find enough mats to constantly enchant your gear along the leveling.
So the way is, at least for me, to level to 60 on normal, get 750 gear, enchant it and go straight to torment 1. So what are those 3 other difficulties for? People who level exclusively in groups?
Completely pointless imo.

Might just be a you problem. I found myself upping the difficulty whenever I got some significant jump in power (correct aspect for my build, a defining unique, whatever) and it worked just fine - the XP differences are far from insignificant. Especially when leveling alts, it was a great scale to make use of. Certainly better than what we had before. Do keep in mind that difficulties exist for everyone, not just one particular player - so even if YOU never made use of something, that doesn't mean other people didn't. The new scale is just pretty much strictly better than what we had before. And that's true at the low end AND the high - T4 is actually something that takes work to get into and be successful at.

I'm not a fan of this 750->800 gear either. It's fun getting gear upgrades and just some minor stat with a better roll doesn't do it for me, i'm not that much of a perfectionist.

You're still getting upgrades, you just don't see them as one big number. The difference between a 750 piece with terrible stats and a 750 piece with really good stats is quite big. You're not grinding for tiny differences here. You just need to think about the differences more than just going "big number go up?" which is not a bad thing, really - since it teaches people to be more discerning about their gear, and makes them more wary of proper configuration.

Also i'm disapponted by the new class. It's very powerful, no doubt, but it really has no new exciting mechanics, it's just "we slap a spirit animal animation on an existing ability and thats it". It's a bit boring to play for me, honestly.

I agree. It didn't do it for me, either. This is... just a Monk with jungle flavor tacked on. And it suffers from some of the same design mistakes all other classes suffer from, i.e. there's a core toolset that almost never changes and you just swap out the damage skill based on the build. Not a good sign.

- - - Updated - - -

For reference I'm currently 234 paragon brainlessly farming monsters that you literally 1shot is the best method of gaining experience/loot. Which means that higher difficulty with more resistance from enemies is always inefficient.

I mean... you're not wrong, but that's how it's always been in this kind of game? You farm the highest difficulty you can do efficiently. That was how player count worked in D2, how GR levels worked in D3, and how it works in D4. Farming at high efficiency at the very highest setting was always the province of the most optimized builds only. That's a core concept of the genre, really, and it's why we have a wide difficulty scale to begin with.

Also knowing that the actual endgame is a joke, the spiritborn being about 10.000 times stronger than any other class is a testament to how the AWFUL game design actually works. It's all just dumb incrementals that are supposed to feel exciting?

Another core principle of the game, though I do agree that the Spiritborn being so much better than everything feels a little bad. Gaps between classes will always exist, but they're too big right now. Especially dumb builds like Evade spam are not great to exist in this kind of ecosystem. I get that the shiny new class should be great, that makes sense; but they overdid it.

Let's talk some more about numbers. The Dark Citadel achievements of speedracing the content, the Kurast Undercity challenge of beating the clock, the Pit scaling of playing optimal often broken and bugged specs to maximize the damage, and beating the clock. The Helltide where we rush in set times to open boxes before the clock runs out, the potions we use before the duration expires. The wait scheduling we face when wanting to kill World Bosses.

The existence of the clock is kind of important, because it enforces performance. It's a benchmark that helps people choose difficulty by setting some kind of bar. That's not an inherently bad thing, because it protects those with less knowledge about the game from constantly wasting their time. It gives you something to check your build against, an objective measure of performance beyond just success/failure. That's very helpful to a lot of people, who'd otherwise get stuck in inefficient loops because they can't properly assess their difficulty choice. "You need to be this tall to ride"-type mechanics help them make proper use of the difficulty segmentation system.

Also, if Blizzard wasn't such a consumer despising company they would actually respect their consumers and call the expansion Vessel of Hatred Part 1, since it's only half an expansion.

That does leave a very foul taste, I agree. The story was almost offensively bad and as I wrote elsewhere, VoH was really the first time I felt like I wasn't getting my money's worth. They are definitely improving the gameplay and many things are great changes to see, but... For $40 I really expected more than this.

[Mojo03]

I think it ultimately still has the same issue WOW has

It's fun to gear up, but there's nothing to really do with the upgraded gear that's different other than the same stuff tuned to higher numbers, which ultimately doesn't feel like a compelling incentive to keep playing

I want to feel like all the effort I'm putting into gearing up has a payoff and it just doesn't, nothing really changes and all the work you do to get that gear becomes pointless once the new season starts, so it's not like your work even lasts. It's all ephemeral, so why bother?

I do sort of like that it has a seasonal track. Then I can come in and complete that, get unique seasonal things, and feel like I accomplished something. I just don't really see a reason to keep playing after that. Maybe that's fine, but it does feel disappointing and like there's a lot of room for improvement there that seems to get ignored in this and in WOW.

[Iliena]

I think I will tap out of this season, I'm nearly paragon 200 and have experienced everything in game playing an evade Spiritborn, which is busted! Apart from the raid (I want SSF mode!) and as talked about by nvaelz endgame is still lacking for an ARPG.

While I like the stuff you can do at 60 for gearing, paragons and farming matt's etc that all is much improved over the base game, but for me I want an endgame objective to push for! This is still missing from D4!

[Biomega]

I want to feel like all the effort I'm putting into gearing up has a payoff and it just doesn't, nothing really changes and all the work you do to get that gear becomes pointless once the new season starts, so it's not like your work even lasts. It's all ephemeral, so why bother?

People keep saying this for WoW as well as Diablo, but really - do you actually want a system of infinite, persistent growth? A system where you'll never catch up if you drop things, and anyone who doesn't play this like it's their job can't compete? Just try and imagine what, say, WoW would be like if you kept on progressing for 20 years with no resets - there'd be no way in hell to ever get in.

There's really only two solutions: either 1. make progression end eventually, which just means many who reach that point stop playing; or 2. make progression reset periodically so everyone gets a chance to compete again. People haven't properly thought these complaints through. There's a good reason seasonal resets exist: they make things less stressful for long-term players, and also create points of entry for short-term players.

You really, really do not want the kind of incumbency of power that comes with a constant, forever scaling progression system. We had but a glimpse of that in D3 with infinite Paragon - it was absolute misery.

Are seasons perfect? No. But they're better than the alternative, that's for sure.

[KrayZ33]

Got it (both D4+expansion) on expansion release.
I'm enjoying it, seems to be built around having fun for 3-4 weeks and then wait, which is what I want out of games like these, anything else feels just utterly boring to me because it takes too long.

Still think that D3s skill-glyph thingy was a lot more diverse than the skill-enchantments. Noticed that during beta and it's still not a good skill tree.
Other than that, campaign is almost unplayable/unenjoyable in this day because I was max lvl in Act2 and one shotted all the bosses.
Now perhaps someone remembers that you have to kill Elias like 4 times back to back and every time he dies, a new one comes through a door.
Haven't had such a good laugh in a while... it was so freaking silly when he died in 0,1s, just to pop up again saying "YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD ME BUT GUESS AG-aaarrrrgh" *dead again*

Kinda stupid idea to not allow to increase difficulty past the way to easy ones you have available until you clear the campaign.

Game has awesome voice acting though.
Donan was quite entertaining to listen to.

[Mojo03]

People keep saying this for WoW as well as Diablo, but really - do you actually want a system of infinite, persistent growth? A system where you'll never catch up if you drop things, and anyone who doesn't play this like it's their job can't compete? Just try and imagine what, say, WoW would be like if you kept on progressing for 20 years with no resets - there'd be no way in hell to ever get in.

There's really only two solutions: either 1. make progression end eventually, which just means many who reach that point stop playing; or 2. make progression reset periodically so everyone gets a chance to compete again. People haven't properly thought these complaints through. There's a good reason seasonal resets exist: they make things less stressful for long-term players, and also create points of entry for short-term players.

You really, really do not want the kind of incumbency of power that comes with a constant, forever scaling progression system. We had but a glimpse of that in D3 with infinite Paragon - it was absolute misery.

Are seasons perfect? No. But they're better than the alternative, that's for sure.

I don't know how you interpreted that as I'm pushing for a system of infinite growth

I'm actually sort of fine with the seasonal system, but there needs to be compelling reasons/unique experiences to want to participate in the season and grow the character, which right now there really isnt much in this or WOW beyond characters does bigger number against bigger numbers. I even said I sort like in D4 that there is at least a seasonal track that you can complete and feel some sort of accomplishment/get unique collectables

Aspirational and pinnacle content is more what I'm thinking

Maybe it's walled and you need a certain gear ilvl to unlock it or you need to go through an attunement or a trial. Maybe it's some kind of holistic horizontal progression system. Or through the season you chip away at the defenses of a fortress and on week 7 you chip away enough that you can penetrate it and fight whats inside, which is badass enemies that are unique in some way and offer something unique. It doesn't just unlock, you earned it somehow. Something. Pay me and I'll come up with more elaborate solutions, but the point being there just isn't much reason to keep progressing because there's no compelling payoff for it and the work you do do gets largely invalidated or diluted (in wow) the next season

[Biomega]

I don't know how you interpreted that as I'm pushing for a system of infinite growth

Because when you said

It's all ephemeral, so why bother?

You must have either meant infinite growth or single-player games that are just play-and-done. And I chose the more charitable interpretation.

I'm actually sort of fine with the seasonal system, but there needs to be compelling reasons/unique experiences to want to participate in the season and grow the character, which right now there really isnt much in this or WOW beyond characters does bigger number against bigger numbers.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're not talking about power progression, do you mean like, trophies or cosmetics or something? They tried that. People were all up in arms when they removed stuff like the Challenge Mode cosmetics because OMG just because I couldn't play at that time now I can never get this?! You can never please everyone.

Aspirational and pinnacle content is more what I'm thinking

I mean in the abstract sure I agree give us more of this, but how does this tie into your complaint about things being ephemeral? Are you suggesting they add aspirational content that you can only do if you've been playing from the start, or something? Or what? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Or are you just changing topics completely from talking about seasonal stuff to just talking about there needing to be more endgame?

Maybe it's walled and you need a certain gear ilvl to unlock it or you need to go through an attunement or a trial.

So how's that supposed to work for someone who just starts playing? Either they can get into it right away with just a little effort - in which case that's just like a season since you're effectively saying old power doesn't mean anything; or they'll have to play for as long as older players did in order to unlock it - in which case new players will be confronted with a giant FUCK YOU sign that says nonono you can't play the new hot shit until you've played the OLD shit for a year or two first, please, which I'm sure won't turn off new players at all will it.

This sounds a bit like a having your cake and eating it too demand, no offense.

It doesn't just unlock, you earned it somehow.

There's nothing wrong with that in principle, but you haven't thought through the structural problem behind it - there's no way, structurally speaking, that makes something both require long-term commitment but also be accessible to short-term commitment. You either require people to play for a long time, in which case new players feel screwed over; or you make it accessible to new players, in which case old players feel screwed over. You can't have both. Logically can't. That's not a "pay me and I'll solve it"-type of problem, that's you making a logically paradoxical demand.