Vessel of Hatred (D4 first DLC)

[Mojo03]

Because when you said

You must have either meant infinite growth or single-player games that are just play-and-done. And I chose the more charitable interpretation.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're not talking about power progression, do you mean like, trophies or cosmetics or something? They tried that. People were all up in arms when they removed stuff like the Challenge Mode cosmetics because OMG just because I couldn't play at that time now I can never get this?! You can never please everyone.


I mean in the abstract sure I agree give us more of this, but how does this tie into your complaint about things being ephemeral? Are you suggesting they add aspirational content that you can only do if you've been playing from the start, or something? Or what? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Or are you just changing topics completely from talking about seasonal stuff to just talking about there needing to be more endgame?


So how's that supposed to work for someone who just starts playing? Either they can get into it right away with just a little effort - in which case that's just like a season since you're effectively saying old power doesn't mean anything; or they'll have to play for as long as older players did in order to unlock it - in which case new players will be confronted with a giant FUCK YOU sign that says nonono you can't play the new hot shit until you've played the OLD shit for a year or two first, please, which I'm sure won't turn off new players at all will it.

This sounds a bit like a having your cake and eating it too demand, no offense.


There's nothing wrong with that in principle, but you haven't thought through the structural problem behind it - there's no way, structurally speaking, that makes something both require long-term commitment but also be accessible to short-term commitment. You either require people to play for a long time, in which case new players feel screwed over; or you make it accessible to new players, in which case old players feel screwed over. You can't have both. Logically can't. That's not a "pay me and I'll solve it"-type of problem, that's you making a logically paradoxical demand.

Gear power being ephemeral can be fine. Like I said, I'm not totally against seasons, but give me a compelling reason and some kind of payoff to want to progress it beyond higher numbers. Yes, that can be cosmetics, trophies, unique experiences, etc.

Challenge mode gear being removed was/is dumb. Adding new cosmetics doesn't mean old ones need to go away. Content should be additive. If in the case it's FOMO, it can come back in a limited time thing sporatically

Its fine that theres stuff new players can't immediately do. Wandering into western plaguelands as a lvl 11 undead mage from Tirisfal, made me really want to level up and fight stuff in western plaguelands. It's good. Gives them something to look forward to and a reason to want to progress. That's the point. If it's seasonal stuff it wouldn't be walled off by a year or 2 or whatever. If it's too high of a grind, it can be adjusted

[Beefhammer]

It is it just doesn't feel like a complete story. It's very much part 1 of a greater narrative.

It's like I said in 2019. They had assurances they could tell there entire story so we are getting like 3-5 expansions.

[Biomega]

Gear power being ephemeral can be fine. Like I said, I'm not totally against seasons, but give me a compelling reason and some kind of payoff to want to progress it beyond higher numbers. Yes, that can be cosmetics, trophies, unique experiences, etc.

Ah, I see. That's fair enough. I see nothing wrong with that. But isn't D4... kinda doing exactly that? Each season has its own cosmetics, titles, and whatnot. They have a whole progression track for it. Two, arguably.

Its fine that theres stuff new players can't immediately do.

Fine for you as an established player. But a new player coming in because of a hot cool thing and being told "sorry, back of the line starts there, please" and being forced to redo old content first is a major turnoff for those players. Many won't even bother. It's part of the reason WoW doesn't make people go and do raid tiers in order - because most people don't want that and will just not bother if you force them. You may think that there's some sense of progression and whatnot because you've done it all, but data and historical precedent show that to new players, those things don't actually matter all that much. And even to returning players, their highest priority lies with participating in current content. And if you gate that, they just... won't play at all and go somewhere else.

All these notions of progression, immersion, etc. sound cool on paper but don't play well in practice.

[Mojo03]

Ah, I see. That's fair enough. I see nothing wrong with that. But isn't D4... kinda doing exactly that? Each season has its own cosmetics, titles, and whatnot. They have a whole progression track for it. Two, arguably.


Fine for you as an established player. But a new player coming in because of a hot cool thing and being told "sorry, back of the line starts there, please" and being forced to redo old content first is a major turnoff for those players. Many won't even bother. It's part of the reason WoW doesn't make people go and do raid tiers in order - because most people don't want that and will just not bother if you force them. You may think that there's some sense of progression and whatnot because you've done it all, but data and historical precedent show that to new players, those things don't actually matter all that much. And even to returning players, their highest priority lies with participating in current content. And if you gate that, they just... won't play at all and go somewhere else.

All these notions of progression, immersion, etc. sound cool on paper but don't play well in practice.

I did say twice I like that Diablo does that much, but there's a lot of room for improvement.

Earning things feels good. So does making progress towards goals. So does having things to look forward to. Eliminating discomfort and making everything accessible sounds good on paper to attract the most amount of people, but makes the games bland and uninteresting in practice because theres nothing to progress towards beyond higher numbers. You may turn off some by making the game less accessible, but you also turn off some by making the game too accessible. The difference is no one cares about or respects the game that's too accessible.

I think you're captain spocking my captain kirk ideas

We probably just wont see eye to eye on this

[Biomega]

Earning things feels good. So does making progress towards goals. So does having things to look forward to. Eliminating discomfort and making everything accessible sounds good on paper to attract the most amount of people, but makes the games bland and uninteresting in practice

But that's a matter of degrees. You still need to try hard and progress. Just because you can jump into the current raid tier in WoW, for example, doesn't mean you get Cutting Edge for free. It's just that the progression is focused - it is far from absent. Because redoing old content to many people actually doesn't feel like progression; it feels like make-work. They're redoing something while other people are doing something new.

It's the same reason single-player games don't make you go back and play the old ones, for example. Oh you want to play Dragon Age: The Veilguard? Nuh-uh, you have to play Dragon Age: Origins first and start there. Can you imagine how much that would piss people off? But just because you can jump straight into the current title doesn't mean there's no progression - there's just a different kind of progression.

And this becomes amplified many times over in multiplayer games, where people may want to play with others. Oh your friend who quit two years ago wants to come back? Too bad, they have to first do two years worth of old content before they can play the new content with you. That'd be a terrible system. But just because they get to play with you right away doesn't mean they suddenly have "no progression".

There's a reason these seasonal models are so prevalent: they work, and they cater to people's preferences. Sure it's a trade-off in certain aspects, but everything is.

[Edge-]

https://x.com/pezradar/status/1845938130735845465?s=46

Evadeborn build is bugged which is why it's so strong, gonna get hit with the 'ol nerfbat. Given the videos I've seen of the build...yeah, it's definitely fucking up the open world experience bigly and one of the risks of a shared world - other players builds matter a lot more than they would if you just ran shit yourself or in premade groups and can fuck with your ability to farm, yourself. It's good that it's getting fixed relatively quickly, and I'm ready for all the tears from players who thought they suddenly became incredibly skilled at the game by playing this build. Most folks seem to understand it's hilariously busted at least which is good, but the reddit posts and whatnot shall be delightful.

[Biomega]

Most folks seem to understand it's hilariously busted at least which is good, but the reddit posts and whatnot shall be delightful.

I doubt anyone who's ever seen the Evade Eagle build in practice ever thought "this is okay, this is working as intended". Anyone remotely sane, anyway.

But to be fair, Spiritborn mechanics are broken all over the place. Various damage multipliers don't quite work correctly and allow for massive multiplicative damage stacking - something that should sound familiar to people because that's basically how all the broken shit in D4 has worked ever since the beginning. And here we go again.

Spiritborn needs and likely will receive a number of nerfs; but I'd be interested in seeing if other classes will receive buffs, too.

[Maljinwo]

While the base game storyline was a snoozefest, the expansion is just a trailer for another $40 expansion huh

[Biomega]

While the base game storyline was a snoozefest, the expansion is just a trailer for another $40 expansion huh

It's not JUST that. The cliffhanger ending was annoying, but it's not the main problem. The story is shit irrespective of the ending.

[Maljinwo]

It's not JUST that. The cliffhanger ending was annoying, but it's not the main problem. The story is shit irrespective of the ending.

I mean, the base game got an audible 'wait that's it?' out of me
Vessel of Hatred couldn't even accomplish that. It was over so fast that I couldn't even care about having Akarat making an appearance

Not a single one of the main NPCs of Diablo 4 resonates with me. I think Vigo was probably the only one I liked

[chiddie]

I mean, the base game got an audible 'wait that's it?' out of me
Vessel of Hatred couldn't even accomplish that. It was over so fast that I couldn't even care about having Akarat making an appearance

Not a single one of the main NPCs of Diablo 4 resonates with me. I think Vigo was probably the only one I liked

Wait, are you playing ARPGs for the campaign?

Or, better, are you judging the value of whatever ARPG basing on how good the campaign tastes to you?

[Maljinwo]

Wait, are you playing ARPGs for the campaign?

Or, better, are you judging the value of whatever ARPG basing on how good the campaign tastes to you?

Wait, you arent?


Jokes aside, Im talking bout the campaign. Havent done any season 6 content yet because looking up a guide online and hold down mouse 2 for hours and hours will have to wait until im done playing sparking zero

[Edge-]

Wait, are you playing ARPGs for the campaign?

Or, better, are you judging the value of whatever ARPG basing on how good the campaign tastes to you?

While I get the sentiment - I don't give much of a shit about campaigns/narratives - Blizzard clearly does. They spent a fair bit of money, time, and energy both on the campaigns in D4 and promoting them through the marketing.

Many, many people play these games mostly for the campaign rather than for the seasonal gameplay.

[chiddie]

While I get the sentiment - I don't give much of a shit about campaigns/narratives - Blizzard clearly does. They spent a fair bit of money, time, and energy both on the campaigns in D4 and promoting them through the marketing.

Many, many people play these games mostly for the campaign rather than for the seasonal gameplay.

Don’t misunderstand me, I love doing the campaign ONCE. But the core of the game is not the campaign. I mean, you are totally allowed to play only it and judge the game basing on it, but it’s not the core of the game. Even if you are an Eternal player, the campaign is only the beginning and most of the activities start when the campaign ends.

It’s like playing back then Q3 Arena for the single player campaign. Yes… but no.

[Khaza-R]

Don’t misunderstand me, I love doing the campaign ONCE. But the core of the game is not the campaign. I mean, you are totally allowed to play only it and judge the game basing on it, but it’s not the core of the game. Even if you are an Eternal player, the campaign is only the beginning and most of the activities start when the campaign ends.

It’s like playing back then Q3 Arena for the single player campaign. Yes… but no.

Diablo attracts a pretty casual crowd compared to other ARPGs though. I wouldn't be suprised if the majority of players just beat the campaign and then don't touch it again.

[chiddie]

Diablo attracts a pretty casual crowd compared to other ARPGs though. I wouldn't be suprised if the majority of players just beat the campaign and then don't touch it again.

Yes, but even a casual knows that the core part of an ARPG is the endgame loop. “You” are free to spend 50 dollars for a 10 hours campaign but judging these types of games basing on the campaign only imho is poor judgement, regardless the game itself being good or not.

I mean, it’s not Baldur’s Gate where you essentially play for the story and the game ends when the story ends.

[Biomega]

Wait, are you playing ARPGs for the campaign?

Doesn't really matter whether you play it "for" the campaign.

You're getting the campaign. You're paying for it. You should demand and are entitled to quality.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with personally saying you don't care - I'm in the same boat. However even if I don't really care about the campaign, that doesn't mean I don't think it was shit.

[Edge-]

Yes, but even a casual knows that the core part of an ARPG is the endgame loop.

And a great many have zero interest in that, see all the complaining about seasonal content since launch. I don't get why you're like, refusing to accept that some people don't care about the grind and actually just want to play the campaign and hit max level and they're happy and satisfied.

I mean, it’s not Baldur’s Gate where you essentially play for the story and the game ends when the story ends.

As designed? No. As played? You'd be surprised.

[Aoewy]

Diablo attracts a pretty casual crowd compared to other ARPGs though. I wouldn't be suprised if the majority of players just beat the campaign and then don't touch it again.

Indeed. I know its just anecdotal evidence, but amongst my real life friends who do not play many games / do not put nearly as much time as I do in this hobby, some of them did in fact buy D4 on launch only to play the campaign and were entirely satisfied by the product they purchased.

[Trifle]

I agree. It didn't do it for me, either. This is... just a Monk with jungle flavor tacked on. And it suffers from some of the same design mistakes all other classes suffer from, i.e. there's a core toolset that almost never changes and you just swap out the damage skill based on the build. Not a good sign.

What do you think the core toolset is for the spiritborn that never changes? I've seen some pretty wildly different builds for it.